|
 Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
|
 Life without Faith is impossible 
#6228971 - 10/30/06 10:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I can already hear the angry protests from all my happy healthy non -theist friends.
But i am not talking about faith in god. I am talking about an obvious fact: that in the modern world, it is impossible for any person to understand even a tiny fraction of the phenomenon which we experience.
For example, few of us really understand how a telephone works, how radiowaves function, how electricity is generated or distributed. Few of us can really explain the functions of our own bodies, much less the natural processes governing rainfall, ocean currents, geological mineral dispersion...
the fact is, there just isnt enough time for anyone to perform all the research they would need to understand even a tiny portion of the technology they take for granted, or to really prove to themselves even a minuite slice of the explanations they have absorbed for how various natural phenomenon occur.
For example, any teenager can tell you clouds are evaporated hydrogen gas. How does the child know this? he absolutely does not. He has accepted this explanation on faith from those in authority over him, be they parents or teachers.
What is electricity? what is evaporation? how does sound work? what is light?
many of us take comfort knowing that we have modern, scientifically sound answers for these questions. But unless we have personally set up a laboratory and conducted the nescessary experiments ourselves, then we are simply accepting the word of various authors or publishers on faith.
In the digital age, this dilemma becomes hilariously compounded. Because of the incredible density of information at our fingertips, it takes no effort at all to dig up a thousand sources "proving" a certain point, and a thousand sources "debunking it"
Ultimatly, whichever way we go it becomes a question of faith. Which words on a page command your belief? website A or website B? scientist A or scientist B? Interpretation A or Interpretation B?
Heres a hypothetical situation:
Mo: hey check out this article proving that faith healing works!
Jo: "ROFL! OMG, didnt you see this article debunking that one?
the fact is, neither article can be considered anything other than a prop for a preexisting faith.
What im thinking is that as we are submerged in ever deeper levels of reality, unreality, hyperreality and meta-reality, it will become increasingly more laughable to try and base your understanding of reality on laboratory results or published papers.
The fact is that todays acadamia and scientists are simply the modern preist hood.
My point in this is simply that life without faith is quite literally impossible. You take so many things on faith that to name even a few of them would be superfluous. In fact, we take everything on faith. We simply have no other option.
The very concept of "fact" is in reality farcical. How is fact defined?
1. something known to exist or to have happened
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened.
Looking at these definitions, one may well laugh to think how people have put the concept of "facts" up on such a lofty pedestal. A quick glance at a dictionary will tell us that "facts" are nothing more than things experienced.
Christians "know" god exists. many have also had "experiences" of god, and certainly they all "say and suppose" god exists. This quite clearly means that god's existance is a "fact". Does this satisfy you?
the same definitions will soon show that bigfoot, extraterrestrials etc are also "facts", that is, things experienced, supposed or believed to be true.
Consider this image:
Two groups of scientists study a single folio of data. Both come to different conclusions. One group says, look, we have examined it, and it is most certainly a vase because A and B and C.
And the other group says, no, WE have examined it and it is most certainly two faces because A and B and C!
And as if this wasn't bad enough, Then BOTH groups go and publish their findings, and now two armchair philosophers at there computer desks continue the same fruitless argument by posting in turn studies published by them only to be countered by studies published by him
And of course, neither group has ever done the studies themselves, and so in the end it is nothing more than a matter of faith.
Get comfortable with faith. It is not a dirty word. It is an inescapable reality for you, me and everyone.
(I for one will no longer attempt to include referances to studies or articles ive read, realizing it is obviously impossible for me to gaurantee any of their authenticity. )
But more to the point, i am interested to see how humanity will continue to adapt itself to life after yet another security blanket (science and fact) is ripped away, and we are confronted once more with the mystery.
People dont discover Facts. People Create facts.
"what the thinker thinks, the prover proves"
to quote a quote.
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
Edited by Moonshoe (10/30/06 10:22 PM)
|
AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,180
Loc: Solar Circuit
|
 Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6229145 - 10/30/06 10:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Great post, Moonshoe!
Quote:
Two groups of scientists study a single folio of data. Both come to different conclusions. One group says, look, we have examined it, and it is most certainly a vase because A and B and C.
