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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience
    #839728 - 08/24/02 05:44 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839747 - 08/24/02 05:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

But in our society sex is kept almost hidden, having to do it at home while no one else is looking. There are not many orgies that go on, and no public sex. Porn might have some of those things, but it is not real love. Sex isn't something you can talk about freely with everyone without getting strange looks or negative conseptions of you. A lot of chicks might not have sex with someone due to societal conditioning and feeling guilty if they did it or afraid to look uncool e.t.c. It is our natural primal needs much like eating. It keeps us going and loving life. So I guess that is a good reason why some people turn to masterbation, like me for example : )

Hell if it was a commonly practiced thing, not looked down upon, and legal I would be jumping girls bones all day long.


Edited by Earth_Droid (08/24/02 06:02 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839754 - 08/24/02 06:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Are you trying to tell us something?

I think that pride is the ultimate evidence of self-love. Pride is the only vice that can be purely spiritual or found in the spiritual realm.

With enough self-love one cannot have a guilty conscience. It becomes seared and the person dissolves in the acid of its poison. All that is left is an empty husk ready for the fire.

"Alone"

Alone at night,
only my thoughts for friends,
wishing on a star,
that ne'er shines,
awash in pain,
feeling the angst,
that runs,
like a freight train through my mind.

Thinking of others,
who lost their precious selves,
by clinging to the pride,
their separateness,
their false hope,
to stave off the pain that only ego brings,
existing in a shell of defense mechanisms,
which is all that is left of their being.

I cannot touch them,
there is no one to touch,
there is no one to feel anymore,
just a writhing sorrow,
from looking inward too long,
their soul is asleep,
their mind has slipped into the abyss,
where non-existence keeps its silent vigil.

A tomb for the non-persons,
who traded their birthright,
for a pot of stench,
that grows more fetid,
every passing picosecond,
all that is left,
of love turned inward,
all that is left,
is a hole in time.


Cheers,


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #839756 - 08/24/02 06:01 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839782 - 08/24/02 06:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"Sex is a natural need, agreed. But our sex drive can be lit by several different things"

Like masturbation.

" - most of which are very unhealthy IMO.
Staring at porn is not healthy. I'm not innocent, but I whole-heartedly believe it does nothing but program us to look at women like pieces of meat instead of human souls with bodies."

I also look at porn sometimes, but I don't look at women like pieces of meat, but I agree that it definately makes some people do, which is what I was trying to get across.

"In a society with heightened awareness, I am convinced that sex would be toned down and left even more of a private matter, while providing people with the education on how to be the most ideal lover a mate can have."

Our current society does NOT have much heightened awareness.and sex is toned down and left as a private matter, if you notice the more we are evolving the subject of sex is becomming more less private, and more revealed. Sex ed class tries to teach how one should love. I think that is wrong. The experience and finding out on ones own is the thrill. I don't want to be taught how to love like a school subject, I think that is rediculous, how can someone tell me how to do something that my body is already programmed to know better than me?

"Acting like sex belongs in a box buried in the earth is not only foolish, it ultimately becomes destructive. But to put sex on a sign at every bus stop, on every commercial, on our clothing, in our minds, in our conversations - AT ALL TIMES - is just as bad if not worse. Sexuallity is a part of life, not life. We should keep that in perspective every minute of our lives. "

Of course.


Edited by Earth_Droid (08/24/02 06:29 AM)


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OfflineGRTUD
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839953 - 08/24/02 08:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The cornerstones of irrational thinking (the first or underlying foundation of mental pain and psychological illness) are:
That life should be a certain way;
and that we are being subjected to negative acts.
With that said, and remembering that to a lesser degree, there is always a grain of truth in irrational thinking, the most important love we can strive for, is self love. Self love is defined by an overall acceptance of one's moral inventory, faults and strengths. If masterbation could be, by itself, important enough to tip this balance, then deal with the problem. Not every person at a given time, could say the same thing about a given habit, if it is "good or bad." Habits do tend to be negative, but can, for a time, bring some limited benefits. Sex is so complcated that I don't think anyone really has all the answers. I try to remember that everything has a price.


--------------------
"New shit has come to light..."


