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Proof that faith is a crock?
    #1204156 -

It's been pretty well established in this forum that the existance of a God and/or a soul can't be proven or disproven.  But many people claim they know  these exist because they have "opened their heart", or "searched for the truth", or "have felt God's presense", or "have seen him while tripping",  etc.

I might actually buy those arguments.  Except they ALL have one VERY serious flaw.  People who absolutely positively know the "truth" disagree with one another!  This means they are necessarily WRONG!!!  If everyone did see the same "truth", then I would almost certainly believe everyone.  But the "truth" is almost always either the reiligion that one was born into or it is one that someone attached themselves to because it sounded beautiful.

Don't these differences in what people "know" is the absulute truth PROVE that faith is a crock???  :tongue:   


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204190 -

old story -
a group of blind men were at the zoo. the zookeeper took them to the elephants cage, opened the door and let them in, 'go on check it out, the elephant is very placid'.
the first guy groped around until he found the elephants trunk, he wrapped his hands around it and studied its girth and length, 'an elephant is like a thick rope' he informed the others.
the 2nd man found one of the elephant's ears, 'no', he argued, 'an elephant is like a giant palm leaf.'
the third found a leg,' no, you guys are stupid, an elephant is like a tree"
the 4th, the tail,'what are you guys on? an elephant is like a snake'.
they started arguing about their conclusions. the 4th fellow tried to walk around to beat some sense into the others, but walked into the side of the elephant and fell down backwards, 'watch-out' he shouted 'its attacking me!'


maybe its best not to be certain about things we don't have the facilities to fully comprehend.
our 5 senses only detect a very small percentage of what is.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1204272 -

In other words, they're ALL wrong, because no one knows what the hell they're looking at!!!  :shocked:  Everyone thinks they know what they see, but none of them figured out the truth.

Of course, blind people aren't as stupid as the ones in the story you told.  If the story were real, they would all have a similar answer.  But I understand the point you were trying to make. 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (01/09/03 01:59 PM)

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1204342 -

If God doesn't exist and people are delusional then reports of truth or encounters with the Supreme Being would be different as GoBlue states.

Yet with your much overused parable we are supposed to overlook the obvious answer that the facts support encounters as being all internal mindstuff and not divine. Other than a fable, what would steer us to believe otherwise?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204365 -

I think they might feel the truth for a split second but then they fool themselves when they try and describe it or put a label on it. But it's the closest reminder they have so they hold onto it tightly.

Whatever IT is, I know I can not hold onto it, let alone comprehend it. I've learned not to feel upset by this.

It is something you feel in every speck of your body and soul. But as soon as you try and rationalize, the gold from inside you turns to dust as it ruins itself, clumbsily strewn about by a desolate language.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Grav]
    #1204401 -

Describing the "truth" is not as important as living the "truth", yet those who claim to have seen apparently remain unchanged.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Swami]
    #1204434 -

Quote:

the facts support encounters as being all internal mindstuff and not divine


i most heartily agree, it's all in the mind.
but that leaves us with the question - what is mind?

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204463 -

Excellent post, crisper.


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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Grav]
    #1204506 -

your post reminded me of something i read long ago and shares some similar ideas -

from dion fortune's 'the mystical qabalah'

"illumination consists in the introduction of the mind to a higher mode of consciousness than that which is built up out of sensory experience.

in illumination, the mind changes gear, as it were. unless, however, the new mode of consciousness is connected up with the old and translated into terms of finite thought, it remains as a flash of light so brilliant that it blinds.

we do not see by means of the ray of light that shines upon us, but by means of the amount of that ray which is reflected from objects of our own dimension upon which it lights.

unless there are ideas in our minds which are illuminated by this higher mode of consciousness , our minds are merely overwhelmed, and the darkness is more intense to our eyes after that blinding experience of a high mode of consciousness than it was before.

in fact, we do not so much change gear as throw the engine of our mind out of gear altogether. this, for the most part, is what so-called illumination amounts to.
there is enough of a flash to convince us of the reality of super-physical existence, but not enough to teach us anything of its nature."

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1204510 -

Mind is the perceptual result of an individual's lifetime of imprinting on the brain.


