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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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The difference between Faith and Blind Faith.
    #3850895 - 03/01/05 08:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

All too frequently I see individuals here being put down for what they've confessed to be faith-based beliefs.

The word faith is very easily misinterpretted. Faith is NOT believing in that which cannot be proven to you. THAT definition belongs to blind faith.

Faith is believing in that which HAS proven itself to you.

For example:

Blind faith is believing any one theory on how the universe began... because there's absolutely no way for you to know that. You weren't there... no one was. To believe that "this is absolutely how it happened"--whether in regards to the big boom (science fanatics, skeptics) or in regards to a creation theory (religious)--THAT is blind faith.

Faith, on the other hand... faith is believing that which HAS proven itself to you. And the most important kinds of faith (often overlooked by those seeking larger answers) are the ones that manifest themselves in your daily life.

Faith is knowing that when you stop consciously choosing to take breath, SOMETHING still makes you breathe.

Humans are prone to mental loads. We try to take on everything on our own. "I can do it!" we say, when we are children, looking to the future.

We try to remember everything. Gotta do this.. gotta remember that. Gotta remember this... it all compounds into this huge mental load that we don't even know we carry. Before we know it, our attitude has changed from "I can do it!" to "I am just barely hanging on by a thread here..."

Faith is surrendering this load. Faith is saying, "I give up. I just can't carry this anymore." and collapsing... letting the load fall to the ground.

What we find when we take this "leap of faith" (aka, taking a chance) is that we still live on, and things still work themselves out for you without you worrying about it. We find that the mental stress was the real culprit of our unhappiness in the first place... and we find we are all the more empowered now that we've released the burden.

With faith, we find great power, because we no longer have to stand on our own, trying to hold up this huge mental load. We must accept our own weakness... we must be humble and ready to admit that we cannot handle this on our own... it's too much.

And so, faith is ultimately surrender. It is surrender to what is, to the higher knowledge and ability that surrounds you. It is a release of any expectation that you know how things will work out. It is believing that your path will unfold before you, and that you need only keep watch for the road signs pointing the way.

You will not see a plan or a map. You will not know how your life will unfold. As you look back on your life, is it not true that the plans you laid out so carefully were often foiled by unexpected circumstances? Is it not also true that the best and most wondrous things that happened to you came as great surprises, in wild and unexpected glories?

Is it not this wild and unexpected nature that makes these great surprises so wonderful?

And is it not planning and trying to force your life along a path that you've personally decided upon that makes things difficult for you? The rigid framework of a pre-decided step-by-step path does not allow for the wild and unexpected. It only causes stress, as you create an internal disagreement with that which is.

Acceptance and surrender are the lessons of faith.

I ask that those of you who tend to put down "believers" recognize that you are stereotyping. You are making a HUGE and drastically unfair generalization.

Skeptics, realize that even amongst what you consider your own kind, there are many a believer. This does not make them any less of a skeptic, however. There is no cut and dry.. and there is no black and white dividing line. These two "groups" blend into eachother. The grey area is much more prominent than you'd like to acknowledge.

Take this into account when approaching individuals. Try to view them as an individual, and not a member of a pre-decided grouping that you defined. You owe it to them, for all the times that you've already pre-judged them.

Furthermore, people change. The person you associate with one alias may not be the same person the next time you are confronted with this same alias. Sure, they are the same lifeline... but people change so drastically in such short amounts of time, it's like a whole different person. So don't even judge someone by their history, or your past experiences with them. Experience who they are now, and what's happening NOW. Don't allow the past to dictate your present and future.

That's it. I'm done.


Edited by JacquesCousteau (03/01/05 08:48 AM)


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3851060 - 03/01/05 10:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Treat the other man's faith gently; it is all he has to believe with. His mind was created for his own thoughts, not yours or mine.




Henry S. Haskins

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineadeptMind
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MAIA]
    #3851134 - 03/01/05 10:54 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Dearest Jacques,

I thank you for your shared view on Faith.

I was wondering if you have considered the relation between the Faith you are talking about and Hope. By asking this I mean the relation between Faith that carries you in the moment and Faith in the future, Faith in what you hope for will happen in the future.

While the Faith you discussed is genuinely positive and should be embraced, the Faith in the future I see as problematic. I often sense that this Faith takes the focus of the present. You kinda give up your presence in the Moment, in order to trade it for a brighter future.

