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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23924460 - 12/13/16 10:04 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Edit:wrong thread.


--------------------
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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 1
    #23924470 - 12/13/16 10:07 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
"Does that not sound reasonable?"

It does, but my solution would have guaranteed the big banks were busted up, today we are left with the same issues and centralized source of power- the big banks.




And collapsed the economy. Anyway, your solution sounds pretty anti-Semitic.

:trollhide:

Quote:

I think if capitalism was given a chance to work, the risks of a long depression would have been low. The best part would have been the new system after the death of the old system.




Capitalism has been given many chances to work. It turns out, the more you regulate it, the less unstable it is. We need only look to the 1800's to see this.

Quote:

There were regional bank failures in the early 1990's, the bank that held my father's real estate firm mortgage debt went under and the debt was bought by another bank on the cheap, as a result they were able to reduce my father's mortgage debt in half while still making a great profit.

This is capitalism, the same could have been done for Joe Six-Pack and his mortgage debt, did anyone renegotiate his terms?  No, he got nothing but an eviction notice.




I'm not going to pretend to know how all of that shit works, because I don't. I'll allow someone else to chime in on that point.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23924512 - 12/13/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
let's go back to the gold standard, and duel it out with shovels.

no more government backed currency!




you only say that because Canada is still full of gold



:banyouverymuch:

(i needed an excuse to use this honestly :lol:)


Edited by akira_akuma (12/13/16 11:41 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 1
    #23924579 - 12/13/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The top percentile lost more money as a percentage than anyone, actually.



The loss was very temporary, the end result was even more wealth inequality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States



This is what I saw in your link:

It appears to show the wealthy bounced back, but not to where they were before the recession.  :shrug:

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And Joe six pack avoided a Great Depression.



That's speculation on your part and nothing more.



It's a LOT more than speculation.  I've explained before that Henry Paulson, a free market champion who hated Government intervention and who allowed Lehman Brothers to fail, realized that Lehman's failure had greatly sped up the recession as Lehman took other companies down with it, and that bailouts had become necessary to save the economy.  I know no one is probably interested in a one hour documentary, but this Front Line episode did an incredible job of going very deep into meltdown story.

Quote:

qman said:
You do realize bankruptcy and bond defaults are a natural part of capitalism?  It doesn't mean it's the end of the world by any means.



Not the end of the world, but we've seen the devastating effects of the Great Depression, and do you know how we finally ended it?  Through massive spending, much like the bailouts.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
Where was Joe Six-Pack's bailout?



This an oft overlooked point.  Why bail out the banks when we could have bailed out the homeowners?  The borrowers could have paid off the banks, and kept their homes.  Instead, we bailed out the banks, they foreclosed on the homes and used the bailout money for executive bonuses.



Agreed, though I wonder how people who weren't delinquent would have reacted to see their neighbors getting a shitload of taxpayer money because they were stupid?  I certainly would have been pissed, because I was never delinquent on my home.  Not an easy situation to resolve.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Registered: 03/11/15
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #23924597 - 12/13/16 10:58 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
Where was Joe Six-Pack's bailout?



This an oft overlooked point.  Why bail out the banks when we could have bailed out the homeowners?  The borrowers could have paid off the banks, and kept their homes.  Instead, we bailed out the banks, they foreclosed on the homes and used the bailout money for executive bonuses.



Agreed, though I wonder how people who weren't delinquent would have reacted to see their neighbors getting a shitload of taxpayer money because they were stupid?  I certainly would have been pissed, because I was never delinquent on my home.  Not an easy situation to resolve.  :shrug:




Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23924616 - 12/13/16 11:12 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.




Next election... I'm writing in 'Ballsalsa'..


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23924618 - 12/13/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.



:thatsinteresting:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineC mush
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Registered: 12/13/16
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Loc: Usa
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23924634 - 12/13/16 11:23 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Free education and free health care for all!


--------------------
"Life is as beautiful and ugly as a mushroom, for the mear image of a mushroom is simple, overlooked, and unappreciated yet the function and possibility are wonderous and amazing "


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: C mush] * 2
    #23924636 - 12/13/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

C mush said:
Free education and free health care for all!




Tax funded* :wink:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineC mush
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 4
    #23924649 - 12/13/16 11:34 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Tax funded* :wink:





That's right lets quit spending it towards invading weaker countries and redirect it towards bettering our own country:cool:


--------------------
"Life is as beautiful and ugly as a mushroom, for the mear image of a mushroom is simple, overlooked, and unappreciated yet the function and possibility are wonderous and amazing "


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: C mush]
    #23924659 - 12/13/16 11:39 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

:toast:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 2
    #23924698 - 12/14/16 12:05 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.




