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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Re: Proof that faith is a crock?  [Re: Sclorch]
#1207188 - 01/10/03 01:02 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have faith that GoBlue! and/or schlorch can shred any of these weak arguments for the power of faith.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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 Murex
Reality Hacker
Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Sclorch]
#1207209 - 01/10/03 01:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Any religon that you have to pay money to in order to go to heaven is a crock.
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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Murex]
#1207232 - 01/10/03 01:29 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Judaism and Christianity both believe in tithing or giving 10% of one's income to God's work (whatever THAT means!).
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The proof is in the pudding.
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deep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1207264 - 01/10/03 01:43 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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faith is pretty lame considering that to have faith in something means you are doubting its existence
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soylent_green
The greatEnitsuj
Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 765
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1207287 - 01/10/03 01:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
old story -
a group of blind men were at the zoo. the zookeeper took them to the elephants cage, opened the door and let them in, 'go on check it out, the elephant is very placid'.
the first guy groped around until he found the elephants trunk, he wrapped his hands around it and studied its girth and length, 'an elephant is like a thick rope' he informed the others.
the 2nd man found one of the elephant's ears, 'no', he argued, 'an elephant is like a giant palm leaf.'
the third found a leg,' no, you guys are stupid, an elephant is like a tree"
the 4th, the tail,'what are you guys on? an elephant is like a snake'.
they started arguing about their conclusions. the 4th fellow tried to walk around to beat some sense into the others, but walked into the side of the elephant and fell down backwards, 'watch-out' he shouted 'its attacking me!'
maybe its best not to be certain about things we don't have the facilities to fully comprehend.
our 5 senses only detect a very small percentage of what is.
i have that sorty....in a really old...really cool story book
in believe in what i believe in
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What fun is it in Nirvana while other beings are suffering?
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Moe Howard [Re: Sclorch]
#1207336 - 01/10/03 02:20 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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GoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK
Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
#1207527 - 01/10/03 03:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
any of you consider pascals wager?
Pascal's wager actaully sounds good, except for one major issue: Pascal assumed that there are only two alternative bets; become a Roman Catholic or not. But those are not the only two choices. There are an infinite number of beliefs that could be chosen from, so your odds of betting on the right one (assuming any of them are right) are very slim, if not impossible. Here's a link I found in another thread:
Rejection of Pascal's Wager
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 Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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Adamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
 
Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1207535 - 01/10/03 03:42 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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All religions are right for those that think they are.
If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real?
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 { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } }
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GoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK
Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Adamist]
#1207602 - 01/10/03 04:09 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real?
You know, that's a damn good question! I don't know the anwer. Any thoughts on this from the Shroomery???
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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3eyedgod
trippinkid
Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
Loc: Far away and very near
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1207763 - 01/10/03 05:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real?
You know, that's a damn good question! I don't know the anwer. Any thoughts on this from the Shroomery???
Experience is experience. 
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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself
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GoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK
Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: 3eyedgod]
#1207850 - 01/10/03 06:08 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Experience is experience.
I don't get it. 
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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deep_umbra
Stranger
Registered: 05/12/02
Posts: 109
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1208018 - 01/10/03 07:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
If a placebo works, does it make the effects any less real?
You know, that's a damn good question! I don't know the anwer. Any thoughts on this from the Shroomery???
why would the effects be less real? if you can guage the effects, they're obviously real
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Anonymous
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 Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: 3eyedgod]
#1208121 - 01/10/03 08:22 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Experience is experience.
Exactly.
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OkEyToKeY
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 88
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? *DELETED* [Re: ]
#1208150 - 01/10/03 08:37 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by OkEyToKeYReason for deletion: .
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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 Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
#1208200 - 01/10/03 09:20 PM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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I guess I inadvertantly struck a nerve...
i never said i followed it, nor did i ever say it was incontrovertible
personally, i do NOT go with "better safe than sorry"
I never said YOU subscribe to Pascal's wager.
You, on the other hand, seem to love probability and what you call pragmatism,
???