And the other group says, no, WE have examined it and it is most certainly two faces because A and B and C!
And then a third group of ordinary wise wo/men enter the room, take a look at the argument and say,
"Noone can ever deny others the right to ignore the supersensible, but there is never any legitimate reason for people to declare themselves authorities, not only on what they themselves are capable of knowing, but also on what they suppose cannot be known by any other human being."
"Duality is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political, or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as "enlightenment," "the nature of the mind," and so on, until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence."
Taken with a sprinkle of faith of course. 
  
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6229162 - 10/30/06 10:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
There is some wonderful (IMO) posting and discussion going on here these days. 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
FungusMan
I81U812
Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 3,112
Loc: Everywhere
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6229770 - 10/31/06 04:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
To prove that a "god" existed would be the demise of man. Instead of looking at the face of the subject at hand as "one sided", would it not be easier to assume science explains the how, while philosophy and religious beliefs explain the why? While not an atheist myself, I would concur that atheism is a harder path to follow because it is a path of pure acceptance.
|
Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6230311 - 10/31/06 09:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Using a telephone requires faith? 
The fact that we do not understand the science behind things which are materially evident does not mean that we are exercising faith when we interact with them.
Faith: (pertinent definition) Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
Why do I believe that clouds are formed from hydrogen gas, dirt, etc...? Because I've seen clouds of hydrogen gas formed in a laboratory, because this explanation is the most simple and elegant, because it makes sense.
Why do I disbelieve in a big all-powerful guy in the sky? Because I've never seen nor experienced any evidence of his existence, because this explanation for existence is the least sensible, and because it sounds like a story children would make up to allay their fears and explain the "mysteries" of a confusing world.
Do I need to exercise faith in order to type this post on my computer? I have no direct experience with creating computer chips, so I must be faithful in order to utilize the evident technology sitting under my desk. 
|
MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6230713 - 10/31/06 11:28 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I'll agree with you that life without faith is impossible. Eventually, every system of thought boils down to an assumption or multiple assumptions. Sciences makes the assumptions that a.) an objective, external reality exists, b.) this reality can be experienced through our senses, c.) reality is consistent and does not contradict itself, and d.) reality can be described using symbols. To me, these assumptions don't seem like much of a leap. The sheer amount of information that has been collected through observation and experiment and the technology which is then developed from it seems astounding. No other system of understanding can even come close to rivaling the accomplishments of science. This is why I put my faith in the scientific method - it works.
Because of the incredible density of information at our fingertips, it takes no effort at all to dig up a thousand sources "proving" a certain point, and a thousand sources "debunking it"
"Digging up" thousands of scientific studies which prove one specific point and thousands that disprove it is actually impossible. Nothing is ever "proven" in science. What you do have is competing hypothesis's explaining a single phenomenon, but this is hardly "thousands of sources proving a certain point, and a thousand of sources debunking it." Eventually, all hypothesis's are falsified except one or, more often, multiple hypothesis's that have resisted falsification are combined into one. (There is generally much more debunking than supporting.)
Two groups of scientists study a single folio of data. Both come to different conclusions. One group says, look, we have examined it, and it is most certainly a vase because A and B and C.
And the other group says, no, WE have examined it and it is most certainly two faces because A and B and C!
Although this is a good example of the ever popular pseudoscience, that is not how the Scientific Method works and clearly violates operationalism. The scientists would say, "There appears to be a white object in the center of this picture which is surrounded by black."
I for one will no longer attempt to include referances to studies or articles ive read, realizing it is obviously impossible for me to gaurantee any of their authenticity.
All you need to do is cite sources that are published and peer-reviewed.
Edited by MushmanTheManic (10/31/06 11:30 AM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Really great post.
You've "blinded me with Science" and your dazzling debate style. 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
 Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,741
Last seen: 7 days, 23 minutes
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6230926 - 10/31/06 12:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Has anyone here ever read Kuhn?
--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Lion]
#6230943 - 10/31/06 12:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
No.
King kuhn or Gingus kuhn?
