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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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The difference between Faith and Blind Faith.
    #3850895 - 03/01/05 08:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

All too frequently I see individuals here being put down for what they've confessed to be faith-based beliefs.

The word faith is very easily misinterpretted. Faith is NOT believing in that which cannot be proven to you. THAT definition belongs to blind faith.

Faith is believing in that which HAS proven itself to you.

For example:

Blind faith is believing any one theory on how the universe began... because there's absolutely no way for you to know that. You weren't there... no one was. To believe that "this is absolutely how it happened"--whether in regards to the big boom (science fanatics, skeptics) or in regards to a creation theory (religious)--THAT is blind faith.

Faith, on the other hand... faith is believing that which HAS proven itself to you. And the most important kinds of faith (often overlooked by those seeking larger answers) are the ones that manifest themselves in your daily life.

Faith is knowing that when you stop consciously choosing to take breath, SOMETHING still makes you breathe.

Humans are prone to mental loads. We try to take on everything on our own. "I can do it!" we say, when we are children, looking to the future.

We try to remember everything. Gotta do this.. gotta remember that. Gotta remember this... it all compounds into this huge mental load that we don't even know we carry. Before we know it, our attitude has changed from "I can do it!" to "I am just barely hanging on by a thread here..."

Faith is surrendering this load. Faith is saying, "I give up. I just can't carry this anymore." and collapsing... letting the load fall to the ground.

What we find when we take this "leap of faith" (aka, taking a chance) is that we still live on, and things still work themselves out for you without you worrying about it. We find that the mental stress was the real culprit of our unhappiness in the first place... and we find we are all the more empowered now that we've released the burden.

With faith, we find great power, because we no longer have to stand on our own, trying to hold up this huge mental load. We must accept our own weakness... we must be humble and ready to admit that we cannot handle this on our own... it's too much.

And so, faith is ultimately surrender. It is surrender to what is, to the higher knowledge and ability that surrounds you. It is a release of any expectation that you know how things will work out. It is believing that your path will unfold before you, and that you need only keep watch for the road signs pointing the way.

You will not see a plan or a map. You will not know how your life will unfold. As you look back on your life, is it not true that the plans you laid out so carefully were often foiled by unexpected circumstances? Is it not also true that the best and most wondrous things that happened to you came as great surprises, in wild and unexpected glories?

Is it not this wild and unexpected nature that makes these great surprises so wonderful?

And is it not planning and trying to force your life along a path that you've personally decided upon that makes things difficult for you? The rigid framework of a pre-decided step-by-step path does not allow for the wild and unexpected. It only causes stress, as you create an internal disagreement with that which is.

Acceptance and surrender are the lessons of faith.

I ask that those of you who tend to put down "believers" recognize that you are stereotyping. You are making a HUGE and drastically unfair generalization.

Skeptics, realize that even amongst what you consider your own kind, there are many a believer. This does not make them any less of a skeptic, however. There is no cut and dry.. and there is no black and white dividing line. These two "groups" blend into eachother. The grey area is much more prominent than you'd like to acknowledge.

Take this into account when approaching individuals. Try to view them as an individual, and not a member of a pre-decided grouping that you defined. You owe it to them, for all the times that you've already pre-judged them.

Furthermore, people change. The person you associate with one alias may not be the same person the next time you are confronted with this same alias. Sure, they are the same lifeline... but people change so drastically in such short amounts of time, it's like a whole different person. So don't even judge someone by their history, or your past experiences with them. Experience who they are now, and what's happening NOW. Don't allow the past to dictate your present and future.

That's it. I'm done.


Edited by JacquesCousteau (03/01/05 08:48 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3851060 - 03/01/05 10:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with. His mind was created for his own thoughts, not yours or mine.




Henry S. Haskins

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineadeptMind
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MAIA]
    #3851134 - 03/01/05 10:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Dearest Jacques,

I thank you for your shared view on Faith.

