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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9582657 -

So you are describing change. So if Time did not exist no change and no motion... no reality. Metaphysically no reality is contrary to logic which will be chaos. A chaotic Universe where motion is no motion and change is no change and life is no life (death). So… we are not alive… Then we resurrect and we are alive again because I like Time. Chaos exits. However, I know it.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9582668 -

Diaboleros said:
IMO, time doesn't exist. It's nothing but a concept of the human mind to better understand reality.


So are every other philosophical, scientific, pseudo-scientific and non-scientific concepts around. Sensory and less-sensory stuff exists whether you conceptualize it or not. Ripping time out of our conceptual map won't alter the territory it tries to represent.

Every more and less useful concept "exists" as part of a public discourse; the Phlogiston did "exist", so did the four elements, and so does time. From there it is only easy to commit a mind projection fallacy, starting from which every discussion about its "existence" is philosophically void.

There are several discourses, or frameworks in which time is understood. To bundle them all in on word, "time", is to beg for confusion and untold divergences between everyone's assumptions. Is it psychological time, philosophical time, or time as used in theories like quantum mechanics, thermodynamics or relativity, the three of those not being totally the same ? Since there is no integrating framework, it would be necessary to specify which "time" you're talking about.

Edited by deimya (01/10/09 02:37 PM)

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Recondicom]
    #9582713 -

Sure, time is a measure of change, but what I'm trying to point out here, is that outside our heads, outside our minds, there is no time. Time travel is impossible because there is only now.

So if all events happen all at once, how can you determine which event is the cause, and which event is the effect?

How can you determine weather thoughts trigger chemical reactions, or chemical reactions trigger thoughts?

I'm just saying the workings of the universe as most of us see it, matter causing thoughts, might be the other way around. Thoughts might be causing matter. What's your thoughts on this? If time didn't exist, doesn't that make cause and effect interchangeable? And doesn't that make it impossible to know weather thought is the effect or the cause?

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9582784 -

Spinoza. He thought that an object can also be described by its trajectory. There is no object but there is a trajectory.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: deimya]
    #9582824 -

deimya said:
Diaboleros said:
IMO, time doesn't exist. It's nothing but a concept of the human mind to better understand reality.


So are every other philosophical, scientific, pseudo-scientific and non-scientific concepts around. Sensory and less-sensory stuff exists whether you conceptualize it or not. Ripping time out of our conceptual map won't alter the territory it tries to represent.

Every more and less useful concept "exists" as part of a public discourse; the Phlogiston did "exist", so did the four elements, and so does time. From there it is only easy to commit a mind projection fallacy, starting from which every discussion about its "existence" is philosophically void.

There are several discourses, or frameworks in which time is understood. To bundle them all in on word, "time", is to beg for confusion and untold divergences between everyone's assumptions. Is it psychological time, philosophical time, or time as used in theories like quantum mechanics, thermodynamics or relativity, the three of those not being totally the same ? Since there is no integrating framework, it would be necessary to specify which "time" you're talking about.


Sure I get your point, but you don't get mine. I'm trying to point out we are treating time as if it is real. We are seriously asking ourselves the question weather time travel is possible. If we would truly realize time is nothing but a concept of the human mind, we wouldn't even start to ask this question... Most people assume time does exist outside of the mind, and most people assume time is more than just a concept of the human mind.

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9582978 -

I get your point too, only I think it's moot for several reasons :

"Time" as a scientific concept is ill-understood and has slightly different meanings in various branches of physics, biology, geology, etc. We assume it is the same because we haven't clearly disproved their mutual inconsistencies yet, a bit like the older debate about gravitational mass and inertial mass being the same or not.

Time travelling grew out of wishful thinking and mind projection fallacy from overenthusiastic people and physicist that made contact with general relativity.

Every concept is a human concept, time, energy, love, pickles and cheese wizz, only it's very easy to fall into solipsism, which is something you're bordering on.

So is the mind, although this concept and many others have the added feature of being very private, which means nobody knows what others are talking about. They are particularly empty containers floating in a language and culture.

People assuming "time" exists more than outside the "mind" are just like you who's assuming the stuff time could be made of "exist" more than outside the "mind" in addition that it seems to you it is meaningful of speaking of "mind".

While I agree that it would be very interesting to have a scientific theory from which time comes out as an emergent or composite phenomena, you would still be back at square one concerning the concepts and assumptions on top of which this more fundamental theory would be built upon, hence the whole never-ending and misleading business of asking what "exists", what doesn't, and the implications thereof.

Edited by deimya (01/10/09 03:20 PM)

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: deimya]
    #9583544 -

No you don't get my point at all. You haven't said a single word about cause and effect. We're completely talking on different pages here. I agree with everything you say, but it's completely irrelevant to what I'm trying to get to.

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9583638 -

Diaboleros said:
What if time didn't exist? If there is only now, there can be no time between cause and effect, making them appear to happen simultanously... so how can we tell them apart?

For example... how do you determine weather thoughts trigger chemical reactions, or chemical reactions trigger thoughts? If cause and effect happen simultanously because there is only now, there is no way to determine which one happened first, there is no way to determine weather chemical reactions are the cause or the effect of the thoughts!

So what's your take on it. Are thoughts the cause of everything, or the effect of everything?


I'm forced to come to the conclusion that thoughts and chemical reactions are merely different aspects of the same thing, and occur simultaneously.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9583720 -

Causality is an assumption we didn't get around working without indeed. On the other hand, when we try to mix relativity and quantum mechanics, the problems we encounter indicate a most probable break down of time, space and causality at very small scales due to Heisenberg uncertainty relations. We already get a hint at such problem from "orthodox" quantum mechanics. Therefore there is a conceptual step to make before going further. Time, space and causality are assumptions in our theories, and they are yet to be understood as emergent phenomena. In that regard I agree with you. That was, in clouded form I confess, the essence of my last reply.

These questions about time and causality enters into the problem of the arrow of time, which DieCommie summed best earlier in the thread. Time is not a flow or a dimension in the traditional sense. Us asking these questions is us thermodynamical machines spending energy to ask and answer these questions by going from less probable to more probable states.

Since we are those very things asking these questions, the very living, inquiring meat, it seems to me the question of what is life is deeply entangled with the question of time, space, causality and what one would call the mind, consciousness and the likes.

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: deimya]
    #9588168 -

deCypher said:
I'm forced to come to the conclusion that thoughts and chemical reactions are merely different aspects of the same thing, and occur simultaneously.


If they occur simultaneously, it's also valid to say that you can generate any physical and chemical reaction that occurs in your body with your thoughts right?

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: deimya]
    #9588547 -

Asymmetry of causation is a metaphysical approach well suited to philosophy. I’m thinking that the T-duality symmetry is the problem. But ,when going back to the flow of Time it could very well be a closed string/orobouros.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9589118 -

Diaboleros said:
If they occur simultaneously, it's also valid to say that you can generate any physical and chemical reaction that occurs in your body with your thoughts right?


Not necessarily.  Although I'm told some meditative practices allow you to control your heartbeart and rate of respiration, the majority of physical and chemical reactions in your body are involuntary.  Thoughts are only correlated with a minority of chemical reactions in your brain.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9589194 -

Everything happening in the now does not equal everything happening at once.

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Re: The implications of the non-existence of time.. [Re: Diaboleros]
    #9600492 -

Diaboleros said:
No you don't get my point at all. You haven't said a single word about cause and effect. We're completely talking on different pages here. I agree with everything you say, but it's completely irrelevant to what I'm trying to get to.


    So… change/motion is also the cause of chemical reactions in the frame (brain as well)constructed within the parameters of Universal.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

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