Next election... I'm writing in 'Ballsalsa'..




Vote Ballsalsa, Get Paid.

its not a terrible slogan.


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: C mush]
    #23924850 - 12/14/16 01:51 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

C mush said:
Tax funded* :wink:





That's right lets quit spending it towards invading weaker countries and redirect it towards bettering our own country:cool:




I like the way you think, buddy :smile:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23924851 - 12/14/16 01:52 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.




Next election... I'm writing in 'Ballsalsa'..




Vote Ballsalsa, Get Paid.

its not a terrible slogan.




Vote Balls, or fuck you!

That's better :wink:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 7 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23925267 - 12/14/16 08:53 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

qman said:
Do you even understand what took place?  Joe Six-Pack got screwed as the rich got even rich thanks to the bailouts.




yeah...and?

cause and effect. Joe Six Pack was bound to get screwed either way.




Yeah, but the elites never felt any pain. They want capitalism for everybody but themselves, then it's "we need a bailout.  Where was Joe Six-Pack's bailout?




This an oft overlooked point.  Why bail out the banks when we could have bailed out the homeowners?  The borrowers could have paid off the banks, and kept their homes.  Instead, we bailed out the banks, they foreclosed on the homes and used the bailout money for executive bonuses.




Yes. Although, the banks had to pay the money back. However, I think you could have had homeowners pay the money back. The economy would be thriving. After the Great Depression, we bailed out the people with the New Deal. That's the approach we probably should have taken here.




"the banks had to pay the money back"

https://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/financial-stability/reports/Pages/TARP-Tracker.aspx

Yes the TARP funds, but most of the bailout money was through the Federal Reserves QE program, that will never be paid back.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23925308 - 12/14/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The top percentile lost more money as a percentage than anyone, actually.



The loss was very temporary, the end result was even more wealth inequality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States



This is what I saw in your link:

It appears to show the wealthy bounced back, but not to where they were before the recession.  :shrug:

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And Joe six pack avoided a Great Depression.



That's speculation on your part and nothing more.



It's a LOT more than speculation.  I've explained before that Henry Paulson, a free market champion who hated Government intervention and who allowed Lehman Brothers to fail, realized that Lehman's failure had greatly sped up the recession as Lehman took other companies down with it, and that bailouts had become necessary to save the economy.  I know no one is probably interested in a one hour documentary, but this Front Line episode did an incredible job of going very deep into meltdown story.

Quote:

qman said:
You do realize bankruptcy and bond defaults are a natural part of capitalism?  It doesn't mean it's the end of the world by any means.



Not the end of the world, but we've seen the devastating effects of the Great Depression, and do you know how we finally ended it?  Through massive spending, much like the bailouts.

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
Where was Joe Six-Pack's bailout?



This an oft overlooked point.  Why bail out the banks when we could have bailed out the homeowners?  The borrowers could have paid off the banks, and kept their homes.  Instead, we bailed out the banks, they foreclosed on the homes and used the bailout money for executive bonuses.



Agreed, though I wonder how people who weren't delinquent would have reacted to see their neighbors getting a shitload of taxpayer money because they were stupid?  I certainly would have been pissed, because I was never delinquent on my home.  Not an easy situation to resolve.  :shrug:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_United_States

"However, after the Great Recession which started in 2007, the share of total wealth owned by the top 1% of the population grew from 35% to 37%...2014...the top wealthiest 1% possess 40% of the nation's wealth"

"Through massive spending, much like the bailouts"

Apples and oranges, one was the bailout of financial institutions where the money stayed on Wall Street, while one was direct fiscal stimulus where the money entered Main Street.


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 7 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23925322 - 12/14/16 09:20 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
Where was Joe Six-Pack's bailout?



This an oft overlooked point.  Why bail out the banks when we could have bailed out the homeowners?  The borrowers could have paid off the banks, and kept their homes.  Instead, we bailed out the banks, they foreclosed on the homes and used the bailout money for executive bonuses.



Agreed, though I wonder how people who weren't delinquent would have reacted to see their neighbors getting a shitload of taxpayer money because they were stupid?  I certainly would have been pissed, because I was never delinquent on my home.  Not an easy situation to resolve.  :shrug:




Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.