Tell me now, who is this emperior kuhn and what does he say? 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,741
Last seen: 7 days, 23 minutes
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6230985 - 10/31/06 12:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The process of scientific enquiry is dialectic in a Hegelian sense: new paradigms are not wrought through the scientific method as we've come to understand it. Rather, a sudden revelation comes to one person or a group of people, which is at first met with disdain and skepticism, but gradually comes to a synthesis with the old paradigm, forging a new one. Kuhn's book essentially plots the course of scientific paradigm shifts throughout Western history with this model as his framework. The conclusion is that the process we've come to think of as governing scientific advancement (reading one's predecessors, formulating new modifying theses, rationally observing, writing peer-reviewed studies) is essentially a sham; the real process is much stranger - a conglomeration of cultural, religious and political forces acting on a sudden momentous shift in perspective - and in many cases irrational.
--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Lion]
#6231002 - 10/31/06 12:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Interesting. I'm sure I will have to wait for the movie. I'm not too good at reading that sort of thing. I have oldtimers syndrome.
Veritas have you read this?
She's still young and spry.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/31/06 12:51 PM)
|
Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Veritas]
#6231551 - 10/31/06 03:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
"The fact that we do not understand the science behind things which are materially evident does not mean that we are exercising faith when we interact with them"
you misunderstand me. Im not saying it requires faith to USE technology, im saying it requires faith to believe your understanding of how anything works is "true", unless you have personally performed every level of physical scientific investigation required to "know" how it works. Because it is impossible to do this in even a small portion of cases, we end up accepting nearly everything we believe on faith. We accept the answers we have been given, because, like you say, they make sense to us, they work in the situations we need them to work, or because we trust the person who told us these answers.
Nothing wrong with that of course, thats my whole point. We all end up resorting to faith because knowledge of everything is obviously impossible.
You give me perfectly good reasons why you disbelieve in god. You havent experienced him, and he doesnt make sense to you conceptually.
Thats fine. I Believe in god for equally good reasons. I have experience of him, and he makes sense to me conceptually. My reasons do not "make" him real anymore than your reasons "make" him unreal. We both have faith, and we both have reasons for faith.
My point is simply that no one ever has certainty. And so faith is nescessary, one way or the other.
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6232264 - 10/31/06 05:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
So. You're not saying science is invalid. Right? You are not saying that your beliefs are truth. Right? You are saying we just choose to believe anything we believe by faith.Right?
This does not jibe with some of your other posts you know that. Right? Are you changing your stance here?
And of course your title is incorrect as I was born without my faith and every ant and beetle. Right?
Faith and belief seem to be different things here. Faith has no evidence, it's belief without any evidence. But things like Gnosis are not without evidence, the direct experience is evidence and so you do not need faith to believe.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (10/31/06 05:54 PM)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6232280 - 10/31/06 05:51 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah homie faith is belief not based on proof. We might not be aware of the proof of everything that we know, or the nature of all of the systems and processes around us, but its still there, and it is still possible for us to access it.
--------------------
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
|
Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6235026 - 11/01/06 01:04 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
"So. You're not saying science is invalid."
Not at all. i think science is one of many functional worldview systems, and like all worldview systems, it has some benefits and some limitations.
" You are not saying that your beliefs are truth. "
Im not entirely sure if i believe in "truth" as an absolute anymore. So i could answer that question with equal honesty by saying, no i dont think my beliefs are truth OR Yes, i think my beliefs are true for me.
"You are saying we just choose to believe anything we believe by faith."
Not exactly. I think we always have reasons to beleive what we believe, but realizing that other people have reasons for believing the opposite thing, it seems apparent that the underlying factor is indeed still belief and looking at the human species it seems evident that people are able to affix belief to almost any concept, depending on their social-cultural upbringing.
"This does not jibe with some of your other posts you know that. Are you changing your stance here?"
Im not entirely sure what you mean. I suppose you are refering to my frequently stated belief in God? I dont really see a contradiction. I have accepted a theistic worldview because I find it practical, uplifting, inspiring, and because it is the worldview that best contains and explains certain aspects of my subjective life experience, such as my emotional/gnostic experiences of divinity. This does NOT mean that i think my worldview is the only functional or justifiable one, nor that it is right for everyone.
