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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Quote:
hostileuniverse said: Socialism is great, just ask Venezuelans and the Greeks
you're lacking in original thought.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
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"fail in countries that don't enforce them"
Like when illegals work under the US minimum wage laws? How has that been working out for US wages?
"Do companies from those countries have the same profit margins as US companies"
Because ALL US workers are employed at a large company with current high profit margins? https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-04-20/big-companies-still-employ-lots-of-people
"S&P 500 employment...17.3 percent in 2015" You do realize medium and smaller business do NOT have those same margins? The higher margins are also the result from outsourcing to cheap labor economies.
BTW, your theory has been that mandated higher wages will create more demand, so profit margins should be immaterial to your economic thesis.
"no LONG TERM impact on employment"
You do realize that hiking the minimum wage but not keeping it up with inflation really isn't a wage hike? What today's minimum wage in real terms? http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/21/adjusted-for-inflation-the-federal-minimum-wage-is-worth-less-than-50-years-ago.html
"Data show that in 1968, the federal minimum wage was equivalent to $10.90 in 2015 dollars, nearly $4 higher than today's rate"
"Germany"
It's a little too early to really see how their minimum wage hike will workout.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Employment_statistics
"part-time increased steadily from 16.5% on 2005 to 19.0% in 2015. By far the largest proportion of part-time workers in 2015 was found in the Netherlands (46.9%) followed by Austria, Germany..."
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 4 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 1
#23922948 - 12/13/16 02:48 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers
"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"
During the Recession lmao! Wow, you've really chosen some low hanging fruit.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 7 hours, 7 seconds
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said: http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers
"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"
During the Recession lmao! Wow, you've really chosen some low hanging fruit.
Don't you think all business cycles should be included in the examination of an economic theory?
It's not different than using a small sample time frame during an economic expansion (Seattle).
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#23923027 - 12/13/16 03:09 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i'm under the impression that more people were forced to take low paying jobs during the recession because that's all that was/is available.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (12/13/16 03:11 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
#23923045 - 12/13/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said: i'm under the impression that more people were forced to take low paying jobs during the recession because that's all that was/is available.

Yes, the law of supply and demand at work.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#23923058 - 12/13/16 03:18 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Yes, the law of supply and demand at work.
Walmart.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said: http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers
"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"
During the Recession lmao! Wow, you've really chosen some low hanging fruit.
from the link:
Quote:
I think it's important to embrace the fact that any given piece of applied econometric evidence comes from a very particular historical and economic context. So I would be very hesitant to just make the assumption or jump to the conclusion that future minimum wage increases would play out in exactly the same way as the minimum wage increases that I've analyzed. In fact, there's very good reason to think that they would not.
So I tend to be relatively persuaded by the recent work suggesting it's primarily being driven by factors like competition associated with trade with China and labor replacing technological developments, which makes me think that wage subsidy policies like earned income tax credits or more general skills training programs would be a more appropriate policy response.
But I wouldn't say I have a particularly high level of confidence there.
it doesn't sound like he's as confident in his analysis as Qman is.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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millzy


Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,404
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 2
#23923113 - 12/13/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
millzy said: i'm under the impression that more people were forced to take low paying jobs during the recession because that's all that was/is available.

Yes, the law of supply and demand at work.
here's where we're going to have to part ways.
there is no 'law' of anything when it comes to markets. the term 'market' itself entails rules. markets are driven by policies. is it the case that more low paying jobs became available because many of the high paying ones were eliminated due to the banking crash? that seems to be a matter of historical fact. did things have to turn out this way? that seems not so clear because the crash was a result of our policies (or lack thereof). i can't think of any 'law' of the 'free market' off the top of my head that states that business elites should be permitted to rob their societies to the point of near collapse.
if all sectors of economy had kept up with paying living wages, we would most certainly be better off than we are now, with or without a banking crash. that may not be a 'law', but it sure makes a lot of sense.
-------------------- I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
#23923118 - 12/13/16 03:36 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i wonder if consumer goods were monopolized by a single entity, would people be so keen on the 'free market.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 7 hours, 7 seconds
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
#23923131 - 12/13/16 03:40 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said: http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers
"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"
During the Recession lmao! Wow, you've really chosen some low hanging fruit.
from the link:
Quote:
I think it's important to embrace the fact that any given piece of applied econometric evidence comes from a very particular historical and economic context. So I would be very hesitant to just make the assumption or jump to the conclusion that future minimum wage increases would play out in exactly the same way as the minimum wage increases that I've analyzed. In fact, there's very good reason to think that they would not.
So I tend to be relatively persuaded by the recent work suggesting it's primarily being driven by factors like competition associated with trade with China and labor replacing technological developments, which makes me think that wage subsidy policies like earned income tax credits or more general skills training programs would be a more appropriate policy response.
But I wouldn't say I have a particularly high level of confidence there.
it doesn't sound like he's as confident in his analysis as Qman is.
Nobody should be "confident" on this issue, there's lot of different factors at play here.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 7 hours, 7 seconds
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy]
#23923145 - 12/13/16 03:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
millzy said: i'm under the impression that more people were forced to take low paying jobs during the recession because that's all that was/is available.

