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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Great Scott] * 4
    #23852224 - 11/20/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Do you know what taxes are?

Instead of gathering trillions in debt from wars the US doesn't need to be involved in they could spend a fraction of tax payer dollars on helping them not die. Seeing as over 40,000 Americans die each year from a lack of affordable healthcare.

Quote:

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage



http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineGreat Scott
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Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 19,797
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: sudly]
    #23852247 - 11/20/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You're going off the rails. I'm not arguing that tax dollars don't get misspent on frivolous wars. They do.

And Socialized Medicine is not a fundamental right. Never has been, never will be. It's a kind thing to do, but it doesn't fall under the category of basic individual rights, philosophically speaking.


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:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Great Scott] * 3
    #23852259 - 11/20/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Okay yeah, healthcare is not an inalienable right but it is something that should be taken seriously because the idea is dismissed so often by media organisations such as CNN who during the primaries called Bernie Sanders ideas pie in the sky ideas of unicorns and fairy tails.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Great Scott] * 3
    #23852317 - 11/20/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
You're going off the rails. I'm not arguing that tax dollars don't get misspent on frivolous wars. They do.

And Socialized Medicine is not a fundamental right. Never has been, never will be. It's a kind thing to do, but it doesn't fall under the category of basic individual rights, philosophically speaking.




As a diabetic, it would be very nice not to have to bankrupt myself in order to get medicine and treatment.  While you are right that medical care is not a right, why are we the only industrialized nation not to promote it as one?  I've had extensive contact with our healthcare system for the last decade plus, and it's medieval.  It's simply awful.  There is no excuse for the richest country on the planet to have such a truly dysfunctional medical system and such exorbitant, astronomical prices on medicines. 

We're really fucking stupid when it comes to healthcare.  We'll see what the Republicans cook up, and I hope I'm not crucified for having a pre-existing condition.  They said they'd address that, but it doesn't mean it will be affordable for me.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23852352 - 11/20/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There are tax loopholes and therefore pharmaceutical price gouging.

Quote:

The chairman of the House Veterans' Affairs Committee has accused the makers of hepatitis C drug sofosbuvir of opportunism and price-gouging for charging the U.S. government up to $68,000 for a treatment regimen that costs about $1,400 to manufacture.



http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/benefits/health-care/2016/01/27/hepatitis-c-drug-maker-price-gouging-gop-lawmaker-says/79419426/

E.g.


America needs to get rid of Citizens United or they'll burn.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23852364 - 11/20/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:We'll see what the Republicans cook up, and I hope I'm not crucified for having a pre-existing condition.  They said they'd address that, but it doesn't mean it will be affordable for me.




"pre-existing conditions"

That's one of the few things Trump plans to keep when he restructures Obamacare.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Great Scott] * 3
    #23852374 - 11/20/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Right, yes, but that doesn't mean it will be affordable for me.  Obamacare hasn't been, really, it's been a real struggle.  I'll believe the Republicans have a better alternative when I see it.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblepineninja
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Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South Flag
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Great Scott] * 2
    #23852380 - 11/20/16 06:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
You're going off the rails. I'm not arguing that tax dollars don't get misspent on frivolous wars. They do.

And Socialized Medicine is not a fundamental right. Never has been, never will be. It's a kind thing to do, but it doesn't fall under the category of basic individual rights, philosophically speaking.



Society begins when it cares for its sick herds do not. Unalienable rights are fluid in progressive sustainable society's.
In other parts of the world your arguement is already bumkis.
"Things that embody freedom cannot themselves be limited by the ideas and words of a single group of people at a particular point in time."


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Just a fool on the hill.


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InvisibleTFI
Stranger
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Registered: 04/06/14
Posts: 345
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: sudly]
    #23853550 - 11/21/16 08:32 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
What's far left about universal health care or working wages?

There are plenty of other developed countries like those in Scandinavia who provide their citizens with a right to health care.
Even though the US is one of the most affluent nations in the world they are still incapable of providing basic needs for their people.

They have the resources but not the political will or leadership to achieve more than corporate lobbying from Democratic AND Republican representatives like Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.




So forcing healthcare down the american peoples throat is the solution?


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InvisibleTFI
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: sudly]
    #23853564 - 11/21/16 08:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

TFI said:
Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government as opposed to democracy.

how do you feel?

I personally am a conservative republican where i believe that less government and less regulation means you get to live your life as you see fit




I think you've been sucked in by Fox.

Democratic socialism is the progressive movement people like Bernie Sanders promote, not socialism or communism.

If you vote conservative republican you're voting for a larger government as is seen right now with bills to make women pay for funerals if they have a miscarriage or their child dies during birth/still birth etc.

That and more interventions overseas, less healthcare, less fossil fuel regulations, less taxes for the richest of the richest corporations/large businesses and a big fuck you to working middle class families.





Who creates big business/corperations for people to go work at? Taxing the rich only further confines the working class, if labor is cheaper in lets say china or mexico the big business is going that way. Most of whats built and bought today comes from asia. I know this because i own a small business.. All that stupid fucking obamacare did was take 7500 from my wallet. Whooo healthcare...... Fuck berney sanders.. That limp dick communist didnt even try third party. What makes you think he has the balls to run a country much less the greatest country.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 2
    #23854205 - 11/21/16 12:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Even though the US is one of the most affluent nations in the world they are still incapable of providing basic needs for their people.



So forcing healthcare down the american peoples throat is the solution?



"Forcing healthcare down the American peoples throat"

So you think having healthcare is a bad thing?  You think when people get sick they should have to choose between bankruptcy and death?  No thanks.