For instance, a young man sitting at home in his senior year of high school. He's having great troubles with parents and friends, but Faith keeps him up as he knows he's accepted to a University far away and he has Faith in that things will be better soon. Thus he pushes life away into an imaginary world of the future time, carried by Faith.

Although really happy for this boy that he sees a brighter future, I pity him for sacrificing the Moment, choosing to accept his current misery, for a future he has Faith in...

Please do not make the same mistake you pointed out; I'm not talking about blind faith, but the same Faith you described.

I see this as very problematic duelism of Faith and was happy when I read your comment, as it spelled out, things I have been trying to put together in my head for some time.


--------------------
'Og jeg vil ikke have en Student,
Som ligger og laeser om Natten,
Jeg vil have en Officier,
Som gaaer med Fjaer udi Natten'



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3851568 - 03/01/05 01:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

MAIA,

Great quote about ones mind being created for their own thoughts! Thanks for sharing that.

Adepted, that was neat how you pointed out the difference between hope faith and faith versus blind faith to add to JC's post. Good stuff!

I talked with JC about this before he posted and he was coming from a place of having faith in the good in the now and surrendering to that. There is a difference. You were talking about people surrendering to the good of the future in sacrifice of the now.

I think it was more about not giving in to the fear of the moments that overwhelm but rather letting go of them to surrender to the basic security of what supports your basic life in the now.

Think of all the things that happen in ones life where at the time it seems like the end of it, yet was it? No. You are still breathing.

Take the guy who fucks up on the job and thinks, my boss is going to kill me, its so over. Hope based faith would be the guy thinking about another job offer he'd gotten last week and then shifts into the brighter future of a new job with a different boss to cope with the pressure and fear he feels in the now.

I think the sort of faith JC was talking about would be for the guy to say to himself, "I've made mistakes before and my boss understood because he is a good and reasonable man and I am a good employee over all. Or to add, he could think, I have lost jobs before and the world didn't stop spinning and I was okay and still am and will be regardless of what happens with this one.

Its putting trust in that something that makes everything turn out okay even when it doesn't look like it will. It's putting trust in that something in yourself that seems to pull you through the tight spots of life. Its shown and proven itself to you before to do so. This is why its not blind or hope based.

You don't have anything to loose by using it but a lot of peace of mind to gain from using it. In that peace of mind, comes added strength and a sense of security that builds confidence in the self when the self seems to be falling a part under unrealistic pressure.

It's a faith that if you put your trust in it helps you to become more clear of the actual reality in the moment at hand and pulls you out of the superficial self created drama.

Great Topic ideas Jacques!

I am interested to read more takes on different types of faith here and the pros and cons. Your bit on the hope (putting yourself in the future to escape the now) sort was very interesting Adepted.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3851595 - 03/01/05 01:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

A topic close to my heart... :smile:

I don't have faith, I embody faith.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3851832 - 03/01/05 02:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Hi adepted, and welcome to S+P... you're a new face to me. :smile:

I'm glad you chimed in, as it helps to differentiate further what I meant by further defining what I didn't mean. :smile: Much like jiggy said, I think you're describing a variant of blind faith as opposed to faith.

Hope is much like blind faith, because there is no way for it to have proven itself to you already. When one hopes for a certain outcome, it will either happen or it won't. If it does not, disappointment is the result. If it does, a "Well I knew that was gonna happen" dismissal occurs.

When one does not hope in the first place, and things work out well, it's a wonderful surprise. When one does not hope in the first place, and things do not work out as well, there is no let down because there was no "mark to shoot for" in the first place... so the way things work out becomes acceptable in the sense that it is not less than one was hoping for. It just is.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: Seuss]
    #3851838 - 03/01/05 02:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Seuss, I would love if you could elaborate on the difference between what you mean when you say "have faith" versus "embody faith". :smile:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3852325 - 03/01/05 03:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

blind faith is a turn of phrase and a handy one too.

faith is a practice, and it can be used blindly or not - but it is very effective - so effective that it has become confused in language with belief, belief systems and churches, and has been at the root of some unhappy proselytism too.

belief on the otherhand is like investments, you put your time and spirit into them, and wait for any results. Faith and patience helps with that stuff too, but does not need to be locked into it


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3852366 - 03/01/05 04:01 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

