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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: laserpig]
    #10269106 -

laserpig said:
I think the idea that the universe has fractaline structure holds up to and is in fact reinforced by all of the analysis I've thrown at it, and that is why it's what I believe.


What kind of analysis have you thrown at it?

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10269158 -

Qubit said:
laserpig said:
I think the idea that the universe has fractaline structure holds up to and is in fact reinforced by all of the analysis I've thrown at it, and that is why it's what I believe.


What kind of analysis have you thrown at it?


Damn what Richard Dawkins or Stephen Hawking think.

If "Laserpig" has analyzed it, I'm on board.

Laserpig, lead me to a place to where they don't make maps. :lol:


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10269323 -

Something I think should be made clear is that I am not intending my statement about fractaline structure to be interpreted as any kind of philosophical "truth," and I'm not making any claims about its implications. All I claim is that I have observed a pattern and found it to be widespread and interesting enough to be worth continuing investigation.

I've spent a decent amount of time over the past several months learning about chaotic systems and fractaline structures (which are so intertwined conceptually that I'm not sure they're actually separate phenomenon). There are certain common principles and behaviors in everything which science has identified as chaotic or fractaline. Without you being familiar with chaos theory, I have to admit that I'm not sure how I can communicate these principles to you. I'd essentially have to teach you chaos theory, which apart from being nearly impossible to do through forum posts is also probably beyond my ability at this point. Nonetheless, I'll do my best to give you the gist of my thinking.

Chaotic behavior has certain characteristics -- extreme sensitivity on past conditions is one such characteristic (the "butterfly effect" idea is a slightly hyperbolic but conceptually accurate example of this), behavior that never settles into one stable equilibrium and stays there is another, and ever-compounding complexity which exists only at certain thresholds is one more. Ecosystems are an excellent, and hopefully approachable, example of unstable equilibrium conditions. It's been known for some time now in ecosystem biology that population behavior is in some senses fundamentally unpredictable -- it follows certain patterns, and it can settle into apparent equilibriums for relatively long periods of time, but there is an enormous degree of apparent randomness. Populations can spike one year, then stay steady for a while, then waver inexplicably for several years, all without any clear cause. This is a fundamental attribute of chaotic complexity. Turbulence, which shows up in any fluid system and can be used to describe the behaviors of many different physical systems, is the textbook example of compounding complexity at threshold conditions. It's possible for the water in a stream to flow smoothly around a rock at, say, 1.5 miles per hour -- but should the flow speed increase by a tiny fraction, and if 1.5 mph is sufficiently close to the threshold speed, the water suddenly becomes turbulent behind the rock. What had been simple behavior, linear flow, becomes so complex that to this day we can barely model it on supercomputers.

I apologize if that's unclear or unhelpful -- I'm sure there are more approachable concrete examples of chaotic behavior, but none are coming to mind. Suffice it to say, chaotic behavior is everywhere, and that's how people discovered it in the first place. That's how all science is discovered -- by observing things which are real. Since chaos theory is apparently everywhere, it seems eminently logical that chaos theory should influence everything. And if chaos theory influences everything, the whole world ... then it's impossible to conclude anything but that the world is of fractaline, chaotic structure. If anyone else has anything else to add (Zanthius, it seems like your opinion is similar to mine, right?), please do so. I'm certain that I'm not communicating my thinking here very clearly.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: Zanthius]
    #10269402 -

Zanthius said:
http://www.fractal.org/Bewustzijns-Besturings-Model/The-Infinite-Fractal-Universe.pdf


This is a pretty good pdf for something 2 pages long. It's a little speculative, I think, in terms of what's outside the bounds of the known universe but I agree with the concepts it looks to be getting at.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: laserpig]
    #10269726 -

Quote:
Without you being familiar with chaos theory, I have to admit that I'm not sure how I can communicate these principles to you. I'd essentially have to teach you chaos theory, which apart from being nearly impossible to do through forum posts is also probably beyond my ability at this point.


Dont assume Im ignorant of chaos theory; I have a degree in physics so I do know a bit about it.  :wink:

edit - remember that though chaos is exhibited all around us, that doesnt make it fractal like or self similar.  Though all fractals do exhibit chaos, all choas is not fractal like.