Yes, the law of supply and demand at work.
here's where we're going to have to part ways.
there is no 'law' of anything when it comes to markets. the term 'market' itself entails rules. markets are driven by policies. is it the case that more low paying jobs became available because many of the high paying ones were eliminated due to the banking crash? that seems to be a matter of historical fact. did things have to turn out this way? that seems not so clear because the crash was a result of our policies (or lack thereof). i can't think of any 'law' of the 'free market' off the top of my head that states that business elites should be permitted to rob their societies to the point of near collapse.
if all sectors of economy had kept up with paying living wages, we would most certainly be better off than we are now, with or without a banking crash. that may not be a 'law', but it sure makes a lot of sense.
All sort of jobs were eliminated during that recession, construction jobs included.
The bankers created a credit crash and then got bailed out as a result, I was against that policy. Obama and many other "anti-business" liberals fully endorsed the rewarding of unethical and illegal behavior, including our own Falcon.
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 1
#23923154 - 12/13/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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i'm sure Falcon isn't "anti-business", as you proclaim.
you should try taking the advise of the wise hostileuniverse, and stop painting in such broad strokes when it comes to your liberal opponents (opponents' liberal?). the more connotations you tack on, the more likely you are to reach an inaccurate presumption.
Edited by akira_akuma (12/13/16 03:52 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 7 hours, 7 seconds
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Quote:
akira_akuma said: i'm sure Falcon isn't "anti-business", as you proclaim.
you should try taking the advise of the wise hostileuniverse, and stop painting in such broad strokes when it comes to your opponents' liberal. the more connotations you tack on, the more likely you are to provide an inaccurate picture.
The "anti-business" description didn't include Fal, with that being said, he fully supported the bailing out of the elites (banks) and their mechanism to cause harm to the average US citizen.
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 4 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 1
#23923273 - 12/13/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said: http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers
"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"
During the Recession lmao! Wow, you've really chosen some low hanging fruit.
Don't you think all business cycles should be included in the examination of an economic theory?
It's not different than using a small sample time frame during an economic expansion (Seattle).
Yes, but Washington State itself has had a higher minimum wage for years, and still been a booming success, and Seattle isn't the only city to increase minimum wage.
I don't consider a Great Recession, or a Great Depression 'part of the business cycle'. This recession was due to outright illegal behavior on behalf of the banks, along with deregulation.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 4 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy] 2
#23923296 - 12/13/16 04:57 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said: i can't think of any 'law' of the 'free market' off the top of my head that states that business elites should be permitted to rob their societies to the point of near collapse.
I would have to disagree with you here. Historically, the free-er the market, the free-er the 'robber-barons' to pillage. Therefore, this may be the only rule of "free markets" 
Quote:
if all sectors of economy had kept up with paying living wages, we would most certainly be better off than we are now, with or without a banking crash. that may not be a 'law', but it sure makes a lot of sense.
Undoubtedly. Had we not engaged in the practice of union-busting, and indexed the minimum wage in 1968, we'd be in far better shape, and the minimum wage would be higher. In fact, quantitative easing would be less painful to the public, at least minimum wage earners, because their wages would go up accordingly.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 4 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#23923303 - 12/13/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said: i'm sure Falcon isn't "anti-business", as you proclaim.
you should try taking the advise of the wise hostileuniverse, and stop painting in such broad strokes when it comes to your opponents' liberal. the more connotations you tack on, the more likely you are to provide an inaccurate picture.
The "anti-business" description didn't include Fal, with that being said, he fully supported the bailing out of the elites (banks) and their mechanism to cause harm to the average US citizen.
... and you think the economic philosophy of the big banks is one we should all value. You think it is 'practical', and contrasting opinions are 'unrealistic'.
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
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Bigbadwooof
Trumps Bone Spurs



Registered: 12/07/13
Posts: 13,347
Last seen: 4 hours, 48 minutes
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#23923310 - 12/13/16 05:02 PM (7 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: All sort of jobs were eliminated during that recession, construction jobs included.
The bankers created a credit crash and then got bailed out as a result, I was against that policy. Obama and many other "anti-business" liberals fully endorsed the rewarding of unethical and illegal behavior, including our own Falcon.
You know damn good and well that Falcon doesn't endorse it. You're forgetting one major caveat to Falcon's stance on the subject. Yes, we should have bailed them out, to prevent further damage to the people in this country who didn't do anything wrong. However, we should have broken them up, and put back the old regulations that kept banks in check.
Stop playing stupid... or are you not playing?
-------------------- "It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti FARTS "There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin Every one of you should see this video. "If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy
 
Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/13/16 05:04 PM)
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 7 hours, 7 seconds
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said: http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers
"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"
During the Recession lmao! Wow, you've really chosen some low hanging fruit.
Don't you think all business cycles should be included in the examination of an economic theory?
It's not different than using a small sample time frame during an economic expansion (Seattle).
Yes, but Washington State itself has had a higher minimum wage for years, and still been a booming success, and Seattle isn't the only city to increase minimum wage.
I don't consider a Great Recession, or a Great Depression 'part of the business cycle'. This recession was due to outright illegal behavior on behalf of the banks, along with deregulation.
Recessions happen even during eras of economic expansion, so yes they must be included in the economics cycles, thinking otherwise is delusional. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_States
Do you understand credit cycles? That's why we have booms and busts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_cycle
The recession was the result of too much credit getting extended to unqualified borrowers, when you're "too big too fail", you tend to engage in irresponsible fiscal behavior.
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qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 7 hours, 7 seconds
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Quote:
Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said: i'm sure Falcon isn't "anti-business", as you proclaim.
you should try taking the advise of the wise hostileuniverse, and stop painting in such broad strokes when it comes to your opponents' liberal. the more connotations you tack on, the more likely you are to provide an inaccurate picture.
The "anti-business" description didn't include Fal, with that being said, he fully supported the bailing out of the elites (banks) and their mechanism to cause harm to the average US citizen.
... and you think the economic philosophy of the big banks is one we should all value. You think it is 'practical', and contrasting opinions are 'unrealistic'.
Hmm, I didn't endorse the bailouts, Fal did.
I believe in insolvency, bankruptcy and defaults, he doesn't.
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