EVERYONE has faith in something. If you've never been in space or traveled completely around the world, you may still believe the Earth is a sphere. Until you experience something first-hand, you take evidence presented by someone else on faith.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: moog]
    #3852892 - 03/01/05 05:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

right it saves the energy that you might spend in "questioning" and so it is valuable as a platform to continue on; sort of like driving on a bridge and building it at the same time.

you could say that faith is a very fast bridge builder.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3853185 - 03/01/05 06:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

YOU TRUST THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALIZED BEINGS AND THEY SAID IT
& THEREFORE YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE
IT'S NOT INFERENCE ANYMORE
IT'S NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PROCESS
YOU JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY HAVE SAID

THAT'S FAITH

SEE: WE'VE GOTTEN SO SUPER-SOPHISTICATED
IN OUR EVALUATIVE MECHANISMS
THAT YOU QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU HEAR
HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT BEING HUSTLED?
I MEAN: WHAT WAS JESUS UP TO?
WHAT'S THE GAME MAN?
WHAT'S HE INTO?
& YOU ESPECIALLY FEEL PARANOID
IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE KEEPERS OF THE TABLES
IN THE TEMPLE
IF YOU ARE COMMITTED TO AN EXISTING SYSTEM
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT

SOME WAY OR OTHER
MOST OF YOU IN THIS ROOM
(MOST OF YOU, NOT ALL OF YOU) MOST OF YOU
HAVE SENSED THE POSSIBILITY
BUT YOU CAN'T QUITE........!

SURRENDER


BE HERE NOW page 19-20


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineadeptMind
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853432 - 03/01/05 07:09 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Is this not a bit dangerous? Or I am the only one feeling that this Faith in e.g. the roundness of the Earth. To take on all these assumptions, just to save energy thinking about them?

No doubt that we need this fast bridge builder(?) in order to live happily and we need this carrying Faith in order to take the "leap" and trust that things will be okay. But am I the only one wondering whether or not this is a half-ass solution.

My suggestion sounds to engage Faith, recognize it, and go beyond it. Evaluating every single bit of life, every aspect, actively engage in all that comes across your mind - then either you dismiss it as not important to you, and completely throw it away from your mind - not just leaving it dwelling on what we call Faith. Or you engage it as interesting, pursuing, investigating deeper the thought.

This would ofcourse not be possible as you would have to seriously evaluate every single aspect of life you percieve, but would it not be the optimal?

Then if that's the ideal life of the mind, I would tend to say that Faith, even the one that carries us through our daily lives, is a short cut we take, because we feel incompetent - we feel that we cannot fully grasp life, so we (passively or actively???) choose the topics we concern and spin our worlds around.

Thought please...


--------------------
'Og jeg vil ikke have en Student,
Som ligger og laeser om Natten,
Jeg vil have en Officier,
Som gaaer med Fjaer udi Natten'



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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853466 - 03/01/05 07:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
YOU TRUST THE FACT THAT THERE ARE REALIZED BEINGS AND THEY SAID IT
& THEREFORE YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE
IT'S NOT INFERENCE ANYMORE
IT'S NOT AN INTELLECTUAL PROCESS
YOU JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY HAVE SAID

THAT'S FAITH

SEE: WE'VE GOTTEN SO SUPER-SOPHISTICATED
IN OUR EVALUATIVE MECHANISMS
THAT YOU QUESTION EVERYTHING YOU HEAR
HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU'RE NOT BEING HUSTLED?
I MEAN: WHAT WAS JESUS UP TO?
WHAT'S THE GAME MAN?
WHAT'S HE INTO?
& YOU ESPECIALLY FEEL PARANOID
IF YOU ARE ONE OF THE KEEPERS OF THE TABLES
IN THE TEMPLE
IF YOU ARE COMMITTED TO AN EXISTING SYSTEM
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT
WITH GREAT ATTACHMENT

SOME WAY OR OTHER
MOST OF YOU IN THIS ROOM
(MOST OF YOU, NOT ALL OF YOU) MOST OF YOU
HAVE SENSED THE POSSIBILITY
BUT YOU CAN'T QUITE........!

