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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23920715 - 12/12/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
:thatsaten:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

This was discussed at length here (where I got more up votes than any post I ever made).




I was feeling much too lazy to look back for this thread.  Thanks Fal.




Unemployment DID go up for the low-wage workers (the very ones the mandate was to benefit), so why should anyone be happy that total employment was not affected?

I mean higher earners did just fine, how does that show that the higher minimum wage was a success when the law wasn't even meant to benefit anyone but the low-wage workers?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 1
    #23920731 - 12/12/16 07:24 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Fal already addressed that when he said

Quote:

So a minimum wage hike brought more people into the city, which helped with the construction boom.  It may have even caused a temporary increase in unemployment because more people moved to Seattle to work.




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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23920741 - 12/12/16 07:28 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
:thatsaten:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

This was discussed at length here (where I got more up votes than any post I ever made).




I was feeling much too lazy to look back for this thread.  Thanks Fal.




Wow, Falcon, that really was an excellent, and very analytical post. You just broke double digits on the up votes btw :wink:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
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Every one of you should see this video.
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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23920764 - 12/12/16 07:37 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Fal already addressed that when he said

Quote:

So a minimum wage hike brought more people into the city, which helped with the construction boom.  It may have even caused a temporary increase in unemployment because more people moved to Seattle to work.







And how does the help the low-wage workers of Seattle?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 1
    #23920778 - 12/12/16 07:40 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

they got a substantial pay raise


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23920800 - 12/12/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they got a substantial pay raise




At the expense of fewer hours and higher unemployment. :cookiemonster:


Edited by qman (12/12/16 07:46 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23920813 - 12/12/16 07:49 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they got a substantial pay raise



:leocheers:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #23920826 - 12/12/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they got a substantial pay raise




At the expense of fewer hours and higher unemployment. :cookiemonster:




Yep, and GE builds their shit in Indonesia because its cheaper.

As long as corporations have a more cost effective option, theyll take it. This is nothing new. It doesnt mean we should let our working class slide headfirst into the third world.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 1
    #23920852 - 12/12/16 08:02 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they got a substantial pay raise




At the expense of fewer hours and higher unemployment. :cookiemonster:




You have to look at it from a cost/benefit perspective. If 1% more people are unemployed, but the rest of them are making $5 more an hour... Well... The benefit far outweighs the cost.

On a side note, any business that is capable of moving business overseas already had. It doesn't matter if the minimum wage is $7 or $15... In Bangladesh it's $3 a week...


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #23920857 - 12/12/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
You have to look at it from a cost/benefit perspective. If 1% more people are unemployed, but the rest of them are making $5 more an hour... Well... The benefit far outweighs the cost.



:whathesaid:

Not to mention, the unemployment rate is Seattle is now at a ridiculously low 3.4%.

Are you seriously trying to argue things are bad in Seattle?!?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23920925 - 12/12/16 08:24 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they got a substantial pay raise




At the expense of fewer hours and higher unemployment. :cookiemonster:




You have to look at it from a cost/benefit perspective. If 1% more people are unemployed, but the rest of them are making $5 more an hour... Well... The benefit far outweighs the cost.

On a side note, any business that is capable of moving business overseas already had. It doesn't matter if the minimum wage is $7 or $15... In Bangladesh it's $3 a week...




"The benefit far outweighs the cost"

That could very well be the case in Seattle, but that doesn't mean it would be the case everywhere else in the US or the world.

"any business that is capable of moving business overseas already had"

One would think that's the case, yet companies continue to do so, there's educated and high skilled workers in poor areas of the world more than ever before.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 1
    #23921277 - 12/12/16 10:38 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they got a substantial pay raise




At the expense of fewer hours and higher unemployment. :cookiemonster:




You have to look at it from a cost/benefit perspective. If 1% more people are unemployed, but the rest of them are making $5 more an hour... Well... The benefit far outweighs the cost.

On a side note, any business that is capable of moving business overseas already had. It doesn't matter if the minimum wage is $7 or $15... In Bangladesh it's $3 a week...




"The benefit far outweighs the cost"

That could very well be the case in Seattle, but that doesn't mean it would be the case everywhere else in the US or the world.




It would be nice to see you provide some evidence of one of your claims someday. I don't know how you expect to win all of these arguments on your opinion alone.