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here... oh well.
so i gave you something I thought youd at least CONSIDER
note: read realllllly carefully, i said "consider"
Riiiight. I'm quite familiar with Pascal. But whenever there is a "proof" or whatever, I'm going to critique it... I was just stating what I thought- free of charge!
I dont mean to sound cheeky, but im a tad annoyed when people twist my words and then say stuff like "It really is sad that people call that faith"- which had NOTHING to do with anything i said, faith itself is not something that probability touches upon
I think it has EVERYTHING to do with Pascal's wager.
I'm sorry if you don't see it that way.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Adamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: OkEyToKeY]
#1208424 - 01/11/03 03:30 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Everything is relative to the frame from within which it is viewed.
But what if you step outside the frame?
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{ { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } }
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GoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK
Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: deep_umbra]
#1208602 - 01/11/03 05:38 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why would the effects be less real? if you can guage the effects, they're obviously real
Ya, I guess the question is whether or not a placebo actually works, or if it is only perceived to work. If a person has a headache and takes a placebo, they may feel better and we would conclude the placebo worked. But if a person has cancer and goes to Benny Hinn for help, the placebo effect may help that person feel healed. But they could still end up dying from cancer, and in that case we would conclude that the placebo didn't work.
So if we think there is a God and there really isn't, our lives may run exactly as if there were one. But when we die, there would still be no heaven, so in that case, the placebo wouldn't work.
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1208736 - 01/11/03 06:47 AM (20 years, 4 months ago) |
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There are two main schools of mysticism, which is what you are referring to when you cite people's Experience of God. One school, which is not as prevalent, holds to a PCE or Pure Consciousness Experience, which is deemed universal and completely uncolored by an individual's psychological, cultural or religious background.
The other school (actually, a group of schools with varying differences) is the Constuctionist school of mysticism which insists that all mystical experiences are in some degree interactive with one's religious beliefs. That is, the Exprience is both colored by pre-existing notions, and also constructs one's beliefs based upon the Experience itself.
Faith qua faith is a completely separate category of knowledge. It is more closely related to intuition than to sensation as a mode of apprehending Reality, and like intuition, it works independently of the sense organs. Most people have 'faith' in their senses and the rational mind. Faith in GOD, at least according to Christian principles of theology, derive from GOD - from That aspect of GOD called the Holy Spirit, which is apparently That aspect which can interface (for lack of a better word) with the human spirit (or, consciousness). Faith in GOD, is therefore, a 'gift of the Holy Spirit,' and can be 'asked for' which is an open-minded and open-hearted state of consciousness, and is also a 'prayer.'
Faith does not always, or even usually, give rise to 'certainty.' Certainty or 'assurance' is the result of living a life of faith. In other words, having faith in faith, despite empirical evidence to the contrary, can eventually bring about a level of Illumination or Enlightenment, in which a type of assurance or knowing comes about. In my own prayer life, this happens after a petitionary prayer at times, and when it does occur, the prayer invariably corresponds to the future event asked for. I am 'assured' of the results of the petitionary prayer at the time of the prayer. I feel like giving thanks (prayer of thanksgiving), and I am never deceived or disappointed. As I have gotten older, I have become more in touch with these subtle inner events. Theologically speaking, assurance is an aspect of spiritual development called 'Sanctification,' in which one is becoming increasingly Sanctified, Whole, and Holy (Holiness derives meaning from Wholeness). Yes, 'Holiness' obviously has a strong moral quality, but then 'Enlightenment' (so often used at the Shroomery) doesn't have as close an association to morality in the minds of Shroomerites. They are identical however, regardless of whether one is a Theist or not. If, for example, casual sex and petty dishonesties are obstacles to Holiness, they are obstacles to Enlightenment, Illumination, or whatever one wants to define higher states of being.
Nevertheless, this all gets back to faith. Basic ethics are prerequisite to morality based on Compassion, and faith in Compassion (as The Way) is prerequisite to faith in Wisdom which 'descends from On High.'
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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