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840072 - 08/24/02 09:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Staring at porn is not healthy. I'm not innocent, but I whole-heartedly believe it does nothing but program us to look at women like pieces of meat instead of human souls with bodies.

I have come to believe that pornography is political rhetoric. I think that the U.S. appellate courts are right - That pornography is harmful is not in doubt, that it harms is proof of it's power as speech, speech has to be protected.

People object to porn because it portrays the relationship between men and women in a way that they dislike. Pornography gives a semi-honest depiction of that relationship, and it is the honesty that some people find offensive. i.e. it is not the misrepresentation that people find objectable, but for the most part rather the truthful representation that shocks them. They want the world to be different to the way it is. Don't we all? but you can hardly object to someone telling the truth.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840216 - 08/24/02 11:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It used to be a big insult in early adolescence to be called 'a jerk-off.' That sort of defined the whole person on the basis of an act which was dirty, forbidden or perhaps guilt-ridden. Later on, after one has had some sexual experience, masturbation remains a part of one's sexual behavior, and one becomes laughably relaxed about it. Even my priest, before catechism lessons prior to baptism asked me - a 22 year old at the time - about it. We agreed upon the sensible use of "clinical masturbation" - a mere 'milking of the Cowpers gland,' resulting in lots of psychophysical release, and the renewed ability to resume one's activities without the incessant clamorings of the erotic mind. Now, as the late Ann Landers put it years ago, if you have a woman in your life, and you prefer masturbation, then you have a problem. I agree. However, I have a woman, whom you know, and believe me, sometimes I'll jack-off in the shower right after having GREAT sex. This happens to be normal. Moreover, instead of indulging in pornography, or worse, cheating on one's partner; one can explore sex with 'virtual/imaginary' partners in fantasy during masturbation. Furthermore...masturbation can and should be shared in a relationship, because no one knows how to touch us as well as we know how to touch ourselves, and we need to teach our partners how to touch us.

I've been sexually active for 30 years and was a very late bloomer sexually. During stressful periods of life: student years, graduate school, bad marriage, divorce, self-imposed celibacy; masturbation was more than useful. At times it became excessive, but I did not go blind, get pimples or lose virtue. I did not receive the wrathful punishment of God, Who designed my equipment, neither did I become neurotically obsessed by guilt via the wrongly-named practice of Onanism, after Onan who "spilled his seed upon the Earth," rather than impregnate the woman he was supposed to. Religious discipline from Catholic monasticism (and believe me, I've known monks - Franciscan, Benedictine and Cistercian - who did more than masturbate with each other) to Taoism to Yoga; all prescribe the retention and even internal ejaculation into the bladder, to preserve vital energy and direct it to more lofty states. Tried it for years - didn't work for me. Some guys are asexual. My friend Gary lived in the woods of NH for 15 years without sexual intercourse. I could not and would not do that voluntarily.

