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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2304860 -

infedelGOD -

Yes, I think the concept of memes is a good representation of the functioning agent upon which the new form of evolution is occuring in the tree of knowlege. I agree that there doesn't have to be a fundamental conflict between the two trees. And yes, human technology is definitely a product of DNA. But since technology is not based on DNA, it is not in my view atached to the tree of life in the way that a natural organism is. As we agreed (I think), it's part of a new tree.

It seems to me that human life is the oportunity to discover the liberating truth about our existence and identity. We would not have this oportunity if it were not for the tree of life which has given us this highly evolved and perceptive body and the tree of knowledge which has alowed us to control our environment to the extent that we are not consumed day and night with the struggle for survival.

Now that we are here with this oportunity, the ironic task is that we must free ourselves from being controled by these two trees. The tree of life has left strong instinctual drives which control our base animal urges including greed, lust, and fear (have you read Robert Wright's "The Moral Animal", great read!) and the tree of knowlege which deals in constant abstractions, words and thoretical models/philosophies/religions about the world (like this one!) but which ultimately divorces us from perceiving directly the real world as it is now. It's hard to see a tree as it is without looking at it through the concept "tree".

The seperation that is created from reality by the tree of knowlege and its abstractions is at least partially responsible for our treatment of our earth. Because of the seeming seperation, the world is "other" and is seen as a comodity to be exploited rather than a part of our own body. Life itself has now been reduced to a concept (DNA, 0's and 1's) and is now ripe for exploitation. (Incidentaly, if it isn't obvious already, the genesis account is a good parallel to what I'm talking about. Eating of the tree of knowlege expels us from Eden. The movie "Altered States" picks up on this theme during the main character's psychedelic experience in which he and his wife eat of the tree and head off into a mushroom cloud sunset-future).

The real question is, will the further and faster developement of the tree of knowlege and its technological progress (including bioengineering) lead us to transcendence and liberation as so many people beleive? My assertion is that the tree of knowlege itself must be transcended.

I agree, we must not stagnate, we must move, we must grow, we must evolve, we must transcend. But is our only option to move "forward" through the future of time, culture, economics, nationalism and technology and hope that it leads to transcendance rather than destruction? Or is transcendence found where we are now in this eternal moment out of time, fully aware of our existence? Having liberated ourselves from the genetic and memetic dance we find the pure blissful awareness of "I AM" and realize paradoxically that we never really left, we only got so caught up in the excitement of the dance that we forgot what we were - both the audience and actors of the cosmic play.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Source]
    #2305343 -

some excellent points there. yeah sometimes I do see technology as this grotesque, terribly dehumanizing force that will eventually consume all that's good, but usually I recover from such thoughts. I guess I'm an optimist.

and it's not like we have much choice. we've already partaken of the tree of knowledge. we've already been expelled from Eden and there's no going back. we might as well hold on tight and enjoy the ride, wherever it may take us.

see, I don't really worry about being in the moment or anything like that. such thoughts can actually take you out of the moment. I'm just here to enjoy the ride and discover and share whatever personal truths that I can.

from your left to your right just pass it on... :spliff: :heart: :wink:

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Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: ]
    #2305425 -

a problem i see with cloning is that the technique isn't perfect

yeah I already covered this. there are some technical hurdles but there's no reason it can't be done.

as an extreme example of what i mean, let's say that we found a way to grow a concious human brain in a special growth chamber. we shouldn't do it of course, because it's cruel to bestow conciousness on a brain sitting in a jar.

these moral questions have existed long before cloning or genetic engineering came on the scene, these new technologies just exacerbate them. here's a scenario: suppose that during an ultrasound exam, a pregnant woman is found to carry a child with a terrible defect, so that if she gave birth, the child would be condemned to live a life of pain and misery. should she have an abortion to prevent this? does she have the right to end his life? does she have the right to condemn a child to a horrible life, now that she knows this information? is a life of pain better than no life at all?

there are no answers...

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Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2305637 -

Yeah, by nature I'm very pessimistic of the direction mankind is going. I don't like being this way...it's part of my conditioning I guess. I think I could learn at least a few good qualities from you!

Absolutely agree - nothing keeps you out of the moment more than trying to stay in it.

But it's cool that although we may disagree about whether or not technology can lead us closer to real peace and happiness, I think we both agree that life is one hell of a ride! I think the trick that you may have a better handle on than myself is remembering that however things turn out - utopia or nightmare - in the end it's alright.

I don't know if you have kids or not but I do. So I worry over the future they will be facing and feel a responsibility to try to leave them in a better place.

To paraphrase Alan Watts - Life is a reality to be experienced, not a problem to be solved.


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What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: Source]
    #2308411 -

no I don't have any children (that I know of) and I hear ya, I see where you're coming from. I also feel a responsibility to make the world a better place. it's not like I'm not a nihilist or anything, but I do believe that we (humans, the genetic and memetic trees etc.) are bit players in the cosmic play. just a fleck of dust in the grand scheme of things..
I don't think we're the pinnacle of evolution, not even close. we might just be another evolutionary dead end, but that's ok by me too.


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Re: Philosophical Implications of Human Cloning [Re: ]
    #2308436 -

here's an example of what I was talking about:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...nican_two_heads



AP, Feb 06, 2004
"SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic - A team of surgeons began
operating Friday on a Dominican infant born with a second head,
a risky surgery that doctors say they believe to be the first of its kind.

Led by a Los Angeles-based neurosurgeon, the medical team planned
to spend about 13 hours removing Rebeca Martinez's second head,
which has a partially formed brain, ears, eyes and lips."
__________________________________________________________

the second head has a brain, which may possibly form a consciousness later in life...

a lot of people are opposed to technology "messing with" nature, but they forget that nature is already pretty fucked up.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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