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The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (01/09/03 03:30 PM)

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Swami]
    #1204591 -

Quote:

Mind is the preceptual result of an individual's lifetime of imprinting on the brain.


what is preceptual? not in my dictionary....perceptual?

do you mean to say that mind is simply a chemical process?
like an organic information storage system?
what would be the purpose of these decaying lumps of meat retaining all those drudging memories?
seems a bit far-fetched.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1204621 -

Quote:

It's all in the mind.  But that leaves us with the question - what is mind? 



Hey, that's throwing in a "red herring".  Back to the topic at hand!  :mad: :wink:

(I believe Mr. Mushrooms would be proud of that observation.)  :smirk:   


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1204626 -

"higher mode of consciousness" = imagination  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204673 -

(I believe Mr. Mushrooms would be proud of that observation.)

He is.  Just don't get caught up in all that logic stuff.  Critical thinking has its downside. :wink:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1204691 -

what would be the purpose of these decaying lumps of meat retaining all those drudging memories?

Who said there was a purpose?  :confused: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
    #1204696 -

Just don't get caught up in all that logic stuff.

LOL.  :grin: 

It's the way my mind works.  I just can't believe anything if it's not logical.  :tongue:   


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204709 -

Quote:

Don't these differences in what people "know" is the absulute truth PROVE that faith is a crock???


The only thing this proves is that humans are not capable of interpreting the ABSOLUTE truth. It will always be tainted with an individual's subjective bias.

Faith is an inner thing. And seeing as to how every being is at least slightly different, this would mean that every interpretation of Spirit will be at least slightly different.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1204735 -

Yes mr crisper that is an old story immortalized in a poem by John Godfrey Saxe and sometimes attributed to Rudyard Kipling. I have heard that poem since I was dandled on my Mother's knee when she used to read to me from the Childcraft series circa 1955. The inspiration was for the poem was a Buddhist fable found just below the poem.




"It was six men of Indostan

To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he, "Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: " 'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

The Blind Men and the Elephant

A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are living here in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who indulge in constant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite and eternal and others that it is finite and not eternal, some saying that the soul dies with the body and others that it lives on forever, and so forth. What, Sir, would you say concerning them?"

The Buddha answered, "Once upon a time there was a certain raja who called to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.

"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'

"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied, 'An elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with a tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was a plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back, a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.

"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came to blows over the matter.

"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.

"Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."

Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of uplift,

O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.
Jainism and Buddhism. Udana 68-69:

Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Udana 68-69: We give a version of this well-known Indian tale from the Buddhist canon, but some assert it is of Jain origin. It does illustrate well the Jain doctrine of Anekanta, the manysidedness of things. Cf. Tattvarthaslokavartika 116, p. 806. Mihir Yast 10.2: Cf. Analects 15.5, p. 1020

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Adamist]
    #1204746 -

The only thing this proves is that humans are not capable of interpreting the ABSOLUTE truth.

Great point.  They may interpret what they see as "God", when in fact it is really the all powerful Mr. Hankey.    :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204793 -

i've got to say that i'm in the boat with the "people aren't prepared/unable to completely comprehend the true divinity in the universe" group.  As previously stated, our five? :wink: senses detect a very small amount of the total information around us, and we exist in an extremely small area, universally speaking.

the point that came to me one day when i was mowing my lawn was this:
i was thinking about how nothing ever happens without something making it happen, apples don't just appear, things don't just "become" something has to make them, which presents the question, if the big bang happened, where did the stuff it resulted from come from, wouldn't it make more sense for nothing to ever exist at all? I mean, reality itself must have a starting or beginning point. And i'm not just talking about infinite space with nothing in it, but  nothing at all, no reality, zip, zilch, nadda.  When this came to me it came like a bullet and was acommpanied by a pretty intense flashback and the feeling something, somthing aware, was making contact with me, but since them the memory has become hazy, and even the most incredible moments of my life are shrouded in mist. :frown:

oh, and as far as lack of preception goes, it's our own damn fault for living in three dimensions. :grin:


 


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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204794 -

I believe many of these interpretations of one having a divine experience stem from ego death, when you feel that your dying on shrooms and then accept it, many people consider this proof of a GOD for they felt so enlightened and amazed at this the only answer they come up with is a divine experience.

But then again, we are not extremely spiritually advanced, Mushrooms and Psychedelics allow you to peer within the subconscious and discover knowledge, wisdom, and "enlightenment".
We do not know and we cannot argue about what happens after death.
I try and understand it from a semi-logical point of view, where science and spirituality are at one.


