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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Does "God" exist?
    #3542134 - 12/25/04 02:48 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Does God exist?

God is infinite and boundless. He is everything. Let's call him the Whole, as in everything that does, has, and will ever exist. Some people consider Him to be an individual omnipotent entity or consciousness that controls all. But such an entity would be separate from everything else, or separate from the Whole. To define God as an individual being fragments the issue by separating Him from everything else and subsequently imposes boundaries on his supposedly infinite omnipotent power.

God cannot be an individual being since he is the Whole, and nothing, per the definition of whole, can be separate from it. In fact, a whole is nothing but the sum of its constituents. The concept of a whole is just that?a metaphysical concept. The Whole cannot exist in and of itself, separate from its parts.

So God doesn't exist; he can't exist, per his very definition.

What about individual gods? What does it mean when a person claims to live on a god level or to become his or her own god? What exactly is Nietzsche's Ubermensch, his ?superman?? Well, if the Whole is but the sum of all its parts, then we are all God. If we are all part of the Whole, and obviously we all are per its definition, then we must necessarily all be God.

The ego has trouble accepting this because it seeks freedom and independence. Acknowledging its true nature as part of the Whole means it isn?t an independent self-contained organism. Rather, the egoic mind creates the notion of God and gives it more importance than it deserves, as if the Whole were something greater than the sum of its parts. By pointing to God over there, the ego simultaneously asserts its own independent existence over here. If the concept of God represents something other than myself then I am not part of him, I am free and independent.

Observe the lunacy of this statement. I?m not part of God, or rather, I?m not part of the Whole. How can anything not be part of the Whole? It doesn?t make sense.

Creating division between one?s self and God renders one?s self more conventional in nature. Such is the division of the self, the creation of a conventional external ego in addition to the innate, fundamental, inner self. It frees one of responsibility since the mere mortal human isn?t expected to be perfect. Imagining a higher power provides a rational excuse to blindly follow that which is rightly superior to you, much easier than making decisions for yourself.

But what is the Whole if not an omnipotent being?

You and I, and everybody and everything else.

There are an infinite amount of realities in existence, each corresponding to a particular degree of conventionality vs. fundamentality. Imagining God renders one more conventional in nature by creating the ego, for example. In this physical plane, most of us are fairly conventional in nature and all of us are so to the extent that we exist as physical, tangible beings.

As one travels the road to enlightenment, he transcends his conventionality (the ego) and becomes more fundamentally natured. Truly enlightened beings constantly experience the unity innate in us all. The etheogenic experience offers a glimpse of existence on an absolutely fundamental level where there is no ego nor any distinction between one thing and another. LSD fingerprinting is an example of this.

Here people can directly experience the Whole, not as an individual self-contained entity, but as universal unity that abolishes even their own individual identity (ego death). Thus, while God does not exist, absolutely fundamental existence, or the Whole, does. This is where we go when we die and where we come from when we?re born. I suspect this is the essence of magick, that in highly fundamental states we can manipulate other things because we realize our universal relationship with them. Evil magicians are rare since only egoic beings are evil, and egoic beings, per the ego?s nature, can never become terribly fundamentally natured.

Non-physical entities likely exist in realities more fundamental than our own. Accordingly they have more influence over us than we do over them, more so the more we are conventionally natured (the less we are enlightened). But no being can be omnipotent since that requires them to be the Whole which, as individuals, they necessarily cannot be. Let us not confuse these beings, no matter how powerful, for God...no matter how tempting this prospect may be to our egos.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3542169 - 12/25/04 03:21 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

god = angels

God = nothing and everything. The source.

One = what you describe.


this being written, we should know that i did not read your post :p


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3542228 - 12/25/04 04:14 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

God
.
.
Grod
.
.
.
Groud
.
.
.
.
Ground


Here is an excerpt from the book "The Ending of Time" with the dialogue between Dr. David Bohm, a physicist and Jiddu Krishnamurti, a spiritual teacher:

DB: The scientist feels he is investigating the real nature of matter, independent of thought, ultimately independent anyway. He wants to know the way the universe is. He may be fooling himself, but he feels that it wouldn't be worth doing unless he believes he is finding an objective fact.

K: So would you say that through the investigation of matter he is trying to find something, he is trying to find the ground?

DB: That's exactly it.

K: But wait! Is that it?

DB: Precisely, yes.




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OfflineFrog
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3542277 - 12/25/04 04:38 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think that this is a question that everyone must inevitable resolve for himself or herself.

I don't personally believe that God is everything. I believe He is a spirit. I believe we are spirits that share the same properties as God, but we are not God.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: Frog]
    #3542404 - 12/25/04 06:21 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

That's pretty good Frog.

We are sparks from God. We are made out of God stuff. The flesh essentially traps us here as "earthen vessels". God is the spark (life) giver. We are of the same properties of God so that metaphysical unity is possible after physical death.


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InvisibleDNKYD
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3542509 - 12/25/04 07:24 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

There is no external god, only an internal one. Everybody's god is different, even if they think they believe in the same external god. It's not about a higher intelligent being. It's about a higher state of consciousness within your own mind.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: DNKYD]
    #3542555 - 12/25/04 07:52 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

God gives Eternal Love.


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Offlinebrowndustin
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3542565 - 12/25/04 07:59 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I believe that 'God' exists in all of us. As far as some all mighty being who controls everything is concerned, no I don't think that it's really like that. The bible's full of great lessons but asides from that, it's something I wouldn't revolve and devote my life to. I feel the same about a lot of organized religions and ones that promote some sort of master being.