SURRENDER


BE HERE NOW page 19-20





--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853534 - 03/01/05 07:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

HOLY!

what's with all the yelling, I thought you had mr.and mrs compassion overlooking your meditations.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: Silversoul]
    #3853609 - 03/01/05 07:46 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I suppose you've never even seen a BE HERE NOW or you would understand the font selection.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3853648 - 03/01/05 07:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

They are, and the quote is a Compassionate message from them, through me, to you. P.S., if you pick up the book, you'll see a lot larger font than caps. It is for those who are very high on psychedelics, with very dilated pupils which can make reading very difficult. I was simply attempting to reproduce the effect.

What is it with people and capital letters anyway? AS IF they leap off the screen in some 'preternatural' way...people become offended...like they're "yelling!?" People, please, get a grip.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3853683 - 03/01/05 08:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

we have space for all kinds of letters here, but only bullies require capslock to convey what is obvious, and then marshal the bullied to the "next stage"

I think it is a healthy response like antibodies only in philosophical terms it is anti-BS (anti-BullyScript).


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3853804 - 03/01/05 08:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Very inspirational words my new friend of friends....  :hug:

I have noticed one Major change in myself since I took my "leap of faith"....    Before casting out my doubt and "knowing", that lack of "something" in my life prooved to be very heavy on my mind, my heart, and my very being....  Having to fight with a concrete wall of logic to find what would proove to ME as evidence....    It was very much a decision to look, and once I started, I had no desire to stop that search....  Asking for a guiding hand to help point me in the right direction, and feeling silly for "talking to the air" in my absolute NEED to know if GOD DOES exist....  None the less, I asked out loud, and I asked a few times for the help I needed in my search....  :idea:

All of those subtle signs were all of the sudden very much obvious to my senses once I looked for them, to which I pursued with diligently pure intents of heart....  In retrospect, The closer I got, the more profound and "at peace" I became aware....  All in a realization of a fact I had doubted for so very long....  Until the point that I just "realized"....  People seem to always call faith a choice, but for me it was very much a realization of  the truth for what it is....  :shocked:

Now that my thought of Faith is no longer a heavy weight pushing down upon my very being, I can live at peace....  Now it just is, and is part of me to shine....  Free of that heavy burdon I chose to put upon myself....  That weight I once had almost feels like the opposite now, and it seems to lift my very essence and meaning in life....  And now EVERYTHING is silly, but in a humorous way instead of an uneasy way - even what I would have considered getting caught up in the "tough stuff" in life's "trials"....  :whip:  :tongue:

I am so glad I tasked this of myself, as there are definately no regrets of any kind....  It was by no means easy getting here, and I never knew if I would know for sure, but now I am here, and I KNOW....  and Because of this, it could NEVER be taken from ME, as it is a solid part of my existance, and part of my every thought....  And now that part of me is gleefully shining....    Pretty much on everything around me in my life....  :sun:

Makes me feel as tall as the trees - feet of the ground and the sky messing up my hair with the clouds, and SO VERY ALIVE....!      :heartpump:

Open Eyes, Open Ears, Open Heart....
(OoEE OoEE Oh....)    :tongue2:


ME....


:heart:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3853971 - 03/01/05 09:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

adeptMind said:
My suggestion sounds to engage Faith, recognize it, and go beyond it. Evaluating every single bit of life, every aspect, actively engage in all that comes across your mind - then either you dismiss it as not important to you, and completely throw it away from your mind - not just leaving it dwelling on what we call Faith. Or you engage it as interesting, pursuing, investigating deeper the thought.

This would ofcourse not be possible as you would have to seriously evaluate every single aspect of life you percieve, but would it not be the optimal?

Then if that's the ideal life of the mind, I would tend to say that Faith, even the one that carries us through our daily lives, is a short cut we take, because we feel incompetent - we feel that we cannot fully grasp life, so we (passively or actively???) choose the topics we concern and spin our worlds around.





This relates back to what I was discussing about mental load. When one tries to actively "check" every single thing they experience, it ends up being very demanding and stressful.. we feel like we CAN'T miss ANYTHING, because if we do, there goes the whole system! But alas... we DO miss things, and we KNOW it.. we start to keep this pile of things to "think about later" because it becomes so heavy... only the flow keeps coming in just as quick, so we never get to go back through that pile we've made to the side.

And before we know it, our stand-alone thinking machine has failed us.

This is why faith is necessary. Faith removes that built up mental load, which manifests itself as physical stress and anxiety or mental worry and paranoia.