Quote:

"any business that is capable of moving business overseas already had"

One would think that's the case, yet companies continue to do so, there's educated and high skilled workers in poor areas of the world more than ever before.




If they can find a way to do so, they will continue to do so, regardless of reasonable wage hikes here. I say reasonable, because I've heard some of you guys make the assumption that we are suggesting wage hikes up to $100/hr wouldn't change anything, and that's not the case.

Wages will always be lower in the 3rd world, whether or not they go up here. Therefore, if feasible, companies will always move abroad. Raising wages slightly here will not change that fact, though it will boost the American economy, for obvious reasons.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Edited by Bigbadwooof (12/12/16 10:40 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23921752 - 12/13/16 06:06 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

qman does have a point though.

i've said before that i don't think increasing wages is the only thing we need to do to turn things around. we need to de-incentivize companies from exporting their jobs along with giving them a reason to want to increase wages. there would have to be laws to keep companies in line, but there would also have to be rewards. it seems to me that you could offer huge tax breaks to companies who pay high salaries to all of their workers because it would take less people out of the social safety net. don't get me wrong, i think we need a very solid social safety net. there isn't any good reason why we should have any losers in our society. but having less of them to deal with would seem to make providing help that much easier.

the real burden organizations have is not paying taxes, but rather creating and sustaining public goods beyond their services and products. organizations must give back to the societies that allow them to exist. again, doing things the way we have done them for the past generation is destroying us. continuing down that path will continue to destroy us.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23921946 - 12/13/16 08:41 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
they got a substantial pay raise




At the expense of fewer hours and higher unemployment. :cookiemonster:




You have to look at it from a cost/benefit perspective. If 1% more people are unemployed, but the rest of them are making $5 more an hour... Well... The benefit far outweighs the cost.

On a side note, any business that is capable of moving business overseas already had. It doesn't matter if the minimum wage is $7 or $15... In Bangladesh it's $3 a week...




"The benefit far outweighs the cost"

That could very well be the case in Seattle, but that doesn't mean it would be the case everywhere else in the US or the world.




It would be nice to see you provide some evidence of one of your claims someday. I don't know how you expect to win all of these arguments on your opinion alone.

Quote:

"any business that is capable of moving business overseas already had"

One would think that's the case, yet companies continue to do so, there's educated and high skilled workers in poor areas of the world more than ever before.




If they can find a way to do so, they will continue to do so, regardless of reasonable wage hikes here. I say reasonable, because I've heard some of you guys make the assumption that we are suggesting wage hikes up to $100/hr wouldn't change anything, and that's not the case.

Wages will always be lower in the 3rd world, whether or not they go up here. Therefore, if feasible, companies will always move abroad. Raising wages slightly here will not change that fact, though it will boost the American economy, for obvious reasons.




I provided plenty of evidence of higher minimum wage mandates failing throughout the  world, even in the US as well, you do realize there's mountains of study from people on BOTH sides of this debate?

"though it will boost the American economy, for obvious reason"

Higher wages would boost the American economy, but mandating a higher minimum wage does NOT accomplish that goal. Why doesn't Mexico just mandate higher wages and become an economic superpower?  It mean what's to stop them from outperforming the US if we follow your line of reasoning?

What about struggling Greece, Turkey, Brazil, India, Vietnam, ect.? I mean you have the magic formula and everyone else is just too stupid to implement this so very easy solution. :flowstone:


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: millzy] * 2
    #23921955 - 12/13/16 08:46 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
qman does have a point though.

i've said before that i don't think increasing wages is the only thing we need to do to turn things around. we need to de-incentivize companies from exporting their jobs along with giving them a reason to want to increase wages. there would have to be laws to keep companies in line, but there would also have to be rewards. it seems to me that you could offer huge tax breaks to companies who pay high salaries to all of their workers because it would take less people out of the social safety net.




The funny thing is, this would legally bind CEO's to pay their workers huge salaries, if it would save the shareholders a lot of money. This would make trickle down make sense! Then everyone would approve of lower taxes for businesses.

Quote:

don't get me wrong, i think we need a very solid social safety net. there isn't any good reason why we should have any losers in our society. but having less of them to deal with would seem to make providing help that much easier.




People should be able to make a living if they want to make a living.

Quote:

the real burden organizations have is not paying taxes, but rather creating and sustaining public goods beyond their services and products. organizations must give back to the societies that allow them to exist. again, doing things the way we have done them for the past generation is destroying us. continuing down that path will continue to destroy us.




