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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5732742 - 06/10/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe I'm just high, but I'm not sure how all of that relates back to the question of which came first. Would you elaborate to enlighten me, please?

As for the third argument, it's saying that the perceiving subject (which you say to be the one true reality) cannot arise simultaneously with the perceived object. If they did arise simultaneously, then they would be inherently existent and completely indepedent of each other, since they could not have any relationship such as being cause or effect. However, the perceived objective world causes the perceiving subject (one must arise from the objective world in order to perceive it[self]) to arise, so since they do indeed depend on each other, neither can be Real.

Since the perceiving subject and the perceived object cannot arise sequentially or simultaneously, neither are Real.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5733564 - 06/10/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

what you are saying
and the conclusions you are drawing
makes no sense

if you cannot see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe already, by what i've already said- you never will.

like the last sentence you wrote, it's absurd.
i would need some sort of an example involving a case of a subject and perceived object, and explaining how its "not real"?

rehashing old jargon gets nowhere
the concept of nihilism died and dropped of the face of the planet back in the 1980's.
lol, haven't you seen I heart huckabees yet?
lol

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5733698 - 06/10/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
what you are saying
and the conclusions you are drawing
makes no sense




One can state that your conclusions make no sense. If you cannot demonstrate to us why they do not, then your claim that they make no sense if baseless, and might as well not be stated at all.

Quote:


if you cannot see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe already, by what i've already said- you never will.




Your way is The Way? :lol:

Quote:


the concept of nihilism died and dropped of the face of the planet back in the 1980's.




Riiight. :rolleyes: Do you even know what you are talking about?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5733743 - 06/10/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

what you are saying
and the conclusions you are drawing
makes no sense


Au contraire, it's a perfectly logical argument. Tell me what part you don't understand and I can elaborate.

if you cannot see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe already, by what i've already said- you never will.

Fine then!  :razz: Maybe I don't want to see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe! So there! :grin: :wink:

By the way, do you see/know the underlying innermost machinations of the universe?

i would need some sort of an example involving a case of a subject and perceived object, and explaining how its "not real"?

Okay, here's a nice quote that gives an example.

Quote:

Snap your fingers and then analyze by asking, "What comes first, the finger snap or the ear consciousness perceiving it?" we have to analyze based on our own experience, so how did they happen? Did the finger snap come first? Or did the ear consciousness perceiving the finger snap come first? Or did the finger snap and the ear consciousness perceiving it occur at the same time?

The snap you perceived could not have come before the consciousness that perceived it, or else there would have been a perceived object without any perceiver of that object. Similarly, the consciousness that perceived the finger snap could not have come first because then it would have preceded the finger snap that it perceived. Finally, the consciousness perceiving the finger snap and the finger snap could not have truly occurred simultaneously, because if they did, they would have been unrelated entities - the finger snap would not have been the cause of the arising of the consciousness that perceived it. Thus, they did not exist sequentially, they did not exist simultaneously, and there is no other possibility. Your finger snap and the consciousness that perceived it, therefore, were dependently arisen mere appearances that did not truly exist.




the concept of nihilism died and dropped of the face of the planet back in the 1980's.

Relevence?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineEvan_1107
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5736765 - 06/11/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Objective reality and subjective reality are both the same as they are only images in the mind. The dual related perception of Right or Wrong does not exist in this perception. When you are able to merge the two polar pairs, that is when you become free and a new perspective on life is given. When you learn to be able to step outside your body and observe your life from a 3rd person view, whenever you like, this enables you to choose the emotions you want to and be free of all emotional attachments that makes you feel trapped. By stepping outside yourself and constantly acting from your future-self view then you are able to create a reality that you desire. There is no more fear, there is no more hatred, there is no instinctively reaction to situations you do not wish too. Yes that is what the SSUN Project teaches you to do.

A net of Jewels 1996 Ramesh says

"Belief, any belief, is based on the sense of insecurity. Only when all belief is given up are you free to know yourself. In self discovery what you find is the Truth- that Truth which is total, selfevident and which needs no outside support of justification."

