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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Awesome Step - Social Security Reform
    #2920769 - 07/23/04 04:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Reps. Sam Johnson (R-Texas), Pat Toomey (R-Penn.) and Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) have introduced sweeping new Social Security reform legislation. Based on "The 6.2 Percent Solution: A Plan for Reforming Social Security," by Michael Tanner, director of Cato's Project on Social Security Choice, the legislation will allow workers to voluntarily invest their half of the Social Security payroll tax through individual accounts.


Press conference on the Bill

This is an excellent step in the right direction. Allowing people to take ownership of the money that goes into social security and actually do what they want with around half of it will be incredibly advantageous from an economic and social standpoint. Definitely reassuring to see a few republicans that actually act upon what republicans are supposed to stand for.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2922384 - 07/24/04 12:50 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Privatization = Bad.
The end, By GernBlanston.


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2922396 - 07/24/04 12:57 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

GernBlanston=Wrong.

Social Security=Bad, Ponzi Scheme, If run by private individuals those individuals would be criminally indicted for running a pyramid scheme, fraud and diverting the funds to their own pet schemes.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: GernBlanston]
    #2922602 - 07/24/04 02:35 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GernBlanston said:
Privatization = Bad.
The end, By GernBlanston.



You would say the same right through its insolvency wouldn't you?


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2922718 - 07/24/04 03:29 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

We had a taste of privatisation with the railways in the UK. After years of catastrophic service, crashes, enormous fare rises and year on year stratospheric pay rises for the corporate directors, the railways were brought back under government control leaving the taxpayer with debts of billions.

We're having another taste of privatisation with the health service. Hiring private contractors to "clean" the hospitals. Of course it's been a catastrophe and led to an enormous rise in hospital superbugs caused by the unclean conditions. I hear the directors of the private companies are doing awfully well out of it tho.

As Gern so eloquently said - "Privatisation=Bad".


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Xlea321]
    #2923092 - 07/24/04 09:27 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Very interesting that your country is one of the few that succesfully transitioned from a failing Social Security system to a pseudo-Privatized system, and yet you chose to mention other (failed) privitization efforts in your country in order to make a point. I am not a British Economic Expert and as such I am not going to attempt to debate the two things you listed, suffice to say I am SURE that there is more than meets the eye to those privitization examples.

Can you explain to me why the Social Security Reform proposed is bad? People have the CHOICE(I suppose that's an even dirtier word for liberals than 'profit') to opt out about half of the money they'd pay towards social security every paycheck and invest it as they see fit. Noone who has long payed into social security is being deprived of anything, people are simply gaining more opportunities. I await the enlightenment Alex and Gern.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2923161 - 07/24/04 10:20 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So what would happen to the millions of people that instead of investing the money simply spent it on short term amenities? And then in their old age didn't have enough money to support themsleves due to lack of planning?

Would the government still have to care for these people or would they be left on the streets to die?


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,712
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: cb9fl]
    #2923184 - 07/24/04 10:33 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Leave em'


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: cb9fl]
    #2923187 - 07/24/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So what would happen to the millions of people that instead of investing the money simply spent it on short term amenities? And then in their old age didn't have enough money to support themsleves due to lack of planning?




The name of the game is personal responsibility. Under this program, a little less than half of the money you pay towards FICA every month would be available for one to do what he wishes with it. So in the event that someone does squander that 6.2% every paycheck for his entire life, he will have to make do with much less retirement money.

Quote:

Would the government still have to care for these people or would they be left on the streets to die?



I love it. The liberal hyperbole never gets old, it really doesn't. If a guy does waste every single 6.2% that he took from the money otherwise going towards social security, he would have to:

a) Make due with what he can still get from social security, which is a little more than half of what he could have gotten would he have kept all his money in social security, or around a sixth of what he could have had if he invested the 6.2% VERY conservatively.

AND/OR

b) Rely on family, friends, charity, etc, to help him get through old age.

AND/OR

c) Keep working.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,712
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2923189 - 07/24/04 10:39 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

a) Make due with what he can still get from social security, which is a little more than half of what he could have gotten would he have kept all his money in social security, or around a sixth of what he could have had if he invested the 6.2% VERY conservatively.

AND/OR

b) Rely on family, friends, charity, etc, to help him get through old age.

AND/OR

c) Keep working.




Exactly. Leave em'.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2923192 - 07/24/04 10:40 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

For one, I don't like social security much because it doesn't work and won't work. In this case, it basically damns social security - why not get rid of it completely then? It will, in effect, have everyone pay half the social security they normally do.

The amount you give is not proportional to the amount you will receive. No one will keep giving to SS


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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: vampirism]
    #2923207 - 07/24/04 10:53 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

For one, I don't like social security much because it doesn't work and won't work.



Agreed.

Quote:

In this case, it basically damns social security



An unbelievable amount of research went into this over a period of probably near a decade now. The plan does not damn social security for those who have been paying into it, it simply gives them another option.

