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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
#1763887 - 07/30/03 07:10 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr_Mushrooms said: Wouldn't that be cool?
Fuck no! I am just here to argue with other people, because I now that I am right. Being here and proving everyone else wrong by pointing out that they are wrong has a certain egotisical satisfaction to it. I mean, I am smart, so that is basically why I am here. People that are here to share their thoughts, opinions, and insights with other like-minded people, since there aren't a lot of people like that around them, and hear other points from these people, to see things from a new perspective and hopefully learn something new... they just piss me off. Why? Because they don't know that I am right, that's why. Oh, by the way, Mr. Mushrooms, I hate you. hehe Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
#1763986 - 07/30/03 07:59 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Mr Mushrooms, I have done exactly what you have just described.
so.....what the fuck? maaaaaan.
-------------------- enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
#1764710 - 07/31/03 12:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is another reason why I don't read or post here very much. I am not interested in personal arguments or flinging mud at one another. Certainly there are more important things to do in life than argue with someone on the Internet. Isn't there?
Furthermore that kind of arguing is yet another example of how love is waning in our lives today. Some spend time arguing with others that they do not know and in the process add more pain and grief into their lives. That isn't just an example of a lack of love.
It's also pathetic
wow. what the hell are you talking about? I made one response to you in this thread and I thought it was a valid point and I was pretty civil. seems you're the one doing all the arguing and mud-flinging around here. and don't you think that last bit was kinda petty and gratuitous?
the fact is, S&P isn't filled with "that kind of arguing". maybe you're describing your own experience here. but I've found it to be a very tolerant place where people come to share their thoughts, not to dispense Truth from atop a pedestal. this place has always had a good vibe except for a brief period of a few months.
and the things you said about you accepting other views on any topic, about everyone being entitled to an opinion. that's utter bullshit and even you know it. you don't tolerate people getting out of line. here is one example of it. there are hundreds of better examples (some of which are well documented in another forum), but that one happened to be on top of the page.
this thread is another example. it seems you can't quite shake that urge to control everything. you have to realize that you are dealing with real people here. real people don't have edit buttons. real people don't have delete buttons. you have to learn to deal with them and their opinions.
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LOBO
Vagabond
Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1765292 - 07/31/03 07:10 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Bloody utopian visionaries.
The understanding of the love I explained is something that is to be experienced not to be rationalize, I have had that experience, in the same token I can see that it could be hard to understand if you haven?t had it. My only advice to you If you wish to take it to at least be open to the possibility of this kinda "Love" because if not you will be denying yourself probably the most important thing to understand in life. Is the understanding that ends all inner conflicts. My heart and mind is for the most of the time, is still close to this love, I like most monkeys in this planet still choose suffering and egotistic behaviors, but I am trying to brake out of it. I hope you find "Love" one day.
--------------------
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1765548 - 07/31/03 09:22 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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but I see nothing that indicates the harm I inflict incidentally on others has any etheric repercussions on me
Forget about all etheric mumbo-jumbo. There are still repercussions from how you treat people, even if those repercussions don't always affect your person directly. They will however affect things you care about, even after you're dead, assuming of course that you care about anything at all that is outside of the personal skin.
Love is not the same as communism. Communism is everyones submission to the collective will, whatever that is. Usually it turns out to be the will of the vanguard of the proletariat i.e. Comrade Chairman.
Love is when you choose to apply your own individual will for the benefit of others. Actually, change that to "others and yourself", because you won't be very successful in applying your will if you don't also love yourself. Or you could see yourself as a tool of love: would a good tool let itself be hurt or damaged needlessly? Of course not.
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Pyronate
Prying open mythird eye
Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Forever I walk among the ...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
#1766578 - 07/31/03 03:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Rhizoid said: There are still repercussions from how you treat people, even if those repercussions don't always affect your person directly. They will however affect things you care about, even after you're dead, assuming of course that you care about anything at all that is outside of the personal skin.
I don't. To be more specific, I don't care about anything that is outside of my own mind; my flesh is merely a vehicle for my mind (at least for now).
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Love is when you choose to apply your own individual will for the benefit of others.
But why would I want to do that? Only if benefiting others also has an ultimate benefit for me would I attempt to do anything of that sort. Thus, I have all the outward appearances of "love" (as such) towards certain people, but I also possess the ability to cut them loose if it's to my benefit to do so. As a solipsist, the only thing I know exists (ie, my own mind) is the only thing I consider worth maintaining.
