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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Love Thy Enemy
    #1914147 - 09/14/03 12:12 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I was engaged in a debate with someone in the Political Forum about whether terrorists should be treated as human beings like everyone else, and I figured I'd start a discussion based on that here. I feel that all people, even the ones we find the most despicable, are still human nonetheless, and deserve to be treated with love and compassion just like everybody else. I don't believe anyone is truly an evil person. Some people are just very, very lost. Most of them have lost their way through hatred, and hating them will only make us lose our way as well. Hatred must be countered by love and compassion. Any thoughts?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1914267 - 09/14/03 01:13 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree completely, but it's the hardest thing to carry out. Evil springs from a sense of injustice being done, but instead of turning the other cheek it seeks vengeance. Which continues the whole cycle of violence..

Jesus had the key, turn the other cheek. Then the fire consumes itself, having no fuel to feed upon. It is very unnatural and feels weird. It has to be taught. Martin Luther King trained activists with it in the civil rights movement of the 60's and that strategy enabled them to win. When that cop beats you with the stick he told them to pray for that cop, not resist. The cop wants you to hit back so that he is justified in his attacks. When you don't do that, you force him to confront himself and his hatefulness. It's spiritual judo. It forces society to confront itself. How I wish the Palestinians would learn this lesson!! It's not nearly as satisfying to the ego, but it works far better.



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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinemanna_man
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1914295 - 09/14/03 01:28 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes I totally agree.
All people were once innocent and pure of heart, yet I doubt that they made the conscious decision to say," hmm, I think I'll become evil from now on." Although we'd like to think that we,as humans take control of our behaviour/personality, it's not us that controls it at all, but our environment and other outside factors. From day one we are molded from an amalgamation of influences that eventually shape you into your present state. If you come from a violent and abusive family, chances are that you yourself will develop these qualities. Everyone is capable of being a perfect human being, just gotta clear out all the other clutter.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: manna_man]
    #1914357 - 09/14/03 02:12 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

we are molded from an amalgamation of influences that eventually shape you into your present state. If you come from a violent and abusive family, chances are that you yourself will develop these qualities.




Yes, the key is to be able to identify in oneself those reflexive/robotic responses and switch them off. So that when you do act, you do so as a spiritual being, not an animal one. In doing so you not only transform yourself, you have the ability to transform others by your example.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1914411 - 09/14/03 02:51 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I disagree. "lost" people deserve compassion, cause "lost" means ignorant/ confused/ not informed/ etc.

it's those who know what's right and don't act that are dispicable cravens, and they deserve to be skullfucked by dennis rodman. and the sad truth is the right/wrong isn't that hard to figure out.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915369 - 09/14/03 02:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Every side believes themselves to be "right." Our response to the other side, whether or not they are wrong, should be love and compassion.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915455 - 09/14/03 03:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What do you think of someone who rapes and murders little children?Based on what you say I would assume you think they deserve compassion as well.

I am not trying to be contentious, I just wonder if there is ever an exception? Can some people cross a line that makes them unworthy of compassion?


BTW, I agree that the people at gitmo should be treated like humans. They have not been found guilty.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915488 - 09/14/03 03:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, someone who rapes and murders little children deserves compassion as well. They should be thrown in prison so they cannot rape and murder more children(thus we show compassion towards the children), but even there they deserve to be treated with compassion. Compassion does not mean allowing people to do destructive things. It means treating them with human dignity. We must never dehumanize anyone, no matter what they have done.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915530 - 09/14/03 03:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I understand what you are saying.

I feel that outright torture is wrong. Under no circumstances should torture be used in the execution of justice.

But, there is a point where I am no longer capable of feeling compassion for someone. But I understand full well what you are saying. I'm just being honest.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915594 - 09/14/03 03:57 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I understand that there is a point at which you can no longer feel compassion for someone, but to work towards enlightenment, we must learn to overcome that boundary and learn compassion for all beings.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915626 - 09/14/03 04:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think that your sense of "compassion" is skewed. for instance, vegans fancy themselves "compassionate" because they don't kill the cute little bunnies, but they are killing all the prarie animals that lived on farm land, not to mention the actual plants they are killing.

likewise, feeling "compassion" for a killer is foolish, a similar attempt to gain a debt free morality, to not "owe" anyone who you've "wronged" or, in your skewed term, not felt "compassion" for. where's the compassion for the victims? for the plants?

the truth is that the world is a murky moral water, and you've got to get dirty, get into the muck, to fight for justice.

kiddie rapers die! they aren't "human" in any more than a very meaningless biological way. when you say "human" most people (like me) consider there to be a moral imperative attached, to be a "man" if you will. man is righteous, craven bastards are not. I don't call kiddie rapers human, nor would I call many a culture "humane".

you're just stuck in the bullshit of politically correct relativistic dogma. stop reading dhali lama propoganda and pick up the art of war or the prince.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915627 - 09/14/03 04:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I understand that there is a point at which you can no longer feel compassion for someone, but to work towards enlightenment, we must learn to overcome that boundary and learn compassion for all beings.




This is a hard thing to swallow.

How can you feel like you are one with someone who commits such unspeakable acts?

I feel that there are things someone can do that seperates them from the whole.

I guess that does not mean that we should not show compassion, but love? I cannot even comprehend that.