Edited by Qubit (05/01/09 06:36 PM)

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10269848 -

I apologize for assuming ignorance on your part -- if you think you know anything I don't, which sounds quite likely to be the case, please do share. My understanding is pretty rudimentary, and most of it has been cobbled together myself -- which always tends to create discrepancies between personal and more widely-accepted understanding.

My approach to building an understanding of the world has been heavily based on my own intuition -- which is something I trust, but not something conducive to useful communication or traditional analysis. If you have any resources or information to share with me, I can only assume that they would either A: relieve me of misconceptions or B: give me a framework in which to explain my thinking. Either would be appreciated.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: laserpig]
    #10270022 -

.

Edited by DieCommie (11/16/16 12:10 PM)

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10270085 -

Quote:
I see claims of the fractal nature of the universe often in the mystical forum, and occasionally in here and the science forum.  I usually respond the same way, with cynical/skeptical questions about evidence.  Usually the responses involve pictures of broccoli, swirling galaxies and the mandelbrot set.  To me thats just a superficial, ad-hoc visual similarity of shape; like seeing a face on the moon.  But no real quantitative or qualitative model of nature using fractals is ever give (of course, because there is none).


LOL

To your cynical and skeptical questions... LOL .. is all i have to say.

Do your research buddy..
Nature doesnt use fractals.. it is fractal - in nature


Plenty of evidence out there. Precise measurements.. you can be a skeptic all you want..
This - is fact.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: jivJaN]
    #10270147 -

Thats very convincing dude.  :rolleyes:

I dont think you even know what a fractal is.  Nature is a fractal?  No, that is not how it is defined.  A fractal is a recursive complex equation plotted on the argand plane - that is not nature, that is a man made mathematical construct.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10270188 -

Go outside.. look at a tree.
If you dont see the pattern..
Then you dont even know what your looking for..

Btw.. i didnt say nature is a fractal - it is fractal in its nature.
Confusing .. i know.. but i didnt make up this language.

trees.. veins.. water .. mountains..leaves.. everything in nature follows this pattern.

They chopped down a big tree.. they measured all the little branches and what not.
It follows this equation.
There are claims that even the heartbeat follows this pattern.

Everything is fractalish

..


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: jivJaN]
    #10270204 -

Quote:
They chopped down a big tree.. they measured all the little branches and what not.
It follows this equation.
There are claims that even the heartbeat follows this pattern.


Yea, I saw that NOVA episode too...

Quote:
Everything is fractalish


Ahh, a retreat!

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10270212 -

Quote:
Ahh, a retreat!


I must.

Your arguments are too strong.

Quote:
(of course, because there is none)



--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10270789 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
It's a pun, dearie. My first ever. :sun:


OrgoneConclusion is punny! :yesnod:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10270883 -

I studied fractal geometry several years ago, and it seems to me a very good way to describe nature.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10272590 -

C.M. Mann said:
I studied fractal geometry several years ago, and it seems to me a very good way to describe nature.


Well, if the universe IS a fractal, then there is just as much inside of my body as outside of my body. There is just as much inside of an electron, as outside of an electron. For the electron contains an infinite amount of universes inside of itself, if the universe is a fractal.

Personally I don't believe that there is anything smaller than a Planck unit of space, but we can't know for certain that there isn't an infinite amount of universes inside of an electron.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: Zanthius]
    #10272944 -

Quote:
but we can't know for certain that there isn't an infinite amount of universes inside of an electron.


The way I see it, Bell's Theorem does certainly show that isnt the case.  There arnt an infinite amount of universes in an electron because that would require hidden variables.  If my interpretation here is wrong, I would love for someone to set me straight.

If fractals can describe nature it not directly by noting that things look like fractals - but that some of the chaos in nature can be modeled with fractals.

