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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9879552 -

:bitch:

Quote:
The point of the argument is that the act of us being able to be aware of the external world allows it to be there. 


Did the earth exist before observers arrived? Yes or no.


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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9879561 -

If you say so, I was just trying to ask this knowledgeable person a few questions.  He told me I needed education.  I should like to know what I need to learn, I hope he tells me.

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9879589 -

I'm with Cognitive_Shift here. Quantum mechanics says that until you observe something, it can be in multiple states. Once you observe it, it collapses into one state, yet to anyone else, it's still in multiple states, and so are you now. This last point is very important.

The whole thing is set up in such a way that it's all irrelevant, of course. You can't exploit the multiple-states thing. It makes no difference to the rest of physics. The only reason we have this (seemingly nonsensical) theory is because it's required for certain sections of quantum physics.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: xFrockx]
    #9879601 -

Oh, it wasn't for you.

It's just how it looks. You and him and that other guy, and maybe other ones.

To Orgone: "Earth" is a judgment in itself, "earth" didn't exist. Earth is even a simplification without going into physics.

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: zouden]
    #9879612 -

"it can be in multiple states"

Do these states really exist, or do they just make math easier/more correct?

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9879674 -

As too frock "He told me I needed education.  I should like to know what I need to learn, I hope he tells me."  I didn't tell you, you needed to be educated i said that you should take a class to present a good argument.  If your pissed that i called you out for not having a good argument, you should have had a good agrument:shrug:  Don't get offended when you provide poor evidence.  Now if we can get this emotional junk out of the way and get down to intellectual conversation that was intended with the creation of this thread.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9879730 -

I don't understand why people kept saying that i was wrong, when they didn't refute my argument in anyway shape or form. 

My argument was: "According to quantum mechanics with out an observer there would just be this expanding super position of possibilities with nothing definite ever actually happening." 

If you don't agree give me a scientific argument relating to the material of my argument so i can see where your coming from.  "WAS THE EARTH THERE BEFORE AN OBSERVER" is not a good argument, and has more to do with Newtonian physics than quantum mechanics.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9879734 -

Huh?

Seems you are unable to answer any of my simple and direct questions.


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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9879748 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Huh?

Seems you are unable to answer any of my simple and direct questions.


Which have nothing to do with the intentions of my conversation at all.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9879749 -

"Huh?

Seems you are unable to answer any of my simple and direct questions. "

That's what I'm saying.  I think he wants us to write a book for him.  But I think he will read me saying that and think I am dismissing him.  Oh man, is he too far gone? I hope not.

Cognitive, repeat after me:

I don't know.

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: xFrockx]
    #9879757 -

Depends what you mean by 'really exist'. I say the do exist, but since they are irrelevant to most people, they may as well not exist.

When you're not observing a cat, it could be alive, dead, or a hamster, so in quantum physics we say that it exists in all those states at once. When you look at it, it becomes one of those states. The probability of each is different. If the cat was healthy, it's probably going to collapse into the 'alive' state. It's extremely unlikely that it'll become the 'hamster' state.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: zouden]
    #9879761 -

zouden said:
When you're not observing a cat, it could be alive, dead, or a hamster, so in quantum physics we say that it exists in all those states at once. When you look at it, it becomes one of those states. The probability of each is different. If the cat was healthy, it's probably going to collapse into the 'alive' state. It's extremely unlikely that it'll become the 'hamster' state.


Doesn't the cat observe itself, though?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9879775 -

Ok, maybe this will look more like your style:

If the universe exists because of observers, then the universe did not exist until observers existed.

Observers could not exist without the universe. (unsound?)

Therefore, the universe does not exist because of observers.

That's not formal by any means, but if you don't understand that then you just aren't reading, which I suspect highly.

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9879779 -

Quote:
"WAS THE EARTH THERE BEFORE AN OBSERVER" is not a good argument


It was a question and not an argument. Now I can see why we are having difficulty.

CS:
Quote:
The universe exists because we are observing it

.

Using logic the inverse must be true. The universe does not exist because we are not observing it. This does not make the slightest bit of sense unless you are using a circular argument.


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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9879809 -

And apparently he hasn't found out what Hume's problem of causation means for his title.  I wasn't going to rely on that though, because I don't know, :laugh:

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: xFrockx]
    #9879846 -

I did anwser though, are my answers so unvaluable? : (

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: xFrockx]
    #9879853 -

If I stop reading this thread will it (thankfully) disappear?


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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: xFrockx]
    #9879869 -

xFrockx said:
And apparently he hasn't found out what Hume's problem of causation means for his title.


Hume brought up an interesting point, but I don't quite see the relevance in discussing quantum physics.  Moreover, Kant adequately resolved any metaphysical difficulties that arise from the concept of the necessary.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: Kukaracha]
    #9879895 -

"I did anwser though, are my answers so unvaluable? : ( "

No, just not nearly as disagreeable as the conclusion in the title.  Do you agree with it?  Nothing you've said shows me you do.

Although I disagree on the causal foundation of the conclusion made above, I can understand how some people might interpret it with the idea that it means what you said earler, that we are limited to our brains.  I think that ultimately, that is a true statement, but the problem with it is the idea of "limitation."  I agree with you insofar as I think that all thoughts are true if looked at through the right lens, but I do not agree with the idea that the fact we have only our brains is "limiting"

but all I said there is just B.S.

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Re: The universe exists because we are observing it. [Re: deCypher]
    #9879919 -

"Hume brought up an interesting point, but I don't quite see the relevance in discussing quantum physics"

I may be mistaken, but I take Hume's point to mean that the idea that something happens "because" of something else is untenable because we cannot point to causes, events are not really seperate.

Edited by xFrockx (02/27/09 07:19 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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