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Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
ŦēҜй? - ??ĜįĈ?? ҒűČҝĮńĜ ?đVǻŃčЄмЄńŦ

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: trippinlizard]
    #1204828 -

things don't just "become" something has to make them

If there were a god, don't you think he'd be thinking the same thing about his own existance???  :tongue: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1204988 -

i always thought of god as eternal (my interpertion as "beyond time").  without time nothing can become, it simply is, but yer point is still a mindbender. :smile:
it will probably help to explain my concept of god as spirit, in that everything, reality as we know it, is ethereal and exists only in spirit's mind, spirit being reality itself. yeah, if that makes any sense in words :wink:



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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205198 -

I believe 'God' is more of a force of nature, not a supereme being. God was created along with everything else.


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Murex]
    #1205204 -

I think God IS the force of nature...  :smile: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Swami]
    #1205738 -

Describing the "truth" is not as important as living the "truth", yet those who claim to have seen apparently remain unchanged.


I agree, and I think those who do live it are simply aware of and comfortable with themselves in this lifetime and don't need to cling to any sort of shallow description. They haven't necessarily "talked with god", but just have taken an honest look at the world around them. And happiness follows.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1205742 -

At the time when I started tripping, whenever I would play music, I had to know that I was connecting with some mystical force of the universe. Like I had to have that magic present or I felt somewhat lost.
I really had to believe I was talking with spirits and whatnot and that it was REAL.

Now I play music because it makes me feel good to create, and I think it inspires others to do something creative that makes them feel good. I don't need any more of a 'connection' than that.

I think that's sort of a way of looking at truth. Maybe it's alot more simple than we assume

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Murex]
    #1205765 -

Quote:

I believe 'God' is more of a force of nature, not a supereme being. God was created along with everything else.


I like that, kind of like the conscience behind nature, you would think every planet with life has this natural consciousness, which in turn influences the environment to evolve.



--------------------
Listen, or your tongue will keep you deaf. :wink:
ŦēҜй? - ??ĜįĈ?? ҒűČҝĮńĜ ?đVǻŃčЄмЄńŦ

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Murex]
    #1205845 -

Quote:

God was created along with everything else.



nice one murex - bingo!
the mind is a wonderful thing.
i i i i i'm just a stepping stone.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Grav]
    #1205909 -

Quote:

whenever I would play music, I had to know that I was connecting with some mystical force of the universe. Like I had to have that magic present or I felt somewhat lost.
I really had to believe I was talking with spirits and whatnot and that it was REAL.

I think that's sort of a way of looking at truth. Maybe it's alot more simple than we assume



Music is strange indeed. We know why the body enjoys food and sex (survival of the species), but why does it also enjoy music??? I'm not convinced that the answer is because it connects us with "the spirits", because I'm not so sure any actual "communication" is going on during music. If you believe you are talking with the spirits, what's the message???


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Grav]
    #1206335 -

...
I think that's sort of a way of looking at truth. Maybe it's alot more simple than we assume

And the door cracks open a little more...


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1206525 -

Truth is simple... Sometimes so simple, I think, that it cannot be expressed in words. :wink: Thus you get infinite variations, infinite metaphors of the same Thing, which could be described as "Life". There, I described it in one word, the concept that everyone is argueing over! We Are Alive.

Care to argue?  :smirk: 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
    #1206720 -

Excellent parable.  Another word document in my files :grin:


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Adamist]
    #1206738 -

Quote:

Truth is simple... Sometimes so simple, I think, that it cannot be expressed in words. :wink: Thus you get infinite variations, infinite metaphors of the same Thing, which could be described as "Life". There, I described it in one word, the concept that everyone is argueing over! We Are Alive.

Care to argue?  :smirk:   



Oh, I'll argue!  :grin:

"So simple it cannot be expressed in words"???  You've got it backwards - the simpler things are, the easier they are to express in words.  Not a valid excuse for a lack of an argument.

"Thus you get infinite variations, infinite metaphors of the same Thing".  I don't think people are seeing the same thing.  I know one person who swears he can talk to God during meditation, and God has told him Christianity is bullshit.  People are seeing  different things, not a variation of the same thing.

"'Life'.  There, I described it one word, the concept that everyone is arguing over!  We Are Alive."  Did I miss something???  I thought this thread was about faith, not life.  I'll agree with you - we are alive.  But faith appears to be a crock.   