Only the absolute is sacred. What I meant was, that which is sacred, is from beyond this world, is absolute. There is no 0% or 100% in our reality, only 0.0000...1% and 99.99999...%. We have conceived so much of our mathematics in terms of the absolute but really entire new realms of mathematics could be opened up based on this more accurate way of perceiving things. Things can gravitate to become an extremely biased ratio (hence the 0.0000...1% and 99.99999...%), but it is only by recognizing this and dwelling on the journey towards the absolute, and not putting what we observed up on a pedastal as having already reached this realm of the absolute, that we may transcend the border (as already recognized in the Law of Limits in Calculus) and reach the absolute INDIRECTLY.

The old perspective and reality of viewing things seems to see everything in terms of absolute, ie. "this is this, that is that, etc.". And for the most part, this is fine, since this was indeed 99.9...% this and that was 99.9...% that, but what's important to realize is how little anything is really and truly 100% it. Think about it, take it down to the atomic scale, we really need to base our thinking models off of this most fundamental truth! It will change everything!

Why? Because conflict does not come from the absolute or near-absolute, the absolute is sacred, and the near-absolute is the foundation of our reality. It comes from the more ambiguous and subjective matter in our reality, and not acknowledging it as such. By doing so, we don't have to obligate our minds to categorize everything, it can, when given sufficient evidence, but when not given sufficient evidence, the mind should be free to leave said interpretation of stimuli in a state of flux for as long as necessary, and to treat it as such.

Anyways, They key concept for this adjustment is that we no longer see things as being "good" or "bad", but as in a state of flux between those poles, or any other poles, until really, honestly and truly, sufficient evidence is given to allow the sight of said thing to float into a status of near-absolution, and no sooner.

There can be no conflict with this type of thinking, as thus, nothing at all, at all at all, is seen as "good", or "bad", or even anything else. It either is what it is, or has the potential to be two or more things, or any combination of them, in any ratio.

The issue really at hand here is our definition of "purity". What on this world is truly 100% pure? Practically nothing is! Almost everything is at least a little impure if analyzed to a deep enough degree, and contains however infinitessimally small a percentage of something else to validate my claim.

Why is this important? Because EVERYTHING can be perceived in these terms! Take opinions - what opinions do you hold that you believe in the whole 100%? Or beliefs - is there anything you believe in so strongly you would say you are 100% sure about it?

Soon one can realize that there are indeed things that are absolute, much fewer things than things that are non-absolute, and the difference between them is that those which are absolute come from the realm of the sacred - our instincts, the elements, etc. EVERYTHING ELSE is so much more subjective than we ever realized!

As you can see, the potential barrier line between being RIGHT and Wrong. You see both observers have the same consciousness and awareness. If one person observes a red object then the other person also observes a red object. That is because the consciousness collapses the wave function, thus all consciousness is universal.

So in other words the concept of objective reality rests on the assumption that there exist observers who are external to me, and who can confirm my own observations. Ever since we have been young we grew up without questioning this concept. Hmm you may begin to make sense of this if you stop to consider that, not only is objective reality supposed to be external and independent of your mind, but so also the “external” observer who you depend to confirm you own observations of objective reality.

For example, the observer who is external to you is not in fact independent of your mind at all but is part of your subjective reality. Ie image in your mind. You need to understand reality is what is, without conceptualisation. Therefore objective reality is only a concept and cannot be proved. Even though it is use for communication, for health and for survival, it does not represent reality and therefore it will bring suffering if it is taken to be real.

The only reason we suffer is because it defines external observers as being objects that are external to me, so logically I am external to them. Thus it defines me as being part of their objective reality which means that I am separate from them. As long as you identify with a separate objective you, then you will unable to realise your true nature and suffer.

Do you see that objective reality(observed by another) is EXACTLY the same as subjective reality (observed in your head) since all external observers are only images in your mind?