Quote:

why not get rid of it completely then?



That would be ideal if somehow people who'd been paying into it all their lives weren't adversely affected. Unfortunately, the nature of this ponzi scheme is such that its reform needs to be a very well thought out and very gradual process.

Quote:

It will, in effect, have everyone pay half the social security they normally do.




If EVERYONE invested their 6.2% I think that would be an excellent situation, in fact the exact situation the proponents of this bill are hoping for. As I said before, the research that went into this bill is enormous(two think tanks, Cato and Heritage, spent large amounts of time and money researching this, in addition to what the congressmen did) and the math works out so that those who have payed into social security for X amount of time and choose to keep paying into it fully, are not negatively impacted.

Quote:

The amount you give is not proportional to the amount you will receive. No one will keep giving to SS



Not sure what you mean by the first sentence. People still have to give 6.2% to social security every month in order to ensure those still on it get what they have been promised. People unfortunately HAVE to keep giving to SS, at least for a certain amount of time, it is the nature of the beast.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 5 months, 30 days
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2923237 - 07/24/04 11:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You guys are not correct about what you pay to Soc Sec and Medicare. It is DOUBLE what you think it is. The 6.2% and 1.45% are matched by your employers, so in actuality you are paying 15.3% combined of your nominal gross pay (it is actually a smaller percentage of what your true gross pay is. If you are self-employed you pay an additional 7.65% self-employment tax of wages up to the soc sec and medicare limits). I cannot emphasize enough that you are really paying twice as much for this fucking Ponzi scheme than you think. How do you all like that little bombshell?


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Anonymous

Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2923243 - 07/24/04 11:19 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i've been getting paid under the table all summer. :ninja:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: ]
    #2923245 - 07/24/04 11:21 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I plead the fifth


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2923262 - 07/24/04 11:32 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The problem is a lot of people I know have little if any money left over at the end of the month. If they had the option of having a little more money at the end of the money instead of spending it on a long term investment they would spend it on their current bills and staying out of debt.


Quote:

a) Make due with what he can still get from social security, which is a little more than half of what he could have gotten would he have kept all his money in social security, or around a sixth of what he could have had if he invested the 6.2% VERY conservatively.




It's hard enough for people to live on social security currently so those people would become a wealthfare case and thus a burden on society.


Quote:

b) Rely on family, friends, charity, etc, to help him get through old age.




So what if his/her family is dead/doesn't want to help/can't help? He still ends up being a burden on society.

Quote:

c) Keep working.




An older man is going to have a very hard time find a job. Also suppose he is ill in his old age and unable to work.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Anonymous

Re: Awesome Step - Social Security Reform [Re: cb9fl]
    #2923289 - 07/24/04 11:47 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If they had the option of having a little more money at the end of the money instead of spending it on a long term investment they would spend it on their current bills and staying out of debt.

so... they are prevented from using their productive energies in the way they see most fit... and this is a good thing?

It's hard enough for people to live on social security currently so those people would become a wealthfare case and thus a burden on society.

social security is welfare, and it is a burden on certain members of society.

So what if his/her family is dead/doesn't want to help/can't help? He still ends up being a burden on society.

only if you force other people to support him.

An older man is going to have a very hard time find a job. Also suppose he is ill in his old age and unable to work.

hopefully he can find some kind of voluntary charitable support. if no one is willing to support him voluntarily, this doesn't mean its ok to force people to.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
You are dead on [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2923934 - 07/24/04 05:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Definitely reassuring to see a few republicans that actually act upon what republicans are supposed to stand for.




No Shit! Good post.

This is one of the big issues in America today. Ultimately it will fundamentally transform the nation and change the way that we look at things. I am a big fan of privatizing social security. People have known for a long time that the system produces low returns on capital and that in the end it is unsustainable.

We still have a Social Security surplus. More money is coming in from taxpayers than we pay out to older people in the program. We end up spending that money on other government programs. Some people describe this as a hidden tax, or alternately explain that without this surplus our actual budget deficit is much higher (which it is).

Some time in the next two decades, our Social Security "surplus" will turn into a Social Security "deficit". At current tax rates and reasonable growth projections we will then be paying out more for social security than we are taking in revenue from taxpayers. Once that switch reverses us from a surplus to a deficit don't look for it to ever swing back. The demographics of our population and the baby boom generation dictate this, and the writing has been on the wall for decades.

Given the fact that everyone knows the system is going to break, I think that our politicians are cowards in their inaction. We deserve leaders who stand up to a challenge, instead of simple men who can't think past the next election. We deserve better.

I think this is a great subject for discussion. I think reforming Social Security should be a priority. It is a train crash waiting to happen, and all we have been doing is watching the train. Social Security reform will come at some point in our lifetimes, that is a given. The only question is if we wait until the system hits the wall. I think it would be a lot less painful in the end if we started making the appropriate changes today.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Reform would advance fiscal education. [Re: cb9fl]
    #2923978 - 07/24/04 06:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cb9fl said:
So what would happen to the millions of people that instead of investing the money simply spent it on short term amenities? And then in their old age didn't have enough money to support themsleves due to lack of planning?

