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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10121337 -

Review from Publishers Weekly:

Quote:
Above all, British authors Desmond ( The Hot-Blooded Dinosaurs ) and Moore, the editorial consultant to Cambridge University's Darwin Letters Project, plunge readers into the controversies of the era as parson-hating biologist Thomas Henry Huxley, socialist Alfred Russell Wallace, free-market capitalists and radical atheists bent Darwinism to their own purposes.



Or aren't authors allowed to frame the politico-societal framework of the time?


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10121348 -

From another review:

Quote:
The authors avoid any kind of retrospective analysis at all and their account of Darwin's life and work is strictly chronological.



Need more?


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10121355 -

Nope, you've proved your point :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10122856 -

There's an interesting argument here that you and I can look at together.  As I read this book, I understand my understanding of science, its pitfalls and its tremendous accomplishments, which, regardless of my comments earlier about being only fit to produce toaster ovens, are fairly obvious.  I am using a computer, aren't I?  And while I don't trust Ruse very much (I've heard him speak), I place a slight amount of faith in him to give an objective (there's that word again) view, than, say, a Creationist.  Ruse is an evolutionist and a philosopher--in a sense, as I see it, the best of both possible worlds.  Each of us will have to decide whether he maintains his objectivity.

So far, I'm having a blast reading it.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10128201 -

Getting back on topic: having read some of the book, can you explain again why evolution is not a scientific theory? So far I haven't seen any reasons why it's not.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10128370 -

i dont really understand the subject anyways...
op must mean its not a proven fact cuz anything can be theory

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10128572 -

zouden said:
Getting back on topic: having read some of the book, can you explain again why evolution is not a scientific theory? So far I haven't seen any reasons why it's not.



The title was just a bait and switch, zouden, and so was the article I think.  Whoever the author was, she was a little prejudiced I think.

I'm going to lay the foundation for the book soon, e.g. its premises etc.  That way more people will get more out of it.

What have you read and what was your opinion?  I'm finding I like Popper more than Kuhn though I still respect each of them in different ways.  Perhaps that's because I'm an objectivist realist.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10130931 -

No I haven't read it, I just asked for your thoughts now that you have read some. My sentence was perhaps somewhat ambiguous.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10136693 -

So far it seems Ruse defends evolution.  That shouldn't come as a shock as that is his belief.  But basically, the more important issue is how we view science.

Two principle philosophers come into play:  Karl Popper and Thomas Kuhn.

From the book:

Quote:
In order to understand Popper's philosophy--and from now on I shall present the mature position, ignoring developments, debts and other sidelights--it is best to go straight to its heart and to the fact that Popper was determinably and absolutely a realist.  This is one of those terms which can mean anything to anybody, as can its opposite, idealist, so let me say that for Popper at a very minimum realism mean that the world exists and that it exists in some way independent of us.  Trees really do fall in the forests when no one is around to hear them.  They would do so even if no humans had ever existed past, present, or future.  The aim of science is to map reality; Popper speaks often of science as a "net" which tries to capture reality in its folds.



Quote:
The key concept in Kuhn's sparkling volume is that of a paradigm.  As friend and foe and pointed out many times, Kuhn means different things by this term at different times in the book.  But the chief sense is that of a work or body of work which captures scientific imagination--which commands allegiance from a group of workers and provides tasks for them to undertake (Kuhn 1962, 10):

    Aristotle's Physica, Ptolemy's Almagest, Newton's Principia and Optiks, Franklin's Electricity, Lavoisier's Chemistry, and Lyell's Geology--these and many other works served for a time implicitly to define the legitimated problems and methods of a research field for succeeding generations.  They were able to do so because they shared two essential characteristics.  Their achievement was sufficiently unprecedented to attract an enduring group of adherents away from competing modes of scientific activity.  Simultaneously, it was sufficiently open-ended to leave all sorts of problems for the redefined group of practitioners to resolve.
    Achievements that share these two characteristics I shall henceforth refer to as "paradigms," a term that relates closely to "normal science."  By choosing it, I mean to suggest that some accepted examples of actual scientific practice--examples which include law, theory, application, and instrumentation together--provide models from which spring particular coherent traditions of scientific research.


Science which does not have a paradigm is properly considered immature.  It is in a "preparadigmatic state."  Once a paradigm has been found, then people can set to work--for Kuhn, science is as deeply a dynamic process as it is for Popper.  The paradigm sets the rules, it gives challenges, it marks out limits, and much more: it gives rise to "normal science."  This is the science that most scientists do all of their lives all of the time.  It is science where--and this is absolutely crucial for Kuhn--the paradigm is taken as a given, not to be challenged.  It is, in a sense, derivative or clean-up work.  "No part of the aim of science to invent new theories, and they are often intolerant of those invented by others" (24).  When you are working within the paradigm, there is nothing outside the picture.