Objective reality becomes nothing but an appearance or image in your mind, just as subjective reality. The world in your mind is the only world that you can perceive directly. All bodies and other objects in this world are nothing but images in your mind.

This is where it gets interesting, the ego is only an image in your mind of yourself and how you perceive yourself. So the ego is subjective. The ego is born because of the concept of space makes you feel like you are separate!

Everything you feel isn't yours at all. All your feelings are based around fear and desire.

YOU ARE AS MUCH AS GOD IS, AS GOD IS HIMSELF!

Remember whatever your aware of, cannot be you. Because you are what is aware!

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: Evan_1107]
    #5737347 - 06/11/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Step one-
how much do you usually take when you trip?
like a heavy dose.
can you trip alone right?
if you were to meet with god, would you like to do that in your bedroom or house, or outside?
you pick.
then we can move on to step2.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737356 - 06/11/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sorry, but a psychadelic experience is not going to substantiate the existance of any "god".

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737358 - 06/11/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

o so now you're calling me a liar?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737370 - 06/11/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:

We discuss ideas here, my friend, not those who are presenting them. Whether or not you are a liar is no issue here.

For example, the appropriate thing to do would be to explain exactly how a psychadelic experience could provide substantiation for God, and then we would involve ourselves with discourse on the matter, exchanging ideas and viewpoints. This works much more effectively, and is beneficial for all involved, than simply making accusations and resorting to tatics that lower it to a personal level.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737416 - 06/11/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

true.
just ask the question.
don't make up lies.

if you think a psychadelic experience wont provide proof of god
have you got some evidence against the fact that it could be possible?

am i going to waste my time offering proof of god to someone who really doesn't care at all about the truth, but rather just debating endlessly for fun.


there are many many many reasons why psychadelics are directly linked to proof of god.
and i'll name them for you.

the fact that you visit shroomery, yet you say psychadelic experience is not going to substantiate any existence of "god"
that is so repugnant
i dont even know where to begin

first of all, the mushroom itself, if you examine its life cycle, it is a symbolic representation of the entire universe.
the way the dimensions spring forth from the big bang.
beginning with the point, the spore, that sends out a ray,
eventually di-karyotic mycilium, and pins, to open caps with spores again.
lol
basically
you eat some shrooms
and sit by the tv
and computer maybe and run these programs of ideas through your head
and you will seizure
and witness an impossible miracle
that will prove to you without a doubt that a god is operating behind all things, and intimately connected to you

this will scare you and you will want for forget about it

that is why earlier in this thread i ask you
how many miracles do you need?
1 or 2 or 3?
would it ever be enough?
for some people the answer is no-
they are blind to god and miracles all the time.
even the mother of christ had her doubts about her son, saying "he is beside himself". despite the fact than an angel told her he was the son god. people forget. People ignore.

or it could be that you're assuming that this "god box" that i speak of, is something brand new, that i've never used before, or had success with. if you need to talk to someone who has entered in and come back out with proof of god, i could hook you up somehow-
but is that really gonna make you believe or care?

Edited by Telepylus (06/11/06 10:16 AM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737476 - 06/11/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
don't make up lies.




I didn't lie. :lol:

Quote:


if you think a psychadelic experience wont provide proof of god
have you got some evidence against the fact that it could be possible?




Certainly. Any experience that one has is not any form of validation of the existance of some concept that one forms in relation to the experience. A moment of increased awareness that makes you exclaim "I know God! God is real!" isn't actually any form of basis that "god" exists. Sorry.

Quote:


am i going to waste my time offering proof of god to someone who really doesn't care at all about the truth, but rather just debating endlessly for fun.




I don't know about that, but it will likely be a waste of time offering proof of God in general, as it isn't something that can be done. :smirk:

Quote:


the fact that you visit shroomery, yet you say psychadelic experience is not going to substantiate any existence of "god"
that is so repugnant
i dont even know where to begin




Yeah, whatever dude. :rolleyes:


Quote:


first of all, the mushroom itself, if you examine its life cycle, it is a symbolic representation of the entire universe.
the way the dimensions spring forth from the big bang.
beginning with the point, the spore, that sends out a ray,
eventually di-karyotic mycilium, and pins, to open caps with spores again.
lol




I see....