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1206795 -

Quote:

I don't think people are seeing the same thing. I know one person who swears he can talk to God during meditation, and God has told him Christianity is bullshit. People are seeing different things, not a variation of the same thing.


It's not about seeing, it's about feeling. Faith is a feeling. Spirit can only be felt, not seen. Things that can be seen are illusory, that is- what you see all depends on where you are looking from.


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1206820 -

Quote:

Did I miss something??? I thought this thread was about faith, not life. I'll agree with you - we are alive. But faith appears to be a crock.


Faith is one of man's ways to try and explain Life. Life, in my opinion, cannot be absolutely explained while inside of it. Yes, faith could be looked at as a crock, but so could every system that we have devised to try to explain the unexplainable. They are all valid in their own relative reality, but absolutely, none of them are. (Or all of them are, depending on how you look at it.)


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1206832 -

Also, I'll throw this in:

Faith is used where logic will not work. Some people think that the entire universe is logical, but I don't think so. :wink:

Faith is a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Some things can not be logically proven and do not leave material evidence, like such things as soul/spirit/god/love....which are actually all the same thing I think. 


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Adamist]
    #1206860 -

Quote:

Faith is one of man's ways to try and explain Life. Life, in my opinion, cannot be absolutely explained while inside of it. Yes, faith could be looked at as a crock, but so could  every system that we have devised to try to explain the unexplainable. They are all valid in their own relative reality, but absolutely, none of them are. (Or all of them are, depending on how you look at it.) 



I think I agree with everything you just said.  Especially "depending on how you look at it."  Since there are different ways to look at it (e.g., they're all valid, or none of them are valid), how can you know which is the correct way???  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1207158 -


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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
    #1207176 -

I haven't heard but one or two people say "better safe than sorry" in here... which would be the equivalent of Pascal's wager.

However, in daily life, I hear it EVERYWHERE.
It really is sad that people call that faith.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1207188 -

I have faith that GoBlue! and/or schlorch can shred any of these weak arguments for the power of faith.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1207209 -

Any religon that you have to pay money to in order to go to heaven is a crock.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Murex]
    #1207232 -

Judaism and Christianity both believe in tithing or giving 10% of one's income to God's work (whatever THAT means!).


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1207264 -

faith is pretty lame considering that to have faith in something means you are doubting its existence

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
    #1207287 -

Quote:

old story -
a group of blind men were at the zoo. the zookeeper took them to the elephants cage, opened the door and let them in, 'go on check it out, the elephant is very placid'.
the first guy groped around until he found the elephants trunk, he wrapped his hands around it and studied its girth and length, 'an elephant is like a thick rope' he informed the others.
the 2nd man found one of the elephant's ears, 'no', he argued, 'an elephant is like a giant palm leaf.'
the third found a leg,' no, you guys are stupid, an elephant is like a tree"
the 4th, the tail,'what are you guys on? an elephant is like a snake'.
they started arguing about their conclusions. the 4th fellow tried to walk around to beat some sense into the others, but walked into the side of the elephant and fell down backwards, 'watch-out' he shouted 'its attacking me!'


maybe its best not to be certain about things we don't have the facilities to fully comprehend.
our 5 senses only detect a very small percentage of what is.



i have that sorty....in a really old...really cool story book

in believe in what i believe in



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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?

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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Sclorch]
    #1207336 -


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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
    #1207527 -

Quote:

any of you consider pascals wager?



Pascal's wager actaully sounds good, except for one major issue: Pascal assumed that there are only two alternative bets; become a Roman Catholic or not. But those are not the only two choices. There are an infinite number of beliefs that could be chosen from, so your odds of betting on the right one (assuming any of them are right) are very slim, if not impossible. Here's a link I found in another thread:

Rejection of Pascal's Wager


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1207535 -

All religions are right for those that think they are.

If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real?


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Adamist]
    #1207602 -

Quote:

If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real?



You know, that's a damn good question! I don't know the anwer. Any thoughts on this from the Shroomery???


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1207763 -

Quote:

Quote:

If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real? 



You know, that's a damn good question!  I don't know the anwer.  Any thoughts on this from the Shroomery??? 



Experience is experience. :grin:


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1207850 -

Quote:

Experience is experience. :grin: 


I don't get it.  :confused: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1208018 -

Quote:

Quote:

If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real?