Most people don't seem to be in sync with a higher level of thinking. They're just not awake or something. When you can bring yourself to that sort of level or plain, you feel connected with everything, at least in my personal experience. That's when I started to think that maybe there are gods, angels or deities. As far as one ultimate being is concerned, I don't have any solid beliefs about that sort of thing.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: browndustin]
    #3542779 - 12/25/04 09:31 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"God is the 'facless' part of 'uss'"
-unknwon :P


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3543641 - 12/26/04 03:44 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

the_pheonix, I follow your train of thought and can tell you are very perceptive; there is one point I'd like to make however, with respect to your concept of God.

You define God as being the 'sum of everything', OR 'the whole'. I would make a distinction Between 'the sum of everything' AND 'the whole'. Allow me to explain what I mean using an illustration:

When an orange is picked off of the tree you could say that it is 'whole'. Let's say you take that orange and remove the peel and then separate each slices of the fruit. So now you have the orange in several pieces-- the peel and the individual slices-- which, combined, equals a 'whole' orange. So there's a slight difference in meaning between 'the whole orange' in the first instance before the orange is peeled ect, and 'the whole orange' in separate peices combined.

My point is, I believe that 'God' is represented by the 'first' whole, or the 'whole before it became separate'. The 'separation of the whole' is the effect of opposition to 'God'. To me, God represents Unity, Cohesion, Attraction, ORDER, and God's nemisis is represented by CHAOS, Corossion, degeneracy, decay.

That is my definition of God. If you define God as the 'separate whole' then you are defining God as both attraction and repulsion, chaos AND order. Now there is a contradiction here that someone might see and that is: You could say that chaos and order COMBINED make one 'whole', and I don't deny that they do compliment each other. But in my mind I associate the term 'God' with the orderly side of the spectrum.


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Offlinezahudulallah
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: Gomp]
    #3543655 - 12/26/04 04:05 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
"God is the 'facless' part of 'uss'"
-unknwon :P




Uncreated energies eh :P

You and your bag of quotes, Gomp.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3543692 - 12/26/04 05:00 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

For something to be manifested, what must there be? The unmanifested.
The manifested is born out of the unmanifested.

For there to be form, what must there be? The formless.
Form is born out of the formless.

For something to be visible, what must there be? The invisible.
The visible is born out of the invisible.

For there to be time, what must there be? The timeless.
Time is born out of the timeless.

For there to be space, what must there be? The spaceless.
Space is born out of the spaceless.

For there to be sound, what must there be? Silence.
Sound is born out of silence.

For there to be action, what must there be? Stillness.
Action is born out of stillness.

~

God is the formless. God is the unmanifested.

God is the invisible. God is consciousness.

God is the spaceless. God is the timeless.

God is stillness. God is silence.

God is.

~

I am the space in which all things take place, action, energy, movement, physical or metaphysical.

I am the unmanifested beyond and within that which is manifested into ?me?.

I am the silence underneath the incessant noise of thinking.

I am the timeless beyond and within the time-bound body.

I am the invisible beyond and within that which is visible.

I am the formless beyond and within my form.

I am the stillness underneath my thoughts.

I am the Life in which all content unfolds.


God art thou, thou art God.



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OfflineGomp
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3543759 - 12/26/04 08:21 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Uncreated energies,.. yes that was a fucking great way of putting it, thanks for sharing :wink:  :thumbup: :heart:


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Edited by Gomp (12/26/04 08:22 AM)


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OfflineAndante
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3543769 - 12/26/04 08:47 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Skorpivo, your post brings to mind "The Thunder, The Perfect Mind", which attempts to describe the Divine Feminine. Here is an excerpt:

For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
I am the members of my mother.
I am the barren one
and many are her sons.
I am she whose wedding is great,
and I have not taken a husband.
I am the midwife and she who does not bear.
I am the solace of my labor pains.
I am the bride and the bridegroom,
and it is my husband who begot me.
I am the mother of my father
and the sister of my husband
and he is my offspring.
I am the slave of him who prepared me.
I am the ruler of my offspring.
But he is the one who begot me before the time on a birthday.
And he is my offspring in (due) time,
and my power is from him.
I am the staff of his power in his youth,
and he is the rod of my old age.
And whatever he wills happens to me.
I am the silence that is incomprehensible
and the idea whose remembrance is frequent.
I am the voice whose sound is manifold
and the word whose appearance is multiple.
I am the utterance of my name.


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: Andante]
    #3543914 - 12/26/04 12:11 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Soulmotion, that's a good point you make, which I hadn't thought of. But I think we are of the same mind, if we say, which I do (or had intended to do), that God = the Whole.

SkorpivoMusterion, those are wise words, which I see as compatible with the view I expressed (maybe that was your intention, I'm not saying it wasn't).


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3544077 - 12/26/04 01:52 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, I would agree that we are of the same mind (we are brothers of 'the whole'). WE-- 'the whole', could never understand OURSELF without sharing our thoughts, because our thoughts combine to create the whole. So, yes, we are of the same mind.


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: soulmotion]
    #3544177 - 12/26/04 02:54 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Hehe, actually I was using it as an expression. I meant that what you wrote and what I wrote both follow the same strand of thought. :smile: "We are of the same mind." "We are in agreement."


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3544498 - 12/26/04 05:13 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

"God exists in God"
-unknown :P


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3544675 - 12/26/04 06:36 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

We have to define what we mean by "God." Since there is far from any consensus on this, my answer would have to be "depends."


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: Does "God" exist? [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3544885 - 12/26/04 07:47 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Word.


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