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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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faith
    #2009354 - 10/14/03 09:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It takes as much faith to believe that God does not exist as it does to believe that He does.

There is my claim, dispute it if you wish and then I will rebutt.



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OfflineMAIA
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Re: faith [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #2009420 - 10/14/03 09:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So, do you have faith in your faith ?
Let me think ....
Faith: Spending mental energy with unknown characters.
Can you find anything wrong with this sentence ?

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: faith [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #2009467 - 10/14/03 09:58 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I don't understand how it takes any faith to not believe. Your acting like there is evidence of God's existence, or that there is a strong undeniable reason to believe in him besides the fear of eternal hell.


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Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: faith [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2009488 - 10/14/03 10:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

its takes a belief in yourself to have faith within your own ideas... i guess, does it not? Cause if you didnt "believe" in your own ideas... then wouldnt it just be mere speculation? If you believe to not believe... a belief none the less. You find out there is no "light at the end of the tunnel" you are left with a void of questions on why or how that is there. But for me... i think we choose our existance to an extent, but i do believe that there are things outside of me that i cannot control. Some things are not what they seem, while others are more than they appear on the surface. Faith and hope... so close together, yet so ambiguous in what they give to those who choose to use them...


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: faith [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #2009570 - 10/14/03 10:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That's why I'm comfortable as an agnostic. The reasoning that led me to excommunicate myself from theism also made it impossible to believe that god or gods don't exist. It's just an irrelevancy.


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OfflineSpokesman
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Re: faith [Re: hongomon]
    #2009674 - 10/14/03 10:59 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think the point he is trying to make is that everyone belives something, no one lives their whole life without pondering and attaching itself to certain beliefs. Even if that belief is that Atoms sprouted up in a timeless void for no reason. Its still a belief, that you know that can either be true or false. Any intelegent thinker knows not to attach himself comepletly to one belief. I don't belive in God, i say that because of what the majority considers to be a "god". But i never dismiss the possibility that i will one day die and see that there is one. I study diffrent religions, learn from their good teachings and from what i can see that is wrong with them. Even though at the time i dont belive in God i belive i can use my life as a learning ground. If there is a god that would punish me because i wasnt able to learn the truth about life before i die than he sounds like an asshole and i wouldnt want to spend eternity with him anyway. So my faith alows me to explore Earth without fear.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: faith [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #2009702 - 10/14/03 11:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Do you believe in unicorns? Leprechauns? How 'bout elves? Prove that they don't exist. If there is no evidence of something's existence, then it requires more faith to believe it doesn't exist than to believe it does. The most rational stance, however, is suspended judgement, aka agnosticism.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: faith [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2009786 - 10/14/03 11:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Everyone has faith in some First Cause. Existence itself is proof of an origin. I can't imagine that the interconnected systems-within-systems-within-systems of the human body from the macro-level to the molecular level are 'accidental.' All THAT conclusion says is that TIME is god. That if there is sufficient TIME, any number of 'accidents' and subsequent recombinations from atomic to molecular to self-replicating molecules will occur, and that life in its complexity will occur as it has on Earth. THAT point of view is as impossible, laughable and ridiculous to me as the idea of GOD used to be when I was a child. The former tries to make the Mystery of Existence comprehensible to the pathetic human ego that really knows very little. THAT point of view is simple materialism, AS IF a Human Being is merely 'intelligent meat!' This is no philosophy at all, it is a crude conclusion.

As far as I'm concerned, this kind of view is saying that a mountain is 'more real' than a person because in TIME a mountain lasts longer, and therefore TIME is the measure of Reality. Relative to Eternity, a mountain is as ephemeral as a cloud. Space-time is creation. Creation has long been thought of (at least by philosophical Hindu Brahmins) as the ideas of GOD projected into a physical dimension (also created) - or, three spatial and one temporal dimension. Of course, quantum theory, the occasional 'miracle' and paranormal events can show that this physical world is nowhere as 'real' as it seems, and physics is preceded by metaphysics [before-physics] which takes one back to THAT which precedes creation - THAT which is ontologically prior to creation - the Creator.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: faith [Re: Spokesman]
    #2010104 - 10/15/03 12:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I thought his claim was pretty straightforward--that it takes as much faith to believe that god doesn't exist as to believe that he does. That everyone believes something is a different point. I think they're both valid points. Here's something I believe: that the way I should live my life is the same whether there is one god, a thousand gods, or none. (Which is why I say the god question is an irrelevancy.)


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: faith [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2010129 - 10/15/03 12:49 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You know, if you reason your way into what you feel is a logical proof of the existence of a creator, all you're really doing is shifting the First Cause question back a notch. It's fun to stretch the brain, but at the end of the day I don't see the value in it.