It's not a shortcut we take because we feel incompetant... it's a helping hand that we NEED because we cannot handle it all on our own. There's just too much... because there's always more and more. It never ends. How can we finite and mortal beings handle such infinite demand? We can't. Only the infinite can handle infinite demand.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: adeptMind]
    #3854009 - 03/01/05 09:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Adepted,

It's good to still see you adding considerations to the broad topic of all the meanings of faith.

I have another way to explain the type of faith JC is referring to.

Say you have a cat and you let it out everyday. It goes to hide in the bushes for an hour and comes back in, same routine everyday. Now your neighbor tells you that her new cat ran out and got hit by a car.

Should you now move into fear, anxiety and worry that your cat will be hit? Of course not. Why? Because you can have faith that it will continue to stay away from the street and return safely as it has proven itself to do so every day for the last ten years.

The danger of it doing something radically different is so small, its not worth taking on the weight of worry, anxiety and fear. Believing it will remain safely away from the street because it has proven itself to is this type of faith.

Blind faith would be getting a new cat, letting it out and believing it will not dart into the street. It's blind faith to beleive it wo't because you have nothing of past experience to base that belief on.

Say your neighbor of ten years you have tea with every Saturday has always shown herself to be honest with you and to keep her word. A friend says that her neighbor is the biggest liar and cheated her out of some money. Should you now become suspicious of your neighbors words? Of course not. Why? Because for 10 years they have always shown their word to be true and honest. You can have faith in their words today and to come because they have proven themselves in the past.

Is there a danger in that they may lie to you next week and swindle you out of $1,000? It's possible but the chance so slim its not worth worrying about. You can loan the money with peace of mind.

Now, a NEW neighbor moves in and you believe they will return your shovel tomorrow, you are acting on blind faith to believe that because you have no past experience to base that belief of trust on.

Does this clear up the sort of faith being discussed here? You can trust in something and believe it will be so and is so because it has proven itself to be so time and time again in the past. Granted that is not a 100% guarantee but it does keep life free of extraneous fear and drama and offers the optimum experience of living within peace of mind.

Without it we would live in constant suspicion, worry, skepticism, fear, doubt, negativity, lack of self confidence that would lead to paranoia and a separation from basic trust and security that has been earned.

I think the danger you are seeing is still being applied to the blind sort of faith. I think the point of this post was to highlight that not all faith beliefs are completely blind and that some are based on a significant history of repeated experiential proof.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3854514 - 03/01/05 11:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

You must be a computer-baby. Sorry, I'm only a TV-baby and I didn't imprint your techno-etiquette. If you've attended to any of my other posts, you would be able to discern that "bully" really doesn't describe my on-screen persona. Perhaps, as I explained, there is my own explanation, not the one you are so determined to pin on me. But, if the big bad block letters hurt your sensibilities, I'm terribly sorry :blush:


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Offlinepopdewman
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3854891 - 03/02/05 12:47 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

i think it was kierkegaard, or one of the pseudonyms he wrote under that argued that faith seems to be a a choice. A choice to embrace life in its entireity, both the goods and the bads. This means that despair is also major part of faith. Kierkegaard argues that faith is a belief in the absurd.. it leads to what reason points to as contradictions. however its this absurdness that allows faith to go beyond reason. It's an understanding and an appreciation for any given moment to be as it is. Good or bad. When one has chosen faith, one sees the universal and can truly appreciate life, and find harmony and contentness with any situation.

or something along those lines..


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3854999 - 03/02/05 01:20 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

soon we won't even need to create the label of faith.  if we are in surrender, and we wrap ourselves and everyone else in acceptance, then the definition won't matter anymore.  the need will be gone.

As I look back, I see how useful it was to have that weight on my shoulders though, and it still is in a lot of ways.  its where the learning process really talkes hold.  and you're right, the variation between what you want and what reality gives will be greater the more you assume and the less you accept.

when you talk about things going our way, it is only the definition the we have of "our way" that is in our minds.  the less you assume and the mroe you accept, the less you are going to be concerned about "your way"

enlightenment in this case: to lighten the load :shrug: :grin:

say I'm driving, and I hit a red light,in fact I hit EVERY red light on the street.  if I have an assumption about the way things should be, then every red light will result in a possible negative emotional response. If I am not accepting of the red light, the same happens. 