--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915676 - 09/14/03 04:26 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
I think that your sense of "compassion" is skewed.  for instance, vegans fancy themselves "compassionate" because they don't kill the cute little bunnies, but they are killing all the prarie animals that lived on farm land, not to mention the actual plants they are killing. 



We cannot save every life, but that is not what compassion is about.  The Native Americans even showed compassion for the animals they hunted.  They thanked the animal's spirit for providing them with food.  Compassion does not mean we must sustain all life.  It merely means that we must not act out of hatred.

Quote:

likewise, feeling "compassion" for a killer is foolish, a similar attempt to gain a debt free morality, to not "owe" anyone who you've "wronged" or, in your skewed term, not felt "compassion" for.  where's the compassion for the victims?  for the plants?



I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I feel compassion for murder victims just as I feel compassion for the murderer.  Compassion must be directed towards all things.

Quote:

the truth is that the world is a murky moral water, and you've got to get dirty, get into the muck, to fight for justice.



Nice to know that you're so special as to know "the truth." :smirk:

Quote:

kiddie rapers die!  they aren't "human" in any more than a very meaningless biological way.  when you say "human" most people (like me) consider there to be a moral imperative attached, to be a "man" if you will.  man is righteous, craven bastards are not.  I don't call kiddie rapers human, nor would I call many a culture "humane".



So much anger...so much hatred... This hatred is what continues the cycle of violence throughout the world.

Quote:

you're just stuck in the bullshit of politically correct relativistic dogma.  stop reading dhali lama propoganda and pick up the art of war or the prince. 



Neither of those books is about morality.  They only teach how to wage war and preserve power.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915689 - 09/14/03 04:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I understand that there is a point at which you can no longer feel compassion for someone, but to work towards enlightenment, we must learn to overcome that boundary and learn compassion for all beings.




This is a hard thing to swallow.



It always is, but if there is love in your heart, you too can come to understand it.

Quote:

How can you feel like you are one with someone who commits such unspeakable acts?



Because we are one. Because they are human. Because they have been blinded by hatred in the same way that those who hate them have been. Hatred can only be fought with love.

Quote:

I feel that there are things someone can do that seperates them from the whole.



You are entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

Quote:

I guess that does not mean that we should not show compassion, but love? I cannot even comprehend that.



It is difficult to comprehend, but hopefully some day you will understand.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915690 - 09/14/03 04:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
you're just stuck in the bullshit of politically correct relativistic dogma. stop reading dhali lama propoganda and pick up the art of war or the prince.




Dude, you really let your ego get ahold of you, man! Your like, aura is all red and everything! I am sensing some real negative vibes from you. I think we should all take a deeeep breath and think about the wind blowing gently in the trees....

No, seriously now, what he is saying isn't dogma. He has found it as the truth in his own life, as I have. Spreading hate and unequality only helps worsen it. Let's all fucking beat the hell out of each other!

I don't see how what he is saying doesn't make sense. The rapists are still locked up to protect the people they harm, and we don't feel an intense hatred for them, only for what they have done.
Peace.


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Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915718 - 09/14/03 04:46 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I totally understand what you mean when you say that the murderer deserves compassion the same as the victim does.

But to the point of loving them?I guess we just feel differently. I will never feel as generous with my love as you do.

I also agree with what you say about hate. But what about anger? Anger is a very natural feeling.As natural as love.I could never love
someone who rapes and murders children.Nor do I feel that I need to.

I believe that when someone commits horrible acts against humanity, they seperate themselves from humanity.

I respectfully disagree with you as well.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (09/14/03 04:49 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915737 - 09/14/03 04:57 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
I also agree with what you say about hate. But what about anger? Anger is a very natural feeling.As natural as love.I could never love
someone who rapes and murders children.Nor do I feel that I need to.



Ah, you see the difference between anger and hate. Can you not also see that it is possible to be angry at someone AND love them at the same time? I get angry at my parents every now and then, but I still love them.

Quote:

I believe that when someone commits horrible acts against humanity, they seperate themselves from humanity.



I believe they are merely showing their human fallibility.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915793 - 09/14/03 05:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:I believe they are merely showing their human fallibility.





Well, I think that they are showing contempt for life.

People that randomly destroy life are like a virus. Life needs to thrive if it is to achieve it's goals.A virus must be destroyed.

A virus does not deserve love.

I am not trying to get the last word here, But I want you to understand my point as much as you want me to understand yours.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915816 - 09/14/03 05:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I understand your point here, but it seems to be coming more out of emotion than from reason. BTW, I don't think there are many people out there that "randomly" destroy life. People destroy out of anger and out of hate. About them being a virus: A virus cannot be destroyed. It can only be contained. To do so, we must get at what it feeds off of: hate. If we eliminate hate within ourselves, we eliminate its source of energy.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915838 - 09/14/03 05:48 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I understand your point here, but it seems to be coming more out of emotion than from reason.





We are emotional beings.Without emotions where would we be? Without emotions ,you would not be able to love these people.



Quote:

BTW, I don't think there are many people out there that "randomly" destroy life.





Either do I.


Quote:

A virus cannot be destroyed.





Sure it can.By being rendered unable to do more destruction.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (09/14/03 05:50 PM)


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