Now, I don't know about you, but I have found both quotes to be fairly accurate.  This is what I meant by agreeing with both Popper and Kuhn.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10136815 -

IMO if humans weren't also considered part of the evolutionary process most every one would have accepted it long ago and been done with it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Icelander]
    #10136845 -

Of course that's the case.  We don't care nearly as much about the origins of the Pygmy Goat as we do ourselves.  This is because, at the root of it, studies in origins bear striking similarity to religion.  That's because they are religion.

Consider this statement from a well known evolutionist:

Quote:
The cosmos is all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be.



Is that a scientific statement of fact, or mere philosophical conjecture?


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10136869 -

Yeah I agree it's religious bullshit. Which is what makes being scientific such a hard road to travel. Personal desire and bias are all along the road. You have to know yourself quite well and be comfortable with that to be a good scientist IMO.

and it will never be perfect.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Icelander]
    #10136902 -

You sound exactly like the philosopher of science, Thomas Kuhn, to me.  Popper, who I admire immensely, drives a harder line.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10136925 -

Does this mean you don't admire me?:hissyfit:

I am not well read in this field and have no idea who those lads are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10137299 -

Quote:
We don't care nearly as much about the origins of the Pygmy Goat



Do not slight the pygmy goat! :nonono:


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10137723 -

:lol:

Don't misunderstand.  I admire you more than most for your shockingly, tactless candor.  I find it refreshing.

And don't feel bad about not knowing who those guys are.  Most people, including those that rely on science to bolster their epistemic, philosophic views have no idea either.  I've spent over a quarter of a century tackling these problems and still feel as if I am only on the first rung of the ladder.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10140081 -

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
The cosmos is all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be.



Is that a scientific statement of fact, or mere philosophical conjecture?





You do this quite a bit.


Your whole objection to some portions of what is commonly called science is that people make conclusions that are not fully supportable by the existing data.  Ok, but this isn't supposed to be infallibale as science is sometimes taken to be.  It is purposely a hypothesis rather than a statement of scientific dogma.


And the statement you question, what of it?  You can of course not ay something is fact, like that.  Of course we don't have knowledge of what the future is going to be, we can only base it on the past, and so obviously we can make presumptions that are wrong.


Quote:
We don't care nearly as much about the origins of the Pygmy Goat as we do ourselves.  This is because, at the root of it, studies in origins bear striking similarity to religion.  That's because they are religion.




What is religion in this context?


I don't understand how you are using this word to say that studies toward the origin of a species or life is religion.



How is mixing shit in  a vat and seeing what comes about religion?  How is digging  up a fossil religion?



Again, your observations all seem premised upon some shock that when people take scientific data and make hypothesises that these hypothesises can be wrong.  No kidding.  This is supposed to be the case, and has nothing to do with the validity of of conclusions drawn with relativly certain presumptions or relativly direct measurements.

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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: johnm214]
    #10140658 -

johnm214 said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
The cosmos is all there is, all there ever was, and all there ever will be.



Is that a scientific statement of fact, or mere philosophical conjecture?





You do this quite a bit.



Do what?


Quote:
Your whole objection to some portions of what is commonly called science is that people make conclusions that are not fully supportable by the existing data.  Ok, but this isn't supposed to be infallibale as science is sometimes taken to be.  It is purposely a hypothesis rather than a statement of scientific dogma.



Hypotheses are one thing, laws are another and theories still another.  I have many objections but I don't understand your point.


Quote:
And the statement you question, what of it?  You can of course not ay something is fact, like that.  Of course we don't have knowledge of what the future is going to be, we can only base it on the past, and so obviously we can make presumptions that are wrong.



My statement?  Which one?


Quote:
Quote:
We don't care nearly as much about the origins of the Pygmy Goat as we do ourselves.  This is because, at the root of it, studies in origins bear striking similarity to religion.  That's because they are religion.



What is religion in this context?

I don't understand how you are using this word to say that studies toward the origin of a species or life is religion.

How is mixing shit in  a vat and seeing what comes about religion?  How is digging  up a fossil religion?



From the Greeks and before many religions have an origin myth.  Evolution, in that sense, is no different.  Please notice I said a striking similarity.

Quote:
Again, your observations all seem premised upon some shock that when people take scientific data and make hypothesises that these hypothesises can be wrong.  No kidding.  This is supposed to be the case, and has nothing to do with the validity of of conclusions drawn with relativly certain presumptions or relativly direct measurements.



A worse mischaracterization of my thought could scarcely be found.


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Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10140676 -

>From the Greeks and before many religions have an origin myth.  Evolution, in that sense, is no different.  Please notice I said a striking similarity.

How on earth is the theory of evolution 'no different' from an origin myth?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Why evolution isn't a scientific theory. [Re: zouden]
    #10140707 -

Quote:
Evolution, in that sense, is no different.



Both are similar in that both attempt to explain our origins, as does the Bible, as does Native American legends, as does the Koran, et cetera, et cetera ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Did I really need to explain that?


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