If I don't expect to at least hit one green light, and I accept every red light, then my way is gone, and there is only what happened. 

what happened is what happened, that is no way but the way

good and bad go away for reality holds no emotion to it. 

acceptence and surrender..i like it!  :thumbup:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: kaiowas]
    #3855516 - 03/02/05 03:35 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

But faith (so as I have found out to be,) is so much more than that....  Now, I am not even gonna~ pretent to think that I am some expert on all of this, as I am not....  I just know how it was before....  I LIVED by the "philosophy" of:

"Hope for the best, and expect the worse, that way you can never be disappointed..."

Nothing was ever really *wrong* before, as I 100% and COMPLETELY surrendered to my surroundings -just like you had said....  LOGICALLY, I had no other choice anyways....  :shrug:    ....    I am in my mid 30s, and I have lived with this "theory" that there could not be anything more than what I saw and what I knew about for at least 5-6 years now as it pondered thru my mind every once in a while....  (I ain't just saying that beause of my experience the other night either....  :noway: :smirk: )  I submitted to life's ways a long long time ago....  I was happy before....  I was ME, and I was one of many of the BILLIONS of people that are "happy" to be them....    I am not just making it up either, you can read ANY of the post I have ever made, and you can see my tone and "character of mood" from my words....  As I would expect that not a whole lot of people read my posts, I wouldn't expect that anybody would go back and look.... SSssoooooooo,  you will have to have faith that I am telling you the truth....  :wink:    Or not, your not really reading this....  :grin:

Being happy before, it has changed so much now....  I can say that I feel so alive right now that I am/feel 100% better now in "spirit"....  And logically, that makes no sense at all....  :confused:  I usually (unless I am fucked up :wink: -every once in a great while), am pretty good at math, I am observant, and think in *creative* ways....  Just simply put, "the way I do things"....    (:lol: the RIGHT way...!!!  :lol: )  J/K....  :tongue:  It is not at all my intentions at pointing at myself in front of you to lift myself up above anyone, - not at all....  There are MANY people here that are so friggin clever, or know their shit about a handfull of different things -- MANY people I admire here for many different reasons, many different shades of the rainbow....  I really do love that about this place....  I always "saw myself" as a Joe Shlub with a pocketful of knowledge, shining a certain color out according to my "mood -o- the day",  with life working out to about 90% of it to being pretty damn good....  I have had a few rough spots, but it has been pretty good for a few years now....    No complaints at all....    I had accepted and surrendered to life, thinking I had "figured "IT" ALLLLLLL out".... 

I ain't trying to convert no one, not my intents at all, I am just speaking my words for if anyone wishes to listen....  I would need to understand all of this first before I could pretend to give advise on it, plus, I am not a pushy person in any way....  I am perfectly fine with anybody believing in whatever they choose....  As *most* people that I hang out with NEVER once pushed their beliefs at me unless I asked....  There was one person that I asked not to be so pushy when in confidence so as to not cause a ruckus....  I wanted to get to know the PERSON behind the belief that was being forced at me....  That is MUCH more interesting sometimes, plus you get to observe their charactor for a little while as you get to know them, so as you know weather or not you want to understand about their beliefs....  :smile:    This particular person turned out to be no exception to that idea....    :heart:    I am glad I "took the time"....

kaiowas,
When I drive to work now, and when I hit a redlight, not only do I accept the fact that I have to stop and sit -as I always did, but NOW I am actually HAPPY to get the chance to sit there for a moment and look around and observe "what is happening"....  Looking at the colors of the sky in the morning, the shape of the clouds, the people around me....  100% AWARENESS to everything I can see and understand -and I do it with a freakin smile on my face, :lol: out of some sort of strong feeling of content -in every breath....  I used to HATE mornings....  I had not been to work ON TME for at least 3-4 years now, no kidding....  :eek:  My boss accepted it, as did I that I was allowed to be 1/2 hour'ish late without a phone call, after that I just had to call and listen to a little grumbling....  No problemo~, they can't fire me, what they gonna~ do....?  :shake:  How fuggin inconsiderate of me to not even conSIDER that they DEPEND on me to do my job, and be there on time....  I was letting the "friends" I work with down, as they "lead" by example of doing the "right thing", and put up with my shit because they "had" to....  :frown:

I was there on time last Monday for the first time....  Unfortunately, I was late yesterday because of all the snow I didn't know we were getting....  BUT, I was only 10-15mins late snow, ice and all, and that beat any of the last years start times for sure....!    The crazy thing of all is that  I WANT TO BE THERE ON TIME....!!???    :wtf:  ???        The other crazy/funny/unexpected thing is that it has not changed in intensity sinse the moment it I Experienced "FAITH"....  I didn't just surrender to life, I surrendered to Faith....  Why that would make SO MUCH difference, I have no CLUE in the world....    There are no "logical" ways for me to be able to explain it.... 