-------------------- "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times." --Bill Hicks (RIP)
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1768012 - 08/01/03 12:41 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see. Love must be totally incomprehensible to a solipsist!
But there is a two-step procedure to reach an understanding of love:
1. Perform the does-objective-reality-exist challenge. There are several versions of this, involving varying degrees of bodily pain. Then realize that other people's minds are just like yours. The seeming difference is only a matter of perspective.
2. Ask yourself which is preferrable: to help others and then die, or to not help others and then die, all other things being exactly equal. Unless you're a nihilist you'll see why the first alternative is best.
Step 2 won't work if you're a nihilist. In that case someone must actually show you love by giving it to you, I suppose.
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Anonymous
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
#1768224 - 08/01/03 02:36 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Good advice!
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Pyronate
Prying open mythird eye
Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Forever I walk among the ...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
#1770003 - 08/01/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Rhizoid said: I see. Love must be totally incomprehensible to a solipsist!
Not quite. I understand love, I merely see no reason to have it, and look down on others that do.
Quote:
1. Perform the does-objective-reality-exist challenge. There are several versions of this, involving varying degrees of bodily pain. Then realize that other people's minds are just like yours. The seeming difference is only a matter of perspective.
Tragically flawed by its very nature. Sensory perception is covered by the brain-in-the-tank theory (recently popularized by The Matrix). Feeling pain is not proof that an objective reality exists (unless you consider the illusion of something - and thus the existence of a pattern of information which contains the illusion of reality - to be existence; you can make a definite argument there, but it achieves nothing towards proving the existence of other minds).
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2. Ask yourself which is preferrable: to help others and then die, or to not help others and then die, all other things being exactly equal. Unless you're a nihilist you'll see why the first alternative is best.
Also flawed. It's not that simple; it's a matter of evaluating the most beneficial course for myself. Sometimes that involves helping other people. Sometimes it involves harming them. I hold no particular ill will towards other people, nor any particular compassion; they're just tools/obstacles in the path of life.
-------------------- "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times." --Bill Hicks (RIP)
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tomatoes
you say tomatoe
Registered: 06/13/03
Posts: 180
Loc: and i say . . .
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1770395 - 08/01/03 04:44 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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glad you're feeling better Pyronate
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Pyronate
Prying open mythird eye
Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Forever I walk among the ...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: tomatoes]
#1770502 - 08/01/03 05:14 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I never felt bad. I merely re-examined the first philosophic question: whether or not to commit suicide. I'm still not sure my present choice is the right one.
-------------------- "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times." --Bill Hicks (RIP)
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1770598 - 08/01/03 05:42 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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pyronate: Not quite. I understand love, I merely see no reason to have it, and look down on others that do.
-hahahaha, thats silly man, youve boxed yourself into your own private jail cell. Looking down on others for loving other people is the ultimate form of useless elitism. How can you look down on others for something you have obviously never experienced? and if you have experienced love, then what tragic event has made you so deeply jaded?
-------------------- enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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infidelGOD
illusion
Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
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thats silly man, youve boxed yourself into your own private jail cell. Looking down on others for loving other people is the ultimate form of useless elitism
is that any worse than people who think they have love looking down on those that supposedly don't have it? and worse, presuming to teach others about love while showing none themselves.
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: infidelGOD]
#1771758 - 08/02/03 12:53 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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sure, i agree with that. hipocracy.
-------------------- enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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nubious
1up on the rest
Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Quote:
is that any worse than people who think they have love looking down on those that supposedly don't have it? and worse, presuming to teach others about love while showing none themselves.
Well said, Infidel..
Quote:
I never felt bad. I merely re-examined the first philosophic question: whether or not to commit suicide. I'm still not sure my present choice is the right one.
Well, at least with your present choice you can re-evaluate the question... Jumping to hasty conclusions based off your current frame of reference may be regrettable. Time continues to flow, and there's an infinite number of possibilities for your future. Which path you take is ultimately up to you. Hang in there - it takes time but things get better.
-------------------- No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.
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mr crisper
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Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1772673 - 08/02/03 11:39 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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sorry to come in a bit late. this comment you wrote interested me - "To be more specific, I don't care about anything that is outside of my own mind" where is the point of transition from inside to outside? where is the border between you and everything else? the tip of your tongue? your eardrums?
is there, or has there ever been a single thought in your mind that is wholly your own? look closely at your thoughts, ideals, ideas, are they simply a summation of everything you have ever seen or heard? a reflection of your life so far. they all came into your mind from the 'outside' you claim not to care about.