I was wondering if you have considered the relation between the Faith you are talking about and Hope. By asking this I mean the relation between Faith that carries you in the moment and Faith in the future, Faith in what you hope for will happen in the future.

While the Faith you discussed is genuinely positive and should be embraced, the Faith in the future I see as problematic. I often sense that this Faith takes the focus of the present. You kinda give up your presence in the Moment, in order to trade it for a brighter future.

For instance, a young man sitting at home in his senior year of high school. He's having great troubles with parents and friends, but Faith keeps him up as he knows he's accepted to a University far away and he has Faith in that things will be better soon. Thus he pushes life away into an imaginary world of the future time, carried by Faith.

Although really happy for this boy that he sees a brighter future, I pity him for sacrificing the Moment, choosing to accept his current misery, for a future he has Faith in...

Please do not make the same mistake you pointed out; I'm not talking about blind faith, but the same Faith you described.

I see this as very problematic duelism of Faith and was happy when I read your comment, as it spelled out, things I have been trying to put together in my head for some time.


--------------------
'Og jeg vil ikke have en Student,
Som ligger og laeser om Natten,
Jeg vil have en Officier,
Som gaaer med Fjaer udi Natten'



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3851568 - 03/01/05 01:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

MAIA,

Great quote about ones mind being created for their own thoughts! Thanks for sharing that.

Adepted, that was neat how you pointed out the difference between hope faith and faith versus blind faith to add to JC's post. Good stuff!

I talked with JC about this before he posted and he was coming from a place of having faith in the good in the now and surrendering to that. There is a difference. You were talking about people surrendering to the good of the future in sacrifice of the now.

I think it was more about not giving in to the fear of the moments that overwhelm but rather letting go of them to surrender to the basic security of what supports your basic life in the now.

Think of all the things that happen in ones life where at the time it seems like the end of it, yet was it? No. You are still breathing.

Take the guy who fucks up on the job and thinks, my boss is going to kill me, its so over. Hope based faith would be the guy thinking about another job offer he'd gotten last week and then shifts into the brighter future of a new job with a different boss to cope with the pressure and fear he feels in the now.

I think the sort of faith JC was talking about would be for the guy to say to himself, "I've made mistakes before and my boss understood because he is a good and reasonable man and I am a good employee over all. Or to add, he could think, I have lost jobs before and the world didn't stop spinning and I was okay and still am and will be regardless of what happens with this one.

Its putting trust in that something that makes everything turn out okay even when it doesn't look like it will. It's putting trust in that something in yourself that seems to pull you through the tight spots of life. Its shown and proven itself to you before to do so. This is why its not blind or hope based.

You don't have anything to loose by using it but a lot of peace of mind to gain from using it. In that peace of mind, comes added strength and a sense of security that builds confidence in the self when the self seems to be falling a part under unrealistic pressure.

It's a faith that if you put your trust in it helps you to become more clear of the actual reality in the moment at hand and pulls you out of the superficial self created drama.

Great Topic ideas Jacques!

I am interested to read more takes on different types of faith here and the pros and cons. Your bit on the hope (putting yourself in the future to escape the now) sort was very interesting Adepted.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3851595 - 03/01/05 01:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

A topic close to my heart... :smile:

I don't have faith, I embody faith.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3851832 - 03/01/05 02:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Hi adepted, and welcome to S+P... you're a new face to me. :smile:

I'm glad you chimed in, as it helps to differentiate further what I meant by further defining what I didn't mean. :smile: Much like jiggy said, I think you're describing a variant of blind faith as opposed to faith.

Hope is much like blind faith, because there is no way for it to have proven itself to you already. When one hopes for a certain outcome, it will either happen or it won't. If it does not, disappointment is the result. If it does, a "Well I knew that was gonna happen" dismissal occurs.