Holy bat crap, that got long...!!!!    I dunno~, I guess that I am rambling, A MUCHO~ LOTTA~....!  :lol:  :blah: :blah: :blah:

I dunno~, I have always heard the phraze "Stop and smell the roses"....    The thing is, you don't have to stop, ya~ just have to smell the roses....  You can do it every second of the day if you want....  in every breath you take....  :shrug:  I know, I know, whenever I say some happy shit like that, someone calls me a hippy....!  :lol: :tongue2:


ME....


:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3855682 - 03/02/05 04:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

jc, first i gotta say i like what your saying, the defrence between faith and blind faith is very good food for thought and i'll defanitly meditate on that thought, and share it with some people who i've been talking and i've been trying to explain my "faith", it's funny how i've been trying to say/think something and than someone here says exactly what i've been looking for, you put it into words you could say.

and phantomcat, i said before i'll say it again, you words are art, real eye candy, i get sucked into you post, almost hypnotizing, like a lava lamp + a book of poetry, put together, I love it, i have a real short attention span (too much tv.) and i'm a little slow in the head (too much cough syrup.) and yet i can read your entire post and know exactly what your talking about, and i agree with it, makes sence to me. you ashould write books. keep it up.  :thumbup:


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3855919 - 03/02/05 07:38 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)



Great classic rock!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: popdewman]
    #3856048 - 03/02/05 09:01 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I guess if you call it reliance upon the absurd or surrender or alternate to belief you may be agreeing that doing faith means stopping questioning and getting on with life.

and MarkostheGnostic, maybe I am born-again tv(1951)/computer baby, die daily baby, skip the caps baby; but you must admit the capslock has a long rap as well as a bad rap and I kinda like the anti-BS analogy about getting inflamed when the CAPITALS infect my eyes.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3856217 - 03/02/05 10:07 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Hey mang! I just wanted to respond to you this time and let you know that I DO read your posts, even if I don't respond. I didn't respond to the first one, so i thought I'd throw that out there for you.

Like JCoke said, your posts are intriguingly written. I think the only reason I don't respond to them is because by the time you're done there's nothing left to be said. :wink:

I can totally relate to the work thang... I got the same deal here. I can be late, and no one really cares... so it's gotten to the point where I have to have the willpower to just get my ass up and get here even though I know I could lie in bed for another half-hour.

P.S. Where are you located? Cuz the snow made me late yesterday too.. hehe. I'm in Mass.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JCoke]
    #3856224 - 03/02/05 10:11 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JCoke said:
jc, first i gotta say i like what your saying, the defrence between faith and blind faith is very good food for thought and i'll defanitly meditate on that thought, and share it with some people who i've been talking and i've been trying to explain my "faith", it's funny how i've been trying to say/think something and than someone here says exactly what i've been looking for, you put it into words you could say.





Hey bud! I'm really glad you said that! You're like the third or fourth person who's told me that this post has helped them to understand something they've been trying to think through.

I'm so glad it's helping... I came up with this concept after trying to integrate an experience I had on mushrooms this past weekend. Somehow I "knew" this had to be posted... and now I know why. :smile:

Another perfect example of following the street signs on the road of life, and being led to solutionary situations. :smile:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: kaiowas]
    #3856236 - 03/02/05 10:15 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
enlightenment in this case: to lighten the load 





Awesome! I absolutely love how words we take for granted can be broken down into their basic components and reveal their true meaning in the process!

Here's another good one: Forgive. :smile: The fore indicates that it is something to be given BEFORE error is made in the first place.

There's tons of words that we can do this to.. it's great.

Without... commonly interpretted as to mean "lacking"... but it can also mean the opposite of within. :smile:

Fun times with words... hehe.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3857058 - 03/02/05 01:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

> the difference between what you mean when you say "have faith" versus "embody faith".