"And of course your title is incorrect as I was born without my faith and every ant and beetle."
You could say that my title is Incorrect, or you could argue that you are interpreting it too literally. What i was trying to convey is that for adult humans, it will always be nescessary to accept things on faith because it is not possible to have enough objective experience to validate every belief you hold.
"Faith and belief seem to be different things here. Faith has no evidence, it's belief without any evidence."
That may be so, i didnt check the dictionary on this one. But i am refering to faith in the sense of going beyond what we know to what we believe. So although we may have a certain amount of evidence to support our belief, i feel we never have enough evidence that we dont need faith. Even considering that our sensory organs filter out or modify almost everything we experience, it even takes faith to believe that what you see is even a remote approximation of underlying reality.
"But things like Gnosis are not without evidence, the direct experience is evidence and so you do not need faith to believe"
well, i had an experience of Gnosis which i described in the thread the jesus cognition. This experience was very powerful and very direct. However, that does not mean that i couldn't have explained it away with myriad explanations ranging from sleep deprivation to self hypnosis to schizophrenia. All of these explanations could explain the experience i had. But i personally believe and have faith that my experience was in fact a contact with some kind of overarching divinity.
" We might not be aware of the proof of everything that we know, or the nature of all of the systems and processes around us, but its still there, and it is still possible for us to access it. "
perhaps. But really what you are saying is that you have been told that the "proof" is there, and you believe the person who told you that. Thus your faith in that persons authenticity is sufficient for you to go on about your life not seeking physical validation of what you believe. So although you COULD go out and find that proof, you haven't, because you are satisfied with your faith. And this is my point.
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6235126 - 11/01/06 01:33 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
i feel we never have enough evidence that we dont need faith.
Maybe this is so in the ultimate sense. I would then say that the less faith you need to believe something the better and closer you might be to some kind of truth which you can back by experience. 
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6236575 - 11/01/06 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
I would agree.
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
|
Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6237275 - 11/01/06 10:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Group hug!
--------------------
Everything I post is fiction.
|
Amethyst
Stranger
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 132
Last seen: 16 years, 3 days
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6237786 - 11/02/06 01:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Just a few days ago we rescued four 2 week old kittens in a rubbish dump. Now even tho they will never understand what "faith" means, they had faith in their wee hearts, faith that nature will keep em alive, and so they hung on for dear life. The tinny cutes pulled through, were granted a chance to see another day and to explore the beauty of this world.
The faith within our hearts will lead us to truth.
--------------------
"That's the story moving from the NO to the YES. All of life is like, no thankyou, no thankyou, no thankyou. Then ultimatey it's YES i give in, YES I accept, YES I embrace."
Edited by Amethyst (11/02/06 01:53 AM)
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#6237967 - 11/02/06 04:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
The nature of faith is to assume. I try to assume as little as possible.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#6238450 - 11/02/06 09:31 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Because you know what that does.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
cloudtop
Stranger
Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 66
Loc: bespin
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Amethyst]
#6238561 - 11/02/06 10:33 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Amethyst said:
Just a few days ago we rescued four 2 week old kittens in a rubbish dump. Now even tho they will never understand what "faith" means, they had faith in their wee hearts, faith that nature will keep em alive, and so they hung on for dear life. The tinny cutes pulled through, were granted a chance to see another day and to explore the beauty of this world.
The faith within our hearts will lead us to truth.
Do you ever find it odd to attribute your own values and cognitive abilities to other creatures for which you (presumably) have very little evidence of similar cognitive development?
--------------------
peacefromabovecloudtop
|
Amethyst
Stranger
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 132
Last seen: 16 years, 3 days
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: cloudtop]
#6241428 - 11/02/06 09:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cloudtop said:
Do you ever find it odd to attribute your own values and cognitive abilities to other creatures for which you (presumably) have very little evidence of similar cognitive development?
Odd yes if you assumed my point had to do with faith being a cognitive construct of the mind, because I can not comprehend what was going through their minds, if much at all.