When one does not hope in the first place, and things work out well, it's a wonderful surprise. When one does not hope in the first place, and things do not work out as well, there is no let down because there was no "mark to shoot for" in the first place... so the way things work out becomes acceptable in the sense that it is not less than one was hoping for. It just is.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: Seuss]
    #3851838 - 03/01/05 02:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Seuss, I would love if you could elaborate on the difference between what you mean when you say "have faith" versus "embody faith". :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3852325 - 03/01/05 03:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

blind faith is a turn of phrase and a handy one too.

faith is a practice, and it can be used blindly or not - but it is very effective - so effective that it has become confused in language with belief, belief systems and churches, and has been at the root of some unhappy proselytism too.

belief on the otherhand is like investments, you put your time and spirit into them, and wait for any results. Faith and patience helps with that stuff too, but does not need to be locked into it


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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3852366 - 03/01/05 04:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

EVERYONE has faith in something. If you've never been in space or traveled completely around the world, you may still believe the Earth is a sphere. Until you experience something first-hand, you take evidence presented by someone else on faith.


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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: moog]
    #3852892 - 03/01/05 05:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

right it saves the energy that you might spend in "questioning" and so it is valuable as a platform to continue on; sort of like driving on a bridge and building it at the same time.

you could say that faith is a very fast bridge builder.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3853185 - 03/01/05 06:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

YOU TRUST THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALIZED BEINGS AND THEY SAID IT
& THEREFORE YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE
IT'S NOT INFERENCE ANYMORE
IT'S NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PROCESS
YOU JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY HAVE SAID

THAT'S FAITH

SEE: WE'VE GOTTEN SO SUPER-SOPHISTICATED
IN OUR EVALUATIVE MECHANISMS
THAT YOU QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU HEAR
HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT BEING HUSTLED?
I MEAN: WHAT WAS JESUS UP TO?
WHAT'S THE GAME MAN?
WHAT'S HE INTO?
& YOU ESPECIALLY FEEL PARANOID
IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE KEEPERS OF THE TABLES
IN THE TEMPLE
IF YOU ARE COMMITTED TO AN EXISTING SYSTEM
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT

SOME WAY OR OTHER
MOST OF YOU IN THIS ROOM
(MOST OF YOU, NOT ALL OF YOU) MOST OF YOU
HAVE SENSED THE POSSIBILITY
BUT YOU CAN'T QUITE........!

SURRENDER


BE HERE NOW page 19-20


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineadeptMind
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853432 - 03/01/05 07:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Is this not a bit dangerous? Or I am the only one feeling that this Faith in e.g. the roundness of the Earth. To take on all these assumptions, just to save energy thinking about them?

No doubt that we need this fast bridge builder(?) in order to live happily and we need this carrying Faith in order to take the "leap" and trust that things will be okay. But am I the only one wondering whether or not this is a half-ass solution.

My suggestion sounds to engage Faith, recognize it, and go beyond it. Evaluating every single bit of life, every aspect, actively engage in all that comes across your mind - then either you dismiss it as not important to you, and completely throw it away from your mind - not just leaving it dwelling on what we call Faith. Or you engage it as interesting, pursuing, investigating deeper the thought.

This would ofcourse not be possible as you would have to seriously evaluate every single aspect of life you percieve, but would it not be the optimal?

Then if that's the ideal life of the mind, I would tend to say that Faith, even the one that carries us through our daily lives, is a short cut we take, because we feel incompetent - we feel that we cannot fully grasp life, so we (passively or actively???) choose the topics we concern and spin our worlds around.

Thought please...