Would the government still have to care for these people or would they be left on the streets to die?




I believe that people would still be mandated to make Social Security contributions, but those contribuitons would go into private, self directed accounts. Access to those accounts would be restricted until retirement. It would not be surprising to see the government make exceptions for using those funds to make a downpayment on a home. After all, owning your own home is in itself a nice way to plan for retirement. Think about the positive ramifications of that. Ownership is empowerment.

The secret to financial independence is being able to save at every income level. No matter what you make, put some of it away. You also have to learn how to make that money work for you. If you do not do this you are doomed.

The best time to start is when you are young and making the least amount of money. People need to embrace concepts such as compound interest and the time-value of money. They don't teach kids about money in school, and surprisingly few parents teach their kids about money. Money is one of the most important things in our lives. It affects your lifestyle and standard of living. Every good and service that you purchase will most likely be paid with money. Get to know money, and especially what money can do for you.

Have a financial plan, and integrate it with your life plan. I posted on another thread about the correlation between young pregnancy and poverty. My wife and I put off having kids for years, and then we limited the number of our children. This was due to prudent financial considerations. We wanted to own a home for our children to live in, and we wanted to have financial stability before introducing children into the mix. It isn't enough to be emotionally ready to have children, you need to be fiscally ready as well. If not, people may condemn their children into a life of poverty. People need to consider their own lifestyle choices, whatever they are. And I am not talking in a moral way, but in a financially responsible way that examines the costs and the benefits.

Privatising social security will help to teach everyone about money. It would be great for America. Don't let the government decide your destiny.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
End the Ponzi Scheme! [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2924023 - 07/24/04 06:29 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You guys are not correct about what you pay to Soc Sec and Medicare. It is DOUBLE what you think it is. The 6.2% and 1.45% are matched by your employers, so in actuality you are paying 15.3% combined of your nominal gross pay (it is actually a smaller percentage of what your true gross pay is. If you are self-employed you pay an additional 7.65% self-employment tax of wages up to the soc sec and medicare limits). I cannot emphasize enough that you are really paying twice as much for this fucking Ponzi scheme than you think. How do you all like that little bombshell?




You make an excellent point about FICA taxes and the employer matching funds. Every employee essentially is paying 15.3% of their income. When I worked for companies, I used to save 15% in my 401K. Wouldn't it be incredible to watch your retirement account if you added in the FICA effect? Imagine stowing away 30% of your check and investing it in the market. I would feel pretty confident about the future.

I would be excited to see what would happen to our economy if the money destined to this government program was allowed to be invested in our country through private accounts.

The process of privatizing social security would endeavor to teach even the lowest economic classes about money and wealth. Everyone would have a different account and to some greater or lesser extent it would be self directed. Some individuals would do well with their money comparatively. Ensuing generations would attempt to learn from both from the successes of the wise as well as the failures of others in investment. It would spark a movement for national financial literacy.

And once the lower class saw how the money in their accounts was growing, it may just entice them to invest even more money and live their lives wisely. Maybe instead of signing a high interest contract for the rent-to-own big screen TV, the single mother who is renting thinks twice about how her money would best be spent.

Money is Power

Is money is fascinating and glorious? Is it is a quite divisive and a separating force? What the hell is money? Money is sometimes considered a figment of imagination. Our money is an abstract concept that is backed by no commodity. What makes money worth value is the common belief that it has value. As long as everyone believes it has value, it has value. In reality, currency is just a piece of paper with printing on it. Most money today isn't even printed; it just flies throughout the air invisibly in electronic wavelengths moving it from one account to another. Get your paycheck by direct deposit, pay your bills with your credit card, and then pay off your card balance through an online transfer from your bank.

Money may defy an easy explanation, and the history of money can be quite intriguing. One thing money is though, at least today, is power.

What would be the social implications of the lower economic classes accumulating monetary wealth and owning stock in corporate America? What is that I read somewhere about the worker owning the means of production? It should appeal to the Marxist bent of some of our shroomy luminaries. Owning stock conveys to the holder the right to propose shareholder initiatives and vote at corporate annual meetings.

Activist capitalism has already begun. Some unions and institutions have demanded that their pension funds be divested of big tobacco. More people owning stock and investing in the market would mean that capitalism and capitalistic institutions would take on a more social democratic flavor. It would undoubtedly help to influence and shape the society we live in. I don't find it hard at all to imagine campaigns where people pull together funds to invest them in an activist fashion. They could work both to better themselves and to better society though voting in their own corporate powerbrokers. Competing agendas would not only fight in the marketplace of ideas, but the marketplace itself. People?s capitalistic activism would be their free choice. It would also be balanced and tempered by the fact that they would bare any financial burden or enjoy any financial reward their policies brought on.


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Tastes just like chicken


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