The state of Holy Matrimony in the West is spiritually undeveloped. Check the divorce rate. Both Hindu and Buddhist cultures have developed their respective forms of Holy Matrimony, and call it Tantra. Tantra is a Yoga pracice between male and female that constitutes True Marriage - the symbolic Marriage of Sun and Moon (Andrew Weil's book title, and the definition of Hatha [sun-moon] Yoga. The Kundalini can be contemplated abstractly as the 'light of 1000 suns,' or as 'a beautiful girl of 16, with full breasts...etc.' which is bound to arouse the sexual-Kundalini energy in most males. This Root Chakra energy is then enhanced with breathing exercises; brought to the Navel Center. Intersecting of Lingam and Yoni may open one's Heart Chakra, giving one the experience of thanksgiving, gratefulness and boundless love. Good sex often causes visual 'fireworks' in the Head Centers, and even tearful emotion of bliss which evidences an open Throat Center - as does verbal expressions of love, as that love-enegy rises to the Throat Center. Psychedelic sex enhances all of this. If you're on the same page with a partner, and not just using some girl's body to get off on - then there ought not be any guilt. Guilt without real 'crime' is just neurotic guilt. If one is neurotically guilty about mere masturbation, the remedy is not to suppress and repress one's libido any further - as this is the very cause of the neurosis. The remedy is to find a girl who is cool with having some sex, without any heavy emotional strings attached. A girlfriend does not necessarily expect to become your wife just because you slept together. Be open about your predicament, be honest. You will NOT go to Hell for this lesson, but you WILL come away with enhanced mental health and self-esteem. Be truthful, be kind, be happy.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #840311 - 08/24/02 12:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840333 - 08/24/02 12:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Desire and attatchment is the root of suffering. But desire and attatchment goes farther than people think. I mean most of the population on the planet has a lot of desire and attatchment. This includes the desire to be loved, to get a job, to have a kid, to look or act a certain way e.t.c. An example of attatchment can be being away from a friend or loved one, and feeling sad about it. Another thing is, god is above all that and above having judgments about whats right or wrong. I beleive that the idea of right and wrong having to do with god are actions that allow you to become closer to god or be seperated from god. If you continue to do wrong things, you can eventually learn from them and gain understanding and start evolving towards the belief of god, or even becomming god. Many humans throughout history have twiztid spirituality though and made cults or brainwashed people like in christianity. Of course not all christians are like that, and christianity is good on its own. But when some people take the stories or ways of explaning things too literally or not asking anymore questions, then it can become a problem. To sum this post up by not masterbating doesn't mean a person will become more enlightened or have less suffering. Just like any other desire it can become a problem if you let it, but even becomming attatched to having sex can be a problem and lead to suffering.


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840353 - 08/24/02 12:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I definately agree with you enter. In Islamic tradition masturbation is strictly haram (a sin), and the unmarried Muslim man's sexual release will happen in wet dreams. If he is married, then of course he has his wife. Having sex before marriage is out of the question. Masturbation will ultimately do more harm than good. The idea society likes to promote that "masturbation is ok" can often lead a person into a sexual addiction, one complete with guilt and compulsive sexual emotions. By no means God is happy when one of His servents (Muslim, Christian, or Jew) masturbates his or herself, and He expects them to repent for such a deed. While once in a blue moon you might slip, God is oft-forgiving. Many people justify excessive lusting because it is an animal drive within all of us. Once we move from the Animal self, to the accusing self, and then until the restful self, we will then liberate ourselves from wordly desires as we seek refuge in God.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #840366 - 08/24/02 12:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Show me proof to anything your saying Zahid?
How do you know what makes god happy. I only know what I have experienced, and when I am having an orgasm I am sure God is very delighted hat one of his sons is enjoying his creation. I think on your death bed you will get a great surprise visit from god and it might not be what you expect.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #840520 - 08/24/02 02:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840527 - 08/24/02 02:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yet, without self love, one cannot fully love others.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: ]
    #840532 - 08/24/02 02:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840539 - 08/24/02 02:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Let me put it this way, take someone who is full of hatred for themselves, and has no self esteem. Are these people generally nice to be around? Are they full of love and happiness?


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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840553 - 08/24/02 02:31 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I see what you are getting at in this.. and I agree to an extent. If one loves only themselves, they will detract from other people, and you could consider that a bad thing. But on the same hand, I have seen people (who I am very close with) that love other people so much...they spend all their time trying to make everyone happy. They never consider their own needs and end up suffering because of it.

I think the ideal is to find a nice harmonious balance of self-love, and loving others.

I have also heard that the things that disgust us in other people, are actually things that we see in ourselves that disgust us.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: ]
    #840556 - 08/24/02 02:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840572 - 08/24/02 02:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

IMO, love has to start with the self, and then it just spreads out from there.


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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840640 - 08/24/02 03:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Sex and love are not synonymous. Masturbation is not self-love, but sexual gratification or release. What psychological values an individual assigns to this act is another matter, and probably more appropriately addressed by your ideas than the act itself. A person who spends copious amounts of money on material goods in order to make himself happy while ignoring those whom he professes to love could be said to have similar problems with 'self love.'

What I'm saying is, don't assign too much value to the physical act as a sign of an unhealthy psyche but pay more attention to the individual's mind set in relation to his actions (any actions). Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and masturbation may just be a little harmless pleasure or release of sexual tension.


Edited by Anonymous (08/24/02 03:30 PM)


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