--------------------
'Og jeg vil ikke have en Student,
Som ligger og laeser om Natten,
Jeg vil have en Officier,
Som gaaer med Fjaer udi Natten'



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853466 - 03/01/05 07:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
YOU TRUST THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALIZED BEINGS AND THEY SAID IT
& THEREFORE YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE
IT'S NOT INFERENCE ANYMORE
IT'S NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PROCESS
YOU JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY HAVE SAID

THAT'S FAITH

SEE: WE'VE GOTTEN SO SUPER-SOPHISTICATED
IN OUR EVALUATIVE MECHANISMS
THAT YOU QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU HEAR
HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT BEING HUSTLED?
I MEAN: WHAT WAS JESUS UP TO?
WHAT'S THE GAME MAN?
WHAT'S HE INTO?
& YOU ESPECIALLY FEEL PARANOID
IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE KEEPERS OF THE TABLES
IN THE TEMPLE
IF YOU ARE COMMITTED TO AN EXISTING SYSTEM
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT

SOME WAY OR OTHER
MOST OF YOU IN THIS ROOM
(MOST OF YOU, NOT ALL OF YOU) MOST OF YOU
HAVE SENSED THE POSSIBILITY
BUT YOU CAN'T QUITE........!

SURRENDER


BE HERE NOW page 19-20





--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853534 - 03/01/05 07:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

HOLY!

what's with all the yelling, I thought you had mr.and mrs compassion overlooking your meditations.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: Silversoul]
    #3853609 - 03/01/05 07:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I suppose you've never even seen a BE HERE NOW or you would understand the font selection.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3853648 - 03/01/05 07:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

They are, and the quote is a Compassionate message from them, through me, to you. P.S., if you pick up the book, you'll see a lot larger font than caps. It is for those who are very high on psychedelics, with very dilated pupils which can make reading very difficult. I was simply attempting to reproduce the effect.

What is it with people and capital letters anyway? AS IF they leap off the screen in some 'preternatural' way...people become offended...like they're "yelling!?" People, please, get a grip.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853683 - 03/01/05 08:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

we have space for all kinds of letters here, but only bullies require capslock to convey what is obvious, and then marshal the bullied to the "next stage"

I think it is a healthy response like antibodies only in philosophical terms it is anti-BS (anti-BullyScript).


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3853804 - 03/01/05 08:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Very inspirational words my new friend of friends....  :hug:

I have noticed one Major change in myself since I took my "leap of faith"....    Before casting out my doubt and "knowing", that lack of "something" in my life prooved to be very heavy on my mind, my heart, and my very being....  Having to fight with a concrete wall of logic to find what would proove to ME as evidence....    It was very much a decision to look, and once I started, I had no desire to stop that search....  Asking for a guiding hand to help point me in the right direction, and feeling silly for "talking to the air" in my absolute NEED to know if GOD DOES exist....  None the less, I asked out loud, and I asked a few times for the help I needed in my search....  :idea:

All of those subtle signs were all of the sudden very much obvious to my senses once I looked for them, to which I pursued with diligently pure intents of heart....  In retrospect, The closer I got, the more profound and "at peace" I became aware....  All in a realization of a fact I had doubted for so very long....  Until the point that I just "realized"....  People seem to always call faith a choice, but for me it was very much a realization of  the truth for what it is....  :shocked:

Now that my thought of Faith is no longer a heavy weight pushing down upon my very being, I can live at peace....  Now it just is, and is part of me to shine....  Free of that heavy burdon I chose to put upon myself....  That weight I once had almost feels like the opposite now, and it seems to lift my very essence and meaning in life....  And now EVERYTHING is silly, but in a humorous way instead of an uneasy way - even what I would have considered getting caught up in the "tough stuff" in life's "trials"....  :whip:  :tongue:

I am so glad I tasked this of myself, as there are definately no regrets of any kind....  It was by no means easy getting here, and I never knew if I would know for sure, but now I am here, and I KNOW....  and Because of this, it could NEVER be taken from ME, as it is a solid part of my existance, and part of my every thought....  And now that part of me is gleefully shining....    Pretty much on everything around me in my life....  :sun:

Makes me feel as tall as the trees - feet of the ground and the sky messing up my hair with the clouds, and SO VERY ALIVE....!      :heartpump:

Open Eyes, Open Ears, Open Heart....
(OoEE OoEE Oh....)    :tongue2:


ME....