"Just pay everyone, Economic Stimulus and bailout"

Yes, but the people at the top do NOT want economic stimulus, Obama promised direct stimulus and we ended up with NOTHING, Trump has promised direct stimulus and we will end up with NOTHING is my guess.

If we stimulate we increase inflation which makes interest rates go higher, as a result bond prices trade lower, the elite own so much debt they don't want to see the capital disappear.

The reason why we have a low "growth" and low inflationary economic environment is deliberate, the rich get richer as everyone else suffers.


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OfflineBigbadwooof
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman] * 3
    #23925393 - 12/14/16 09:48 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)



Nick Hanauer gave this little Ted Talk for a reason, and that reason isn't because he's some generous dude, or Socialist. He's worried that the socialists will be coming for him and his pocketbook if the trends continue.




I might add, we most certainly will.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"There is no need for conspiracy where interests converge" - George Carlin
Every one of you should see this video.
"If you bombard the earth with photons for a while, it can emit a roadster" - Andrej Kerpathy


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: qman]
    #23925689 - 12/14/16 11:36 AM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
the banks had to pay the money back.



https://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/financial-stability/reports/Pages/TARP-Tracker.aspx

Yes the TARP funds, but most of the bailout money was through the Federal Reserves QE program, that will never be paid back.



What makes you say it will never be paid back?  The Fed now holds a shitload of bonds from QE that they can cash in at anytime to take the stimulus money back out of the economy to prevent runaway inflation.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
we've seen the devastating effects of the Great Depression, and do you know how we finally ended it?  Through massive spending, much like the bailouts.



Apples and oranges, one was the bailout of financial institutions where the money stayed on Wall Street, while one was direct fiscal stimulus where the money entered Main Street.



I've said MANY times that more should have gone to Main St.  But the concept is still same - pumping enough money into the economy stops depressions.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.



Yes, but the people at the top do NOT want economic stimulus.

If we stimulate we increase inflation which makes interest rates go higher, as a result bond prices trade lower, the elite own so much debt they don't want to see the capital disappear.

The reason why we have a low "growth" and low inflationary economic environment is deliberate, the rich get richer as everyone else suffers.



The solution is still valid, whether people at the top want it or not.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 7 minutes
Re: Socialism vs democracy [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23925931 - 12/14/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
the banks had to pay the money back.



https://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/financial-stability/reports/Pages/TARP-Tracker.aspx

Yes the TARP funds, but most of the bailout money was through the Federal Reserves QE program, that will never be paid back.



What makes you say it will never be paid back?  The Fed now holds a shitload of bonds from QE that they can cash in at anytime to take the stimulus money back out of the economy to prevent runaway inflation.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
we've seen the devastating effects of the Great Depression, and do you know how we finally ended it?  Through massive spending, much like the bailouts.



Apples and oranges, one was the bailout of financial institutions where the money stayed on Wall Street, while one was direct fiscal stimulus where the money entered Main Street.



I've said MANY times that more should have gone to Main St.  But the concept is still same - pumping enough money into the economy stops depressions.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Just pay everyone.  Economic Stimulus and bailout rolled into one and delivered to the people who can actually use it to stimulate the economy.  Cancel a few wings of bunk F-35's and worthless Patriot missiles to offset some of the costs. Problem solved.



Yes, but the people at the top do NOT want economic stimulus.

If we stimulate we increase inflation which makes interest rates go higher, as a result bond prices trade lower, the elite own so much debt they don't want to see the capital disappear.

The reason why we have a low "growth" and low inflationary economic environment is deliberate, the rich get richer as everyone else suffers.



The solution is still valid, whether people at the top want it or not.




"take the stimulus out of the economy"

Yeah, like that's ever going to happen. :rofl2:

"more should have gone to Main St."

That's an understatement, flooding Wall Street with money that never found its way into the general economy, the velocity of money tells us that story, same with massive wealth inequality.

"But the concept is still the same"

No it's not, one policy creates economic growth, higher wages, a strong middle-class and less wealth/income inequality. The other policy creates what we have today, slow growth with slow inflation while asset classes (stocks, bonds, real estate) trade at all-time highs.

"The solution is still valid"

I agree, Trump's infrastructure stimulus is likely to never happen, top Congressmen from his own party have already pissed on it many times in the last few weeks.

They're going to give the very rich and big corporations some tax cuts which will be revenue neutral, that's about it. The rich will get rich as the middle class goes even deeper down the hole.


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