I'm not sure that it is something I can put into words... kind of like asking what does blue smell like?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: Seuss]
    #3857229 - 03/02/05 02:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Okay... I'm not really sure how that's like asking what blue smells like, but if you can't you can't. *shrug*


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3857308 - 03/02/05 03:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

"There's tons of words that we can do this to.. it's great."

can do it with, all..
it is the 'language of light'. (got no clue why i make this post)
..now run along :wink:

"Have no faith, in Having faith"
-Unknown :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: Gomp]
    #3857342 - 03/02/05 03:08 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Is imo about as negligible as warm water and luke warm water... All in the eyes of the beholder, or rather in our case in the mind. What's the difference between a zealot and a fanatic? (None really) The lines are blurred, don't be overly dogmatic, think for yourself and don't let others interpret religious texts for you.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3861634 - 03/03/05 11:01 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

trying to penetrate the mysteries by using linguistical references is not a bad approach expecially since what is being examined is the meaning of a word - "Faith".

so we can look at the habit of usage ot two related phrases:
"in good faith" and "in bad faith"

The first refers to a presentation that presumably relates to a train of events and circumstances in which what has been done along the way has been healthful to the presenter and the presentee.

The second refers to a presentation that presumably relates to a train of malevalent events and circumstances.

In both cases the term Faith relates to qualifying the track that the approaching train of events followed.

I like to think of it as a bridge or a track on a bridge which is how I would use it in any case to refer to the magical effort taken as a person bridges some gap in understanding and carries on his/her train of events or thought.

blind faith may be a peak from the side windows as the train passes over a magic bridge that had not been there a minute ago, and one can see nothing sensible.

or it may be a judgement against the traveller who uses such trains that pass over the void as if it were nothing.


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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3865931 - 03/04/05 02:39 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed, indeed.

A Ninja once said here recently: ?Faith [defined as letting go] is enlightenment?.
For ?letting go? is a process which involves releasing all forms of clinging [read: beliefs], and that also includes letting go of the mind.
When this takes place, all which is left is the simple reality of facts and observations imbued with childlike innocence, or ?Being-cognition? as Maslow depicts in the Farther Reaches of Human Nature.

The part that most people don?t like to hear, is that such ?letting go? involves the good just as much as the bad. Of course they are both equally illusory, yet people often try to have their cake and eat it too, as they think: ?hmm, okay from now on I will no longer attach myself to any beliefs that are of a negative caliber. [Example: ?The individual who just abruptly cut in front of my vehicle is an impolite and inconsiderate bastard!?]?. Neglecting the fact that ?bad things? actually happen because other things are being labeled as ?good?.
?They ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.?

In other words, because people are ?walking? on their own conceptual ground [ground of concepts/beliefs] of what they subjectively perceive to be ?good?, they are constantly subject to insecurity, for the world and it?s unfolding of reality is constantly changing and ever-fleeting. They expect stability from what is naturally unstable. Subtle insanity?

Directed to anyone who may answer:
Can you go about your life, without looking at events, situations, and things through screens of ?Good vs Bad?, or any other such dualistic thinking? If you can, then you will have genuine, inner peace. Even if only for one day, or one lifetime.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3866881 - 03/04/05 10:06 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


They expect stability from what is naturally unstable. Subtle insanity?





Hahahaha... for real...

Quote:


Directed to anyone who may answer:
Can you go about your life, without looking at events, situations, and things through screens of ?Good vs Bad?, or any other such dualistic thinking? If you can, then you will have genuine, inner peace. Even if only for one day, or one lifetime.





I am learning to do this. Sometimes I still find myself labeling thing reactively, but I've gotten to the point where I stop myself in that same moment and say "No... things simply are as they are.. not good or bad, they just are."


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3945245 - 03/20/05 06:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Faith could be simple-minded, trusting, blind faith, or it could be definite confidence which cannot be destroyed. Blind faith has no inspiration. It is very naive. It is not creative, though not exactly destructive. It is not creative because your faith and yourself have never made any connection, any communication. You just blindly accepted the whole belief, very naively.

In the case of faith as confidence, there is a living reason to be confident. You do not expect that there will be a prefabricated solution mysteriously presented to you. You work with existing situations without fear, without any doubt about involving yourself. This approach is extremely creative and positive. If you have definite confidence, you are so sure of yourself that you do not have to check yourself. It is absolute confidence, real understanding of what is going on now, therefore you do not hesitate to follow other paths or deal in whatever way is necessary with each new situation.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: The difference between Faith and Blind Faith. [Re: egghead1]
    #3945394 - 03/20/05 07:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well said egghead! :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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