Yes, we must find a new way. That's what Trump and Brexit are all about. I was listening to a British radioshow last night, and they were talking about that. With Trump and Brexit, people didn't know what the outcome was going to be. They just wanted something different so badly, that they were willing to take a punt, and go for something new. Anything new! People are sick and tired of business as usual.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #23921959 - 12/13/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I provided plenty of evidence of higher minimum wage mandates failing throughout the  world, even in the US as well, you do realize there's mountains of study from people on BOTH sides of this debate?

"though it will boost the American economy, for obvious reason"

Higher wages would boost the American economy, but mandating a higher minimum wage does NOT accomplish that goal. Why doesn't Mexico just mandate higher wages and become an economic superpower?  It mean what's to stop them from outperforming the US if we follow your line of reasoning?

What about struggling Greece, Turkey, Brazil, India, Vietnam, ect.? I mean you have the magic formula and everyone else is just too stupid to implement this so very easy solution. :flowstone:




We weren't talking about Greece, Turkey, Brazil, India, or Vietnam, were we? I don't recall that we were...

Where is this evidence? I don't think I've ever seen you post evidence for a claim you've made. Unless you consider video clip anecdotes to be evidence...


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23921987 - 12/13/16 09:04 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers

"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-26/where-a-higher-minimum-wage-hurts-the-poor

African and South American nations haven't fared so well with wage mandates.

Some EU countries have also struggled from the mandates.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/let-data-speak-truth-behind-minimum-wage-laws

I posted the same links one page ago.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #23922594 - 12/13/16 01:00 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I provided plenty of evidence of higher minimum wage mandates failing throughout the  world, even in the US as well



Your evidence said higher minimum wage laws fail in countries that don't enforce them (fine, but an irrelevant analogy for countries that do), and your US example of Seattle was easily shot down.  You've given us nothing to work with.

Quote:

qman said:
you do realize there's mountains of study from people on BOTH sides of this debate?



There's not 'mountains of study', there's 'mountains of uninformed opinion', just like there is with global warming and vaccination shots.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Wages will always be lower in the 3rd world, whether or not they go up here. Therefore, if feasible, companies will always move abroad. Raising wages slightly here will not change that fact, though it will boost the American economy, for obvious reasons.



Higher wages would boost the American economy, but mandating a higher minimum wage does NOT accomplish that goal.



More opinion not backed by evidence.

Quote:

qman said:
Why doesn't Mexico just mandate higher wages and become an economic superpower?  I mean what's to stop them from outperforming the US if we follow your line of reasoning?  What about struggling Greece, Turkey, Brazil, India, Vietnam, ect.?



Do companies from those countries have the same profit margins as US companies where there is more than enough to go around?  If so, then your line of reasoning should be correct.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Where is this evidence? I don't think I've ever seen you post evidence for a claim you've made.



http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2016-03-28/ask-an-economist-will-a-minimum-wage-hike-help-or-hurt-workers

"Clemens own research suggests the series of minimum wage hikes enacted in the mid_2000's contributed substantially to the number of low-skilled jobs lost during and around the Great Recession"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-26/where-a-higher-minimum-wage-hurts-the-poor

African and South American nations haven't fared so well with wage mandates.



These have all been addressed above as irrelevant because 1) The claim was that there is no LONG TERM impact on employment  2) the US enforces its wage laws, and  3)Seattle is doing great.

Quote:

qman said:
Some EU countries have also struggled from the mandates.

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/let-data-speak-truth-behind-minimum-wage-laws

I posted the same links one page ago.



Every CATO article I've ever read is nothing more than an attempt to trick the reader.  This one is no exception.

It basically says that in the well off countries of the EU, there is no minimum wage and unemployment is low.

The reality is that all of these better off countries have minimum wages set through collective bargaining agreements.

More importantly, the Cato article argued that Germany's unemployment was sure to go up if it instituted a minimum wage law.

Germany DID institute a minimum wage law on 1 Jan 15 (after the article was written), so we now have empirical evidence to show whether Cato was right or not.

Cato was wrong again, as usual:



The empirical evidence shows no increase in unemployment as a result of a minimum wage.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23922607 - 12/13/16 01:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23922732 - 12/13/16 01:41 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Socialism is great, just ask Venezuelans and the Greeks


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