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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] 2
#23998148 - 01/10/17 12:50 PM (7 years, 20 days ago) |
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You said you found it funny that US politicians "always bring up education as being the key issue for success." I provided a chart showing that more educated people are indeed more successful.
You said my "chart just shows higher relative incomes with more education during times of economic prosperity inside of the US."
Since you added the "during times of economic prosperity" qualifier, I assumed that means you believe we now have economic prosperity under Obama.
Yes, I realize general economic prosperity for the US as a whole doesn't necessarily mean economic prosperity for US workers. I've been telling you that for years. Glad you FINALLY agree.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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I'm sure he'll start advocating for public investment in education now.
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qman
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I'm sure he'll start advocating for public investment in education now.
Hillary Clinton campaigned on the notion that even more education could solve our labor problems.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#24000740 - 01/11/17 10:23 AM (7 years, 19 days ago) |
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I don't think it surprises anyone here that Hillary Clinton pandered on the campaign trail.
But we do need to invest money in education, whether it helps with jobs or not.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: But we do need to invest money in education, whether it helps with jobs or not.
We already spend more on education than nearly any other country in the world.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp
And that is not even counting the huge amount of university and college subsides that are received from both the state and fed.
Why is it that when our health care expense is high people want to bring it down by reforming the system. But with a high education expense, we just want to spend more?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DieCommie] 1
#24000922 - 01/11/17 11:42 AM (7 years, 19 days ago) |
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Because theyre completely different?
The similarity being we want the best bang for our buck. Single payer is the case with healthcare. Whats the answer for education? Not entirely sure. But I know it ISNT privatizing the public school system.
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specialpeopleclub


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Is single payer the best? There seem to be a lot of problems with it.
You are talking bang for buck, but what incentive is there for a centralized system to do well?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Yes, single payer is best. Medicare for all.
What's wrong with Medicare that can't be fixed?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I don't think it surprises anyone here that Hillary Clinton pandered on the campaign trail.
But we do need to invest money in education, whether it helps with jobs or not.
We do invest plenty of money into education, I guess the key question is at this point, what is the current return on investment?
It wasn't the long ago that a High School graduate could get hired by a company and then TRAINED by that company.
Isn't that the best way to get educated for the workforce? It's free and it's immediately applied for a good wage.
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qman
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Yes, single payer is best. Medicare for all.
What's wrong with Medicare that can't be fixed?
I agree, in fact if it was all combined the cost for the existing Medicare system could be controlled.
Part of the problem is how we practice medicine in the last 5% of a person's life, you can't rack up $500k worth of medical bills on someone when they're already on their deathbed. I believe the functional single payer systems use a more commonsense approach to control those costs.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#24001129 - 01/11/17 01:00 PM (7 years, 19 days ago) |
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I agree completely.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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specialpeopleclub


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Dying is pretty expensive.
The government is always so good at controlling prices
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qman
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Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Dying is pretty expensive.
The government is always so good at controlling prices
But dying doesn't have to be expensive, it usually only gets the doctors and hospitals rich as stupid patients suffer from pointless surgeries and tests.
I don't think a 78 year old person with tons of health issues should have an open heart surgery, it's crazy expensive and it's pointless.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DieCommie] 1
#24001256 - 01/11/17 01:51 PM (7 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: But we do need to invest money in education, whether it helps with jobs or not.
We already spend more on education than nearly any other country in the world.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp
And that is not even counting the huge amount of university and college subsides that are received from both the state and fed.
Why is it that when our health care expense is high people want to bring it down by reforming the system. But with a high education expense, we just want to spend more?
Well, according to your link, the countries with the highest GDP per capita spend the most on education, and those with the lowest spend the least. So you tell me, which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Quote:
13 of the 15 countries with the highest GDP per capita (Switzerland, Norway, the United States, the Netherlands, Ireland, Austria, Sweden, Germany, Belgium, Finland, France, the United Kingdom, and Japan) had education expenditures per FTE student that were higher than the OECD average at both the elementary/secondary level and the postsecondary level. The two exceptions were Australia, with lower elementary/secondary level expenditures per FTE student ($8,800, in current dollars) than the OECD average ($9,000), and Iceland, with lower postsecondary level expenditures per FTE student ($9,400) than the OECD average ($14,800). Each of the 15 countries with the lowest GDP per capita (Mexico, Turkey, Chile, Hungary, Poland, Estonia, the Slovak Republic, Portugal, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Israel, the Republic of Korea, New Zealand, Spain, and Italy) had education expenditures per FTE student that were lower than the OECD average at both the elementary/secondary level and the postsecondary level.
Also, since this study appears to account for post-secondary expenditures, it seems that you are incorrect in the statement: "And that is not even counting the huge amount of university and college subsides that are received from both the state and fed."
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ballsalsa
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customers of the LADWP would tend to agree with you.
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specialpeopleclub