Here's an interesting article from the Atlantic Monthly: E.T. and God


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: faith [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2010364 - 10/15/03 02:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

That is exactly where I was coming from.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: faith [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #2010424 - 10/15/03 02:58 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

huh huh! huhuhuhuh you said "rebutt!"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: faith [Re: hongomon]
    #2010541 - 10/15/03 03:44 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Not really...it is simply to provide an answer for the question "What first caused?"

An athiest must also answer this question to be secure in his belief and I believe that the popular, and similarly unsubstantiated response is "cosmic accident"

An agnostic answers "I don't know."


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: faith [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #2010799 - 10/15/03 06:45 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
It takes as much faith to believe that God does not exist as it does to believe that He does.

There is my claim, dispute it if you wish and then I will rebutt.





This is true. Any belief one holds is held by faith. We have faith in the answers that science finds. If you are going to believe ANYTHING is true or not true, you have to have faith that it is or isn't true.

If I truly believe that the sky is blue, I have faith in the fact that I am correct in observing the sky's blueness.

If you have no evidence towards the existance of God or not, and you are sort of undecided, you have faith in the fact that no evidence has been given to you..

Faith equals belief, otherwise it isn't a belief.
Peace.


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: faith [Re: hongomon]
    #2010833 - 10/15/03 07:26 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Who knows how you chose to live your life? If it is consonant with 'The Way,' then it is simply your unconsciousness of 'the image and likeness' of Divinity, impressed upon your very soul that governs your life. It is not up to your mammalian ego to live in any way that denies itself for another. Self-denial for another is Compassionate, Transcendental and Loving. These qualities are transcendental qualities (not to be redundant) and are not the 'selfishnesss of the self.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: faith [Re: hongomon]
    #2010838 - 10/15/03 07:29 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

...Whereas, at the end of the day, I give thanks for It All.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: faith [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2010845 - 10/15/03 07:38 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
...Whereas, at the end of the day, I give thanks for It All. 




At night, I remind myself to remind myself in the morning of the cosmicness... hehe. The word has its own special meaning to me, relative to my highest state of awareness.. I remind myself of how all my thoughts create me and who I am, and how every experience I am faced with should be openly received... stuff like that. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: faith [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2010878 - 10/15/03 08:35 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Not that I disagree with you, but I like to argue, sooo:  :grin:

> I can't imagine that the interconnected systems-within-systems-within-systems of the human body from the macro-level to the molecular level are 'accidental.'

There are many cases where a very simple system creates an extremly complex result.  Chaos theory is full of examples.  People tend to forget how small a period of time humans have been around for when compared to the age of the earth, let along the age of the universe.  If we draw a timeline from the birth of earth to present day, and show the last 20,000 years as a single inch on the timeline, the entire line would stretch out something like 20 miles.  Our little lifespan of 60-70 years is insignificant at this scale.

Perhaps "God" is simply a creation of the ego.  I feel better about myself when some "Godly" parent figure took the time and effort to create me... and I am part of some big plan...aren't I special.  :smile:

I see where the original poster is coming from... faith in big bang versus faith in creationism, etc.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: faith [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2010991 - 10/15/03 10:49 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If it is consonant with 'The Way,' then it is simply your unconsciousness of 'the image and likeness' of Divinity, impressed upon your very soul that governs your life.

I would be surprised if a gnostic didn't hold such a belief about morality and altruism. There certainly would be no point in my being bothered by others having views of me and my reality that I don't share.

What did you think of the article?


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: faith [Re: Seuss]
    #2011012 - 10/15/03 11:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

OF course this all assumes that humans have the knowledge to understand the universe. We have a great imagination, and to most and to me it meets or exceeds my ability for a system of ordered thought. The tao... the way. That which exists, that which doesnt. How would i argue for an existence that i have no part of... i.e. being dead? Where was i before i came here, was I even here at all? I dont think so. Creation is like art... it is never ending... and continually influences all other "art" or "creation" around it as well. What the soul creator is... is simply the all inclusive meme... is it not? A set of all those things which we cant explain about our own existence. The tao represents i think... in what i have learned the system for such an existence. But the tao doesnt give one the experience... i think it only gives one the map. Christianity seems to be a way to surrender to such a thing... Athiesm is keeping yourself from straight forward non sense... agnosticism is admiting the truth... that in all our existence there is some things we dont know... the middle path.

Basically I think there are way too many things to be considered at one point in time to fully understand creation. Creation not as in "creationism", and not a big bang theory either... but simply the explanation for that which does exist. The big bang probably happened... but could it have come from nothing? I doubt that highly... The combination of two opposing forces on a cosmic scale...? Highly likely. Could it be that this happens all throughout eternity in every way... THat things are born... they experience... they die... That is the never ending cycle. The all encompassing is God? God is at the center... When we meditate... we become centered and we think were finding god... WHen we are finding that place that is neither nothing or everything... but that place at tao? I dont know. I guess it all depends on what you have "faith" in, but then again... maybe not.


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What?


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