:heart:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3853971 - 03/01/05 09:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

adeptMind said:
My suggestion sounds to engage Faith, recognize it, and go beyond it. Evaluating every single bit of life, every aspect, actively engage in all that comes across your mind - then either you dismiss it as not important to you, and completely throw it away from your mind - not just leaving it dwelling on what we call Faith. Or you engage it as interesting, pursuing, investigating deeper the thought.

This would ofcourse not be possible as you would have to seriously evaluate every single aspect of life you percieve, but would it not be the optimal?

Then if that's the ideal life of the mind, I would tend to say that Faith, even the one that carries us through our daily lives, is a short cut we take, because we feel incompetent - we feel that we cannot fully grasp life, so we (passively or actively???) choose the topics we concern and spin our worlds around.





This relates back to what I was discussing about mental load. When one tries to actively "check" every single thing they experience, it ends up being very demanding and stressful.. we feel like we CAN'T miss ANYTHING, because if we do, there goes the whole system! But alas... we DO miss things, and we KNOW it.. we start to keep this pile of things to "think about later" because it becomes so heavy... only the flow keeps coming in just as quick, so we never get to go back through that pile we've made to the side.

And before we know it, our stand-alone thinking machine has failed us.

This is why faith is necessary. Faith removes that built up mental load, which manifests itself as physical stress and anxiety or mental worry and paranoia.

It's not a shortcut we take because we feel incompetant... it's a helping hand that we NEED because we cannot handle it all on our own. There's just too much... because there's always more and more. It never ends. How can we finite and mortal beings handle such infinite demand? We can't. Only the infinite can handle infinite demand.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3854009 - 03/01/05 09:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Adepted,

It's good to still see you adding considerations to the broad topic of all the meanings of faith.

I have another way to explain the type of faith JC is referring to.

Say you have a cat and you let it out everyday. It goes to hide in the bushes for an hour and comes back in, same routine everyday. Now your neighbor tells you that her new cat ran out and got hit by a car.

Should you now move into fear, anxiety and worry that your cat will be hit? Of course not. Why? Because you can have faith that it will continue to stay away from the street and return safely as it has proven itself to do so every day for the last ten years.

The danger of it doing something radically different is so small, its not worth taking on the weight of worry, anxiety and fear. Believing it will remain safely away from the street because it has proven itself to is this type of faith.

Blind faith would be getting a new cat, letting it out and believing it will not dart into the street. It's blind faith to beleive it wo't because you have nothing of past experience to base that belief on.

Say your neighbor of ten years you have tea with every Saturday has always shown herself to be honest with you and to keep her word. A friend says that her neighbor is the biggest liar and cheated her out of some money. Should you now become suspicious of your neighbors words? Of course not. Why? Because for 10 years they have always shown their word to be true and honest. You can have faith in their words today and to come because they have proven themselves in the past.

Is there a danger in that they may lie to you next week and swindle you out of $1,000? It's possible but the chance so slim its not worth worrying about. You can loan the money with peace of mind.

Now, a NEW neighbor moves in and you believe they will return your shovel tomorrow, you are acting on blind faith to believe that because you have no past experience to base that belief of trust on.

Does this clear up the sort of faith being discussed here? You can trust in something and believe it will be so and is so because it has proven itself to be so time and time again in the past. Granted that is not a 100% guarantee but it does keep life free of extraneous fear and drama and offers the optimum experience of living within peace of mind.

Without it we would live in constant suspicion, worry, skepticism, fear, doubt, negativity, lack of self confidence that would lead to paranoia and a separation from basic trust and security that has been earned.

I think the danger you are seeing is still being applied to the blind sort of faith. I think the point of this post was to highlight that not all faith beliefs are completely blind and that some are based on a significant history of repeated experiential proof.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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