My emphasis was on the heart and the subconscious (unconscious maybe) connection that we form with our parents and mother nature at birth, we FULLY put our faith in everything around us, due to our desperate helplessness. If the Kitty's have little intelligence to understand faith, then what did they have that made em survive? You could call it instinct, or just straight out luck...I prefer to believe it was a trust that came from deep within.
--------------------
"That's the story moving from the NO to the YES. All of life is like, no thankyou, no thankyou, no thankyou. Then ultimatey it's YES i give in, YES I accept, YES I embrace."
|
Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Amethyst]
#6241462 - 11/02/06 09:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
what did they have that made em survive?
Why does their survival have to go beyond their physical capabilities? If they had been found a day or two later, they would have been dead. It is not instinct which keeps a helpless animal alive...instinct would help them hunt for food when they were a little older, or make them wary of larger predators. Without food and water, exposed to the elements, their death was just a matter of time.
There is no need to add faith (or the animal equivalent) to this equation.
|
Amethyst
Stranger
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 132
Last seen: 16 years, 3 days
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Veritas]
#6241679 - 11/02/06 10:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Veritas said:
Why does their survival have to go beyond their physical capabilities?
Because they didn't have any physical capabilities to survive on their "own", so help was needed beyond that....I agree instinct had no role here, and simple cause and effect would of lead to death. Tho what I was trying to get at it, is even these little unaware beings required something within themselves to keep their conscious alive, other than their body's alone. Faith that their mum would come back to feed em, and even a deeper force within them, that gave meaning to why they should even bother with this harsh reality in the first place.
--------------------
"That's the story moving from the NO to the YES. All of life is like, no thankyou, no thankyou, no thankyou. Then ultimatey it's YES i give in, YES I accept, YES I embrace."
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Amethyst]
#6241719 - 11/02/06 10:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Sounds a little anthropomorphic.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Amethyst
Stranger
Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 132
Last seen: 16 years, 3 days
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6241829 - 11/02/06 11:00 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
hehe well we were once helpless little beings too, something has got us this far! 
--------------------
"That's the story moving from the NO to the YES. All of life is like, no thankyou, no thankyou, no thankyou. Then ultimatey it's YES i give in, YES I accept, YES I embrace."
|
Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Amethyst]
#6242855 - 11/03/06 09:32 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
even these little unaware beings required something within themselves to keep their conscious alive, other than their body's alone. Faith that their mum would come back to feed em, and even a deeper force within them, that gave meaning to why they should even bother with this harsh reality in the first place.
You state this as if it is fact. Why do they need something other than their physical capacity to survive? Why do you assume that they survived despite having no physical ability to survive? This does not make sense. They lived because they could physically survive the conditions they were in.
While meaning certainly makes life more interesting, it is not necessarily intrinsic, and is more likely a complete invention of our human cognition. What makes you believe that 2-week-old kittens would live because they saw meaning in life, and die if they did not?
Quote:
we were once helpless little beings too, something has got us this far!
Yes, when I was born, my mother cleaned, cuddled & nursed me. She continued to care for my physical needs until I was able to take over caring for myself. If she had not done for me when I was helpless, and no one else had stepped in to take her place, I would not have survived. (No matter how much/little faith I might have had.)
I continue to survive now because I work to feed, clothe & shelter myself. If I stopped doing this, I would not survive for long. (And not due to my lack of faith.)
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Veritas]
#6244528 - 11/03/06 05:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Thinking critically.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,679
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Icelander]
#6244580 - 11/03/06 06:06 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Yes...Ass + You + Me My drill sergeant in basic training told me this before I heard it anywhere.
--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Kerbouchard
Stranger
Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 9,823
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: fireworks_god]
#6244638 - 11/03/06 06:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
It's a little different when you consider a babies mind( or animals, or rocks) might not even be CAPABLE of having faith.
Thus,. like a child or newborn animal, there is no faith in it. Only the faith the caregiver provides.
Once a baby matures enough to know what faith is( even if they can't place a name top the concept) they become their own faith keepers.
People can care for, and have faith for you all your life... but if you don't establish faith early on in life, it may be a more difficult road that need be.
I am living testament that faith can move mountains, and that the power of God is a real entity.