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1774653 - 08/03/03 12:57 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Feeling pain is not proof that an objective reality exists (unless you consider the illusion of something - and thus the existence of a pattern of information which contains the illusion of reality - to be existence; you can make a definite argument there, but it achieves nothing towards proving the existence of other minds).
Objective reality can never be proven to have any specific metaphysical nature. All we know about objective reality is what we observe of it. It doesn't matter if it's actually a simulation on some hypothetical deeper level, as long as the distinction between simulation and non-simulation can't be detected by us.
The point of the pain test is that there are things you will do or avoid doing precisely because you operate with the assumption that there are things that exist independently of whether you think they exist or not. Pain is not necessary for this, any stimulus will do. But pain makes it harder to pretend ignorance of this assumption.
Quote:
Also flawed. It's not that simple; it's a matter of evaluating the most beneficial course for myself. Sometimes that involves helping other people. Sometimes it involves harming them.
When you decide what is most beneficial to yourself, do you ever feel divided when you weigh the alternatives against each other? If that's the case, do you think you could ever be divided between two choices that only differ in that one of the choices will result in helping others and one will result in harming others?
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Anonymous
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
#1775176 - 08/03/03 10:15 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am glad not to find myself at the end of one of your question marks.
As a philosophy don't you find solipsism to be self-negating, i.e. reductio ad absurdum?
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Pyronate
Prying open mythird eye
Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Forever I walk among the ...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
#1775731 - 08/03/03 02:35 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rhizoid said: The point of the pain test is that there are things you will do or avoid doing precisely because you operate with the assumption that there are things that exist independently of whether you think they exist or not. Pain is not necessary for this, any stimulus will do. But pain makes it harder to pretend ignorance of this assumption.
The key word here is assumption. When dealing with reality (or the illusion of it), I accept the general trend towards 1:1 correspondence that is present within the construct; every time I jab myself with a needle, it hurts. Thus, I avoid jabbing myself with a needle.
But it doesn't prove ANYTHING. Nothing new here has been stated. It merely shows that, in one sense or another, there somewhere exists a pattern of information including an needle and what happens when I jab this flesh with it. That pattern of information may be purely an internal construct, or it may be an external reality. It doesn't matter either way, because it STILL DOESN'T PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER MINDS. It doesn't even indicate the existence of other minds.
Where you could present an argument comes from the flow of information which does not appear to originate from my present state of consciousness - but that doesn't mean it's not originating from me; it may be coming from my subconscious (or superconscious), it may be coming from a past forgotten conscious, or a future unknown conscious. It may be coming from a seperate entity, but that is merely one possibility.
The fact remains that the apparent existence of reality does nothing towards proving the existence of other minds.
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When you decide what is most beneficial to yourself, do you ever feel divided when you weigh the alternatives against each other? If that's the case, do you think you could ever be divided between two choices that only differ in that one of the choices will result in helping others and one will result in harming others?
As a general rule, one path will be more beneficial, even if only slightly. But in the case of a true conflict of interest (including situations where the difference between paths is minimal), I do whatever what I feel like doing at the time. Whether or not it results in harm to others is insignificant; if I feel like hurting someone, why not?
-------------------- "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times." --Bill Hicks (RIP)
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Rhizoid
carbon unit
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
#1777570 - 08/04/03 06:44 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't think solipsism is reductio ad absurdum. It's more like just plain common-sense absurdum.
I think there are basically two distinct types of solipsism:
1. The magic-by-special-association type. Objective reality is acknowledged and is a factor in philosophical and epistemological reasoning, in exactly the same way as in realism, except that the solipsist claims that there is one difference: objective reality exists, but the solipsist's consciousness not only exists, it really exists. And the only reason for this distinction is that the solipsist has a special association to his own consciousness that is different from his associations to other people's consciousness.
2. The other type is cul-de-sac solipsism: since nothing exists except the solipsist's own consciousness, there is no point in philosophizing about objective reality, and there is no point in communicating thoughts with others, because there are no "others". Such solipsists seem to be very rare, or perhaps they only give that impression since they have no reason to talk to us about their philosophy.
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