Quote:


basically
you eat some shrooms
and sit by the tv
and computer maybe and run these programs of ideas through your head
and you will seizure
and witness an impossible miracle
that will prove to you without a doubt that a god is operating behind all things, and intimately connected to you




Sounds like a feeling while altered on a substance, and not any sort of "proof" of the existance of such God.

I'm sorry, but you haven't in any way substantiated a proof in God, or how psychadelics offer a proof in God. The fact that feelings are generated by ourselves and that our experience lies contingent upon ourselves demonstrates that our experience simply cannot exist as substantation to the existance of some aspect of reality.

Its all in your mind, my friend.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737503 - 06/11/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You've reminded me of a Fiona Apple song:

"He said 'it's all in your head'
and I said 'so's everything'
but he didn't get it.

I thought he was a man
but he was just a little boy."

:grin:

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737679 - 06/11/06 11:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Any experience that one has is not any form of validation of the existance of some concept that one forms in relation to the experience. A moment of increased awareness that makes you exclaim "I know God! God is real!" isn't actually any form of basis that "god" exists.

By extension, I'm curious about your thoughts on other 'dimensional' sentient beings. For instance, with DMT one often finds oneself in another realm that seems to be inhabited by autonomous elves. These beings have been described by a seemingly significant portion of the population that has taken DMT.

To me this indicates the definite possibility that there are other sentient beings and we can perceive them when the necessary causes and conditions arise.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5737698 - 06/11/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Do you know what an archetype is?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTelepylus
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Posts: 996
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737734 - 06/11/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you haven't even bothered to read the thread, so this has become pointless.

the key word here is Miracle.

it's so ridiculous that you use christ as an avatar yet say that
proof of god cannot be done.

you've proven you have no ideas of your own, you don't think for yourself, and you're just regurgitating some atheist attitude with no other intention but to be obnoxious, you don't listen.

i have all sorts of evidence and proof of god to share
but it's really not at the top of my priority list right now
because i get the strong feeling that truly Nobody Cares
so...

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737736 - 06/11/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah.

Do you think we have an elfin archetype?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737760 - 06/11/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
you haven't even bothered to read the thread, so this has become pointless.

the key word here is Miracle.

it's so ridiculous that you use christ as an avatar yet say that
proof of god cannot be done.

you've proven you have no ideas of your own, you don't think for yourself, and you're just regurgitating some atheist attitude with no other intention but to be obnoxious, you don't listen.

i have all sorts of evidence and proof of god to share
but it's really not at the top of my priority list right now
because i get the strong feeling that truly Nobody Cares
so...




No disrespect, but what is this nonsense?

Have you read this thread, because FG certainly responded to various things you said, and that would be slightly difficult to do without reading...

you've proven you have no ideas of your own, you don't think for yourself, and you're just regurgitating some atheist attitude with no other intention but to be obnoxious, you don't listen.

:wtf:

i have all sorts of evidence and proof of god to share
but it's really not at the top of my priority list right now
because i get the strong feeling that truly Nobody Cares
so...


I've got proof of sentient spaghetti, but I'm not going to share it with you!

Come on man, if you feel you have proof that will convince people, then don't be selfish, what is it?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineEvan_1107
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Registered: 06/08/06
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5740164 - 06/11/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In altered states of consciousness, you are taking down the barrier of where the conscious and subconscious minds exists. To connect to God/universal consciousness/force or whatever you like to that is how to do it. Why do people pray.. Remote influencing is prayer on steroids.

It is all about connecting. Whether you believe it or not is not an issue. EveryONE can believe whatever they want to, and to them it is true.

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* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
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Bavet 6,996 68 02/06/03 10:46 AM
by Strumpling

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