--------------------
"War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Decides Who's Left."
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Kerbouchard]
#6247082 - 11/04/06 12:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
No one could know. But I think that each living being is born with that what we call 'faith'.
Maybe it is only a neurological function in our brains.
It is only a little 'stronger' than 'assumption' and quite similar to 'believe' or even 'trust', as I see this.
One faith may replace another.
Edited by BlueCoyote (11/04/06 12:56 PM)
|
Felinor
PhilosophicalDreamer
Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 680
Loc: Down Town China Town
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#8195139 - 03/26/08 02:50 AM (15 years, 6 hours ago) |
|
|
Do animals have faith? Do plants? Do even us humans truly have faith? Does this require having faith in what faith is?
--------------------
The world itself is the will to power - and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power - and nothing else! ~Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#8195724 - 03/26/08 09:02 AM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
This is another one of my posts, it has to do with belief, or faith, believe they are about the same
Quote:
Mr_Spliff said:
Hell yeah. Loved reading those lyrics.
I think theres a reason they are called Magic Mushrooms, watch harry potter on shrooms. WOW. Shrooms are like a catalyst, rocketing us into our home. Like befor the law of man was the law of magic, but since belief concures all, the laws of man over rided the old laws. And madern materialism was born, and the elves and wizards and hobits all had to leave on a big boat to a "far" away land.
I once read that as scientists are researching in new cutting edge areas of science, thier intentions actually affect the outcome. Meaning thier deep seated feeling desires and beliefes are molding the "Laws" of physics. Like how memory is illusory and cannot be claimed. Laws are not Laws except by the law of belief, (faith, intention what have you)
I think there are others out there. Practicing, developing, and awakening thier own faverit forms of "concious spooky mamipulation at a distance" in like words of Einstein.
The Seat of conciousness lies in the quantum or planck scale of things, so far out when I feel it, the truth of it all, I just laugh in this insanity i am covered in. The truth is unspeakable, sizeless, spacless, timeless, and yet look around. We are attached to this world, this picture image which is a part of God except it has become insane with these new Laws and has started to feed off fear, but we are bringers if love, infinity, from the other side.
|
allisthesame
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 365
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#8196899 - 03/26/08 02:47 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Eh... think for yourself... question authority and respect it if you will... and draw your own conclusions on a conscious level... then sleep and repeat as necessary.
--------------------
Guess what?; You...
A spot of Sunshine: We are energy,... matter is energy that simply has been reduced to a crawl and condensed together to form something.
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: allisthesame]
#8196945 - 03/26/08 02:58 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
When science proves spirituality which it is already doing (oneness/interconnectedness) then the people who dislike this oneness consciousness so much will probably turn on science.
Humans will be casually astrally traveling and the "proovers" will still disbelieve.
Cynicism is cynicism, it is a trap of doubt, those that doubt will always doubt. Theyre minds are trapped in an faith of cyniscism & doubt, not truth seeking, but faith in doubt, he who seeks truth & has faith in the truth revealing itself finds it, every single time.
He who seeks doubt, finds doubt, because there will always be room for doubt!
If miracles are performed before theyre eyes, they are simply magic tricks.
The thief who meets god, sees only his pockets.
To quote a quote.
--------------------
|
Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Chronic7]
#8197011 - 03/26/08 03:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
"Cynicism is cynicism, it is a trap of doubt, those that doubt will always doubt. Theyre minds are trapped in an faith of cyniscism & doubt, not truth seeking, but faith in doubt, he who seeks truth & has faith in the truth revealing itself finds it, every single time."
Beutifull use of the english language. IMO people are not trapped forever, only till they experience something else. Thats what psychedelics are for, imo. Or long grueling Koans, and swift slapps up the side of the head.
Once the person stops IDing with there ego they can see that there view of the world is a framework, that can be molded. A paradigm I guess. And that their no self gets filtered threw this framework and then you get what you get, be it doubt, love of truth, orwhat ever. This is why christians wear that braclet WWJD, to align their framework with what their framework tells them jesus is like, so as to make their framework more like jesus (thier framework of jesus) so as you can see its all really stupid unless you get in touch with your no-self.