You know, that's a damn good question! I don't know the anwer. Any thoughts on this from the Shroomery???



why would the effects be less real? if you can guage the effects, they're obviously real

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1208121 -

Quote:

Experience is experience.



Exactly.

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? *DELETED* [Re: ]
    #1208150 -

Post deleted by OkEyToKeY

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
    #1208200 -

I guess I inadvertantly struck a nerve...

i never said i followed it, nor did i ever say it was incontrovertible
personally, i do NOT go with "better safe than sorry"
I never said YOU subscribe to Pascal's wager.

You, on the other hand, seem to love probability and what you call pragmatism,
???
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here... oh well.

so i gave you something I thought youd at least CONSIDER
note: read realllllly carefully, i said "consider"
Riiiight. I'm quite familiar with Pascal. But whenever there is a "proof" or whatever, I'm going to critique it... I was just stating what I thought- free of charge!

I dont mean to sound cheeky, but im a tad annoyed when people twist my words and then say stuff like "It really is sad that people call that faith"- which had NOTHING to do with anything i said, faith itself is not something that probability touches upon

I think it has EVERYTHING to do with Pascal's wager.
I'm sorry if you don't see it that way.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: OkEyToKeY]
    #1208424 -

Quote:

Everything is relative to the frame from within which it is viewed.


But what if you step outside the frame?


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:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: deep_umbra]
    #1208602 -

Quote:

Why would the effects be less real? if you can guage the effects, they're obviously real



Ya, I guess the question is whether or not a placebo actually works, or if it is only perceived to work. If a person has a headache and takes a placebo, they may feel better and we would conclude the placebo worked. But if a person has cancer and goes to Benny Hinn for help, the placebo effect may help that person feel healed. But they could still end up dying from cancer, and in that case we would conclude that the placebo didn't work.

So if we think there is a God and there really isn't, our lives may run exactly as if there were one. But when we die, there would still be no heaven, so in that case, the placebo wouldn't work.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1208736 -

There are two main schools of mysticism, which is what you are referring to when you cite people's Experience of God. One school, which is not as prevalent, holds to a PCE or Pure Consciousness Experience, which is deemed universal and completely uncolored by an individual's psychological, cultural or religious background.

The other school (actually, a group of schools with varying differences) is the Constuctionist school of mysticism which insists that all mystical experiences are in some degree interactive with one's religious beliefs. That is, the Exprience is both colored by pre-existing notions, and also constructs one's beliefs based upon the Experience itself.

Faith qua faith is a completely separate category of knowledge. It is more closely related to intuition than to sensation as a mode of apprehending Reality, and like intuition, it works independently of the sense organs. Most people have 'faith' in their senses and the rational mind. Faith in GOD, at least according to Christian principles of theology, derive from GOD - from That aspect of GOD called the Holy Spirit, which is apparently That aspect which can interface (for lack of a better word) with the human spirit (or, consciousness). Faith in GOD, is therefore, a 'gift of the Holy Spirit,' and can be 'asked for' which is an open-minded and open-hearted state of consciousness, and is also a 'prayer.'

Faith does not always, or even usually, give rise to 'certainty.' Certainty or 'assurance' is the result of living a life of faith. In other words, having faith in faith, despite empirical evidence to the contrary, can eventually bring about a level of Illumination or Enlightenment, in which a type of assurance or knowing comes about. In my own prayer life, this happens after a petitionary prayer at times, and when it does occur, the prayer invariably corresponds to the future event asked for. I am 'assured' of the results of the petitionary prayer at the time of the prayer. I feel like giving thanks (prayer of thanksgiving), and I am never deceived or disappointed. As I have gotten older, I have become more in touch with these subtle inner events. Theologically speaking, assurance is an aspect of spiritual development called 'Sanctification,' in which one is becoming increasingly Sanctified, Whole, and Holy (Holiness derives meaning from Wholeness). Yes, 'Holiness' obviously has a strong moral quality, but then 'Enlightenment' (so often used at the Shroomery) doesn't have as close an association to morality in the minds of Shroomerites. They are identical however, regardless of whether one is a Theist or not. If, for example, casual sex and petty dishonesties are obstacles to Holiness, they are obstacles to Enlightenment, Illumination, or whatever one wants to define higher states of being.

Nevertheless, this all gets back to faith. Basic ethics are prerequisite to morality based on Compassion, and faith in Compassion (as The Way) is prerequisite to faith in Wisdom which 'descends from On High.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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