C.M. Mann - Ill try to check my cynicism and sarcasm.  What aspects of nature can be described with fractals?  Qualitative or quantitative, descriptive or predictive - any type of description.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: DieCommie]
    #10273138 -

I don't know what bell's theorem means, and I tried- I'll look again later, but I do know that folks often make presumptions like you reply to and forget that size isn't neccearily simply a relative concept with no difference between a universe composed of small electrons and universes composed of large electrons (the electron being the metric used previously)

As an example:
A sphere's volume increases faster than its surface area as its radius gets larger.    If size is all relative, how can that be?  Shouldn't the charecterisitcs of a sphere be linearly proportional to its radius?  Well they aren't, and neither are other components of our universe. 



As a real example, if our universe were but an electron in some other universe much larger than our own, the cells in that universe would be very large compared to our own.  Their volume would be huge,  But their surface area would be proportionately much smaller- the surface area to volume ratio would be much, much, smaller then in our universe.  This would mean life as we know it could not exist in that universe- size isn't just relative.  The diffusion of needed molecules would take far too long and the membrane would be far too small relative to the huge volume of the cell to transport the needed molecules and other products.


Just one example.  If you increase the scale things don't neccesarily change linearly or proportionatly to other relevant things.  The same problem is encountered in reverse if we're talking about small universes too.

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Re: God is like a hologram. [Re: johnm214]
    #10273614 -

To say that the entire universe follows our strict definition of a pared-down, mathematically pure fractal is to expect too much of nature ... or perhaps to expect too much of our mathematics.

Either way I think it's jumping to a conclusion which, as Qubit seems to be saying, just ain't convincing. But pretty much every plant species is strikingly fractaline in structure -- I realize that the rules governing genetic expression in plants may seem to have nothing to do with the rules governing, I dunno, let's say electric charge, but I want to make a point about the "infinite scalability" thing. A plant is fractaline, but it does not have infinite surface area. It does not compound down to infinitely small scales, and the volume inside it is not infinite. Fractaline form can be expressed in a finite system. It may not be a mathematically perfect fractal, but to deny fractaline structure would be to ignore what's staring us right in the face.

To expect infinite scalability and self-similarity from everyday objects would be to forget something I feel is quite important to remember -- infinity comes up a lot in math, where we're used to seeing fractals, but when you actually look for it in nature it's damn scarce. Nature strives for infinity in many, many circumstances but because we're talking about real physical systems, actually attaining it is impossible.

I feel like the plant is a good example to continue working with. A plant is fractaline, but it doesn't scale infinitely down. Eventually you hit the individual cells and the pattern stops, you're at the base unit. Yet that doesn't mean the structure of how these units interrelate is not fractaline! To me it makes sense that the universe would be fundamentally the same -- you get down to that Planck length  and the pattern stops beause you've hit the bottom -- but that doesn't mean everything above that level isn't still fractaline.

What I mean when I say the world appears fractaline is this: phenomenon don't seem to ever stop compounding in complexity. Emergent behavior stacks on emergent behavior and never, never stops. It's extremely easy to imagine that after the first generation of stars in the universe, nothing would've happened afterward except more stars. But that's not what happened, complexity was compounded. We got heavy elements. Complexity kept compounding 'til you got earth, then instead of stopping there the complexity continued to compound 'til we had simple life ... which continues to compound and now there's us. I don't think this process will ever stop -- I don't think there's any complexity cap. In that sense, this fractal really is infinite. What about self-similarity? Well, I think its there, but not in the strict sense of how we see it in the Mandelbrot set. We merely see recurring patterns and themes.



On mysticism:

Quote:
I try to do the opposite to understand the world, and try to leave my intuition out of it (as much as possible).  Intuition has been proven wrong many times, and often two smart people will have a different intuitions.  Trusting in intuition over traditional analysis is the method of mysticism I think.  I suppose that is why I label this fractal universe idea as mysticism.


Going by intuition alone is not fundamentally different from just making shit up. But if you try to build an understanding of the world purely through the brute-force methods of logic, you can hit stumbling blocks which'll stymie you for quite a while. Intuition, I feel, is perfectly valid thought ... it's just not complete thought. It's still your brain crunching the numbers you know and spitting out an idea, it's just not such a conscious, lockstep process. If you don't then check that idea against logic you can get led quite astray, but in general I think we shouldn't distrust our intuition just because the source of the ideas isn't immediately obvious.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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