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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
#24003651 - 01/12/17 10:24 AM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Dying is pretty expensive.
The government is always so good at controlling prices
But dying doesn't have to be expensive, it usually only gets the doctors and hospitals rich as stupid patients suffer from pointless surgeries and tests.
I don't think a 78 year old person with tons of health issues should have an open heart surgery, it's crazy expensive and it's pointless.
What counts as a lot of health problems? Maybe that 78 year old wants to live. That isnt even that old
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Can we can agree that any surgery/procedure that would extend life by less than 6 months (or some other similar number) shouldn't be paid for by Government health insurance?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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qman
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Quote:
specialpeopleclub said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
specialpeopleclub said: Dying is pretty expensive.
The government is always so good at controlling prices
But dying doesn't have to be expensive, it usually only gets the doctors and hospitals rich as stupid patients suffer from pointless surgeries and tests.
I don't think a 78 year old person with tons of health issues should have an open heart surgery, it's crazy expensive and it's pointless.
What counts as a lot of health problems? Maybe that 78 year old wants to live. That isnt even that old
Yet, his life expectancy isn't likely to improve with a high risk surgery at that age. The doctors love to do it because it's a zero risk procedure from their perspective, if he dies on the operating table there's no liability, yet they still get the money.
They way the US practices medicine on elderly people is a big scam, it's immoral, unethical, it's torturous and it's a big money making industry.
If someone wants to pay out of pocket, I say go for it, but don't burden the existing system with those type of decisions, it's very un-affordable.
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specialpeopleclub


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I suppose if thats how you Santo value people. Its pretty disgusting h. I'd probably have seriously harmed someone if I knew my grandpa could have gotten even another week of living, but they didn't want to pay for it
I dislike this strawman 78 year old. If he survives, his life was extended. To someone that values their life, or Sir loved ones, its incalculably important.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Can we can agree that any surgery/procedure that would extend life by less than 6 months (or some other similar number) shouldn't be paid for by Government health insurance?
Who makes this estimate? A doctor? The hospital board? Sometimes people hold on for unexpected amounts of time, sometimes they die far sooner.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Because theyre completely different?
Is that a rhetorical question?
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:The similarity being we want the best bang for our buck. Single payer is the case with healthcare. Whats the answer for education? Not entirely sure. But I know it ISNT privatizing the public school system.
So you don't know how to fix education, you seem to admit the system isn't the best (not sure). But you want to throw more money at it anyway? Why not single payer education?
Please elaborate on your rhetorical question. Why is throwing more money at the education system a solution we need while throwing more money at health care is not. In each case these are services we spend among the highest amount on the planet on yet don't get the highest results on the planet.
I suspect you have been fooled by the teachers. They whine and cry about their plight, want more money like everyone but they are a sympathetic figure since we are taught to respect them by teachers themselves. The school system is filled with people that are under-worked and over-payed. Even if you disagree with that opinion you cannot deny they consume a lot compared to what they produce (using the rest of the rich world as a comparison).
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