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Mr_Spliff]
#8197043 - 03/26/08 03:26 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Yes it was a bit of a sweeping statement to say they will always doubt, we're all on the same path...all doubts become clear eventually, although some do deny truth prooved, although what is proof anyway?
Can anything be prooved beyond a shadow of a doubt when quantum mechanics has already shattered our perception of reality?
--------------------
|
backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Chronic7]
#8197076 - 03/26/08 03:33 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
'Can anything be prooved beyond a shadow of a doubt when quantum mechanics has already shattered our perception of reality?'
Might you expand on this statement??
--------------------
|
Mr_Spliff
Dreamer
Registered: 12/01/05
Posts: 224
Loc: Undesclosed Location (its...
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Chronic7]
#8197098 - 03/26/08 03:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Exactamundo, Fuck it, its all a picture image anyway. And its goal is to make us believe its real, so go figure, itll go to anylength to keep someone to believe it. I sometimes think, It, can hop into people like in the matrix.
I went a year with no triping, on my first trip back to psychedelia, I wound up throwing my grow operation in the dumster. I thought God was filling my glass and if god filled my glass I would dissapear in a twinkling, and my family would be left looking for me, So I figured the shrooms were evil and that I should not give them to my friends, because this world was this world, worldly, the way it should be, not godly. I was haveing muscle convulsion and gritting my teeth and stomping around my house like a mad man, in this angered stat. 200 years ago I would have been said to be possessed, wether by the shrooms or IT (the worldly, or satan maybe) is up to each his own. I figured why would IT want me, a part of IT, going around freeing people.
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
|
If our 3d/4d view of reality has already been shattered by multiple dimensions/quantum mechanics, then wont our view of reality constantly keep being shattered by the randomness that quantum mechanics implies.
Im not a scientist so don't crucify me if ive taken this wrong.
It seems to me that nothing we perceive can be real, as whatever we perceive changes, so our view of reality will always be shattered, unless we stay with what probably never will be viewed by science, god, which is the ultimate reality, the only reality, this universe is an illusion as it changes, its impermanent. the ultimate reality, is ultimate, it does not change.
Science wants to have concept of ultimate reality, yet realisation of god requires non-concept, so far, concepts take you so far, then turn on themself, the mind gives up, only then god is realised. In my experience, concepts have helped but they only take you so far...
Concepts depend on discrimination/duality so the only concept that can take you to god is the discrimination between the real (unchanging) and the changing (the universe).
I really dislike this word god as no word can be god. Lets just say ultimate reality.
This ultimate reality people have felt and will always feel when they strip away the universe/changing from theyre perception, but can this be prooved through anything other than experience of being god?
Can experience be prooved?
Can an experience be scientifically measured?
--------------------
|
appleorange
Rainbow Technician
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Chronic7]
#8197247 - 03/26/08 04:11 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
It would take an act of faith to believe your post moonshoe
Faith is all we have, our "facts" just strengthen faith, but they can never prove it.
|
backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: appleorange]
#8197879 - 03/26/08 06:07 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
'It seems to me that nothing we perceive can be real...'
Okay.
So easy with your knowing.
Lest I pop out of your screen and give you a shot of Haldol myself.
--------------------
|
allisthesame
Stranger
Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 365
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
|
|
Do any of you have the will to become a martyr for your ego?
--------------------
Guess what?; You...
A spot of Sunshine: We are energy,... matter is energy that simply has been reduced to a crawl and condensed together to form something.
|
Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
|
Re: Life without Faith is impossible [Re: Moonshoe]
#8198831 - 03/26/08 09:10 PM (14 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, life without faith is impossible but not the examples you used. The scientific/technological examples you used don't constitute as faith. Faith involves belief in something lacking logical proof or material evidence, both of which your examples exhibit.
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order 
Buy Bali Kratom Powder 
Cultivation Supplies 
Bulk Cannabis Seeds 
Buy Kratom Extract
Edit 
Reply 
1 2 3 4 all )
Phluck
tekramrepus
Ulysees
Peaceful_Nomad
GoBlue!
Swami
World Spirit
spud