What needs to happen is to make healthcare affordable for the masses like they do in all other developed countries.  The problem is that conservatives cry about taxing the rich more, and insist they'd rather have no healthcare than cheap healthcare.  :flowstone:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 2
    #23854404 - 11/21/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government as opposed to democracy.

how do you feel?

I personally am a conservative republican where i believe that less government and less regulation means you get to live your life as you see fit




The two arent mutually exclusive.

Why do people still not understand that?

If anything, socializing industry is more democratic than capitalism.



What a stupid fucking premise. Sorry. But jesus christ.


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OfflineEzuma
Gontish Wizard
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Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #23854446 - 11/21/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

TFI said:
Many people today believe that in america we would be better of living under a socialist/communist government as opposed to democracy.

how do you feel?

I personally am a conservative republican where i believe that less government and less regulation means you get to live your life as you see fit




The two arent mutually exclusive.

Why do people still not understand that?

If anything, socializing industry is more democratic than capitalism.



What a stupid fucking premise. Sorry. But jesus christ.




it is weird, it seems so obvious... dictatorship isn't a necessary part of socialism I dunno why everyone assumes it is
it'd even be possible to have democratic communism, but that term's been so abused it's probably not useful anymore


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica Flag
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Ezuma] * 4
    #23855134 - 11/21/16 06:06 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

^ 80 years of red scare propaganda takes its toll.

Somehow "workers taking control" became synonymous with tyrannical dictatorship. Wonder why.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23855739 - 11/21/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
^ 80 years of red scare propaganda takes its toll.

Somehow "workers taking control" became synonymous with tyrannical dictatorship. Wonder why.




you wouldn't be blaming corporate influence on politics would you? Don't you now where freedum comes from son
:niggawhat:


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InvisibleTFI
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Registered: 04/06/14
Posts: 345
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23856460 - 11/22/16 08:04 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

TFI said:
Quote:

sudly said:
Even though the US is one of the most affluent nations in the world they are still incapable of providing basic needs for their people.



So forcing healthcare down the american peoples throat is the solution?



"Forcing healthcare down the American peoples throat"

So you think having healthcare is a bad thing?  You think when people get sick they should have to choose between bankruptcy and death?  No thanks.

What needs to happen is to make healthcare affordable for the masses like they do in all other developed countries.  The problem is that conservatives cry about taxing the rich more, and insist they'd rather have no healthcare than cheap healthcare.  :flowstone:





Why cant people mind their own business.. Why do you have to tell me to buy healthcare?? Maybe i dont want healthcare... Fuck isnt that part of being free?! Thats what liberals cant wrap their minds around... Like paying for car insurance. Here i sit paying 200+ a month for a possibility that maybe something will happen.. How about i keep my 200 and pay outta pocket when said shit does hit the fan. Oh wait cant do that? Youll write me a ticket? Make me pay a fine if i dont have health oh i mean car insurance...

Lemme ask you this if everyone keep taxing the rich what do you think will happen?

My guess is that the rich will pack their bags and go somewhere cheaper, afterall they can afford it. They will send their evil evil corperations overseas like they already do.. Then who will create jobs? You? Me? The poor? Hahahaha


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 1
    #23857164 - 11/22/16 12:16 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

TFI said:
Why cant people mind their own business.. Why do you have to tell me to buy healthcare?? Maybe i dont want healthcare... Fuck isnt that part of being free?!



That's what conservatism has boiled down to:  "I'd rather the bottom 99% be poor and sick rather than increasing taxes on the top 1% because... FREEDOM!"  :flowstone:


Quote:

TFI said:
Thats what liberals cant wrap their minds around...



I've wrapped my mind around it, and I personally prefer wealthy and healthy over tax cuts for the rich.

Quote:

TFI said:
Like paying for car insurance. Here i sit paying 200+ a month for a possibility that maybe something will happen.. How about i keep my 200 and pay outta pocket when said shit does hit the fan. Oh wait cant do that?



You can do that!  In California (for example) if you purchase a surety bond for $35,000, they'll let you go without insurance.  If you have an accident, they'll use that money to cover what you owe to others.  FREEDOM!

Quote:

TFI said:
Lemme ask you this if everyone keep taxing the rich what do you think will happen?

My guess is that the rich will pack their bags and go somewhere cheaper, afterall they can afford it.



That's what they said would happen in California, but all the best high tech companies are staying put.  States with the highest tax rates are also the most desirable to live in, because those taxes actually are used to make the state better.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleTFI
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Posts: 345
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23859651 - 11/23/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Funny considering i know of three spur makers who moved from california due to the taxes. (Spurs are what go on boots to ride horses) their a true american made small business forced out due to higher taxes.

You still must not understand that certain people dont want to buy healthcare, so since me and a huge number of people dont want to buy it why dont you and the government pay for us to have it?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 52 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: TFI] * 3
    #23859738 - 11/23/16 07:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

We do.

Either through insurance premiums or tax dollars, we are paying for the uninsured one way or another.

Its like when you have to have uninsurwd motorist coverage for your car. You have to pay an extra fee in case someone without insurance crashes into you, because the consumer always has to eat the cost. We eat the costs of uninsured hospital visits too.


Stop being such a whiny little baby and pay for health insurance. Or dont...and pay the tax penalty. Or dont do either and get sent to jail.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23859975 - 11/23/16 09:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Stop being such a whiny little baby and pay for health insurance. Or dont...and pay the tax penalty. Or dont do either and get sent to jail.




:lolsy:

Quote:

What happens if I don’t pay the penalty?

The IRS may offset your income tax refund to collect the penalty, but that’s about it. Unlike other situations where the tax agency can garnish wages or file liens to collect unpaid taxes, the health law prohibits these activities in cases where people don’t pay the penalty for not having insurance.




http://khn.org/news/what-are-the-penalties-for-not-getting-insurance/


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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