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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Love Thy Enemy
    #1914147 - 09/13/03 10:12 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I was engaged in a debate with someone in the Political Forum about whether terrorists should be treated as human beings like everyone else, and I figured I'd start a discussion based on that here. I feel that all people, even the ones we find the most despicable, are still human nonetheless, and deserve to be treated with love and compassion just like everybody else. I don't believe anyone is truly an evil person. Some people are just very, very lost. Most of them have lost their way through hatred, and hating them will only make us lose our way as well. Hatred must be countered by love and compassion. Any thoughts?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1914267 - 09/13/03 11:13 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I agree completely, but it's the hardest thing to carry out. Evil springs from a sense of injustice being done, but instead of turning the other cheek it seeks vengeance. Which continues the whole cycle of violence..

Jesus had the key, turn the other cheek. Then the fire consumes itself, having no fuel to feed upon. It is very unnatural and feels weird. It has to be taught. Martin Luther King trained activists with it in the civil rights movement of the 60's and that strategy enabled them to win. When that cop beats you with the stick he told them to pray for that cop, not resist. The cop wants you to hit back so that he is justified in his attacks. When you don't do that, you force him to confront himself and his hatefulness. It's spiritual judo. It forces society to confront itself. How I wish the Palestinians would learn this lesson!! It's not nearly as satisfying to the ego, but it works far better.



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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Offlinemanna_man
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1914295 - 09/13/03 11:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Yes I totally agree.
All people were once innocent and pure of heart, yet I doubt that they made the conscious decision to say," hmm, I think I'll become evil from now on." Although we'd like to think that we,as humans take control of our behaviour/personality, it's not us that controls it at all, but our environment and other outside factors. From day one we are molded from an amalgamation of influences that eventually shape you into your present state. If you come from a violent and abusive family, chances are that you yourself will develop these qualities. Everyone is capable of being a perfect human being, just gotta clear out all the other clutter.


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This post is protected under copyrite law.All above content is strictly the property of ?manna_man.Any infringement of copyright property is strictly prohibited.Any violators will be stretched, shot, and then vaporized into a state of anti-matter, where they will cease to exist.

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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: manna_man]
    #1914357 - 09/14/03 12:12 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

we are molded from an amalgamation of influences that eventually shape you into your present state. If you come from a violent and abusive family, chances are that you yourself will develop these qualities.




Yes, the key is to be able to identify in oneself those reflexive/robotic responses and switch them off. So that when you do act, you do so as a spiritual being, not an animal one. In doing so you not only transform yourself, you have the ability to transform others by your example.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1914411 - 09/14/03 12:51 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree. "lost" people deserve compassion, cause "lost" means ignorant/ confused/ not informed/ etc.

it's those who know what's right and don't act that are dispicable cravens, and they deserve to be skullfucked by dennis rodman. and the sad truth is the right/wrong isn't that hard to figure out.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915369 - 09/14/03 12:32 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Every side believes themselves to be "right." Our response to the other side, whether or not they are wrong, should be love and compassion.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915455 - 09/14/03 01:03 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

What do you think of someone who rapes and murders little children?Based on what you say I would assume you think they deserve compassion as well.

I am not trying to be contentious, I just wonder if there is ever an exception? Can some people cross a line that makes them unworthy of compassion?


BTW, I agree that the people at gitmo should be treated like humans. They have not been found guilty.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915488 - 09/14/03 01:13 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, someone who rapes and murders little children deserves compassion as well. They should be thrown in prison so they cannot rape and murder more children(thus we show compassion towards the children), but even there they deserve to be treated with compassion. Compassion does not mean allowing people to do destructive things. It means treating them with human dignity. We must never dehumanize anyone, no matter what they have done.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915530 - 09/14/03 01:27 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I understand what you are saying.

I feel that outright torture is wrong. Under no circumstances should torture be used in the execution of justice.

But, there is a point where I am no longer capable of feeling compassion for someone. But I understand full well what you are saying. I'm just being honest.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915594 - 09/14/03 01:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I understand that there is a point at which you can no longer feel compassion for someone, but to work towards enlightenment, we must learn to overcome that boundary and learn compassion for all beings.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915626 - 09/14/03 02:07 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I think that your sense of "compassion" is skewed. for instance, vegans fancy themselves "compassionate" because they don't kill the cute little bunnies, but they are killing all the prarie animals that lived on farm land, not to mention the actual plants they are killing.

likewise, feeling "compassion" for a killer is foolish, a similar attempt to gain a debt free morality, to not "owe" anyone who you've "wronged" or, in your skewed term, not felt "compassion" for. where's the compassion for the victims? for the plants?

the truth is that the world is a murky moral water, and you've got to get dirty, get into the muck, to fight for justice.

kiddie rapers die! they aren't "human" in any more than a very meaningless biological way. when you say "human" most people (like me) consider there to be a moral imperative attached, to be a "man" if you will. man is righteous, craven bastards are not. I don't call kiddie rapers human, nor would I call many a culture "humane".

you're just stuck in the bullshit of politically correct relativistic dogma. stop reading dhali lama propoganda and pick up the art of war or the prince.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915627 - 09/14/03 02:07 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I understand that there is a point at which you can no longer feel compassion for someone, but to work towards enlightenment, we must learn to overcome that boundary and learn compassion for all beings.




This is a hard thing to swallow.

How can you feel like you are one with someone who commits such unspeakable acts?

I feel that there are things someone can do that seperates them from the whole.

I guess that does not mean that we should not show compassion, but love? I cannot even comprehend that.



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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915676 - 09/14/03 02:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
I think that your sense of "compassion" is skewed.  for instance, vegans fancy themselves "compassionate" because they don't kill the cute little bunnies, but they are killing all the prarie animals that lived on farm land, not to mention the actual plants they are killing. 



We cannot save every life, but that is not what compassion is about.  The Native Americans even showed compassion for the animals they hunted.  They thanked the animal's spirit for providing them with food.  Compassion does not mean we must sustain all life.  It merely means that we must not act out of hatred.

Quote:

likewise, feeling "compassion" for a killer is foolish, a similar attempt to gain a debt free morality, to not "owe" anyone who you've "wronged" or, in your skewed term, not felt "compassion" for.  where's the compassion for the victims?  for the plants?



I'm not sure what you're saying here, but I feel compassion for murder victims just as I feel compassion for the murderer.  Compassion must be directed towards all things.

Quote:

the truth is that the world is a murky moral water, and you've got to get dirty, get into the muck, to fight for justice.



Nice to know that you're so special as to know "the truth." :smirk:

Quote:

kiddie rapers die!  they aren't "human" in any more than a very meaningless biological way.  when you say "human" most people (like me) consider there to be a moral imperative attached, to be a "man" if you will.  man is righteous, craven bastards are not.  I don't call kiddie rapers human, nor would I call many a culture "humane".



So much anger...so much hatred... This hatred is what continues the cycle of violence throughout the world.

Quote:

you're just stuck in the bullshit of politically correct relativistic dogma.  stop reading dhali lama propoganda and pick up the art of war or the prince. 



Neither of those books is about morality.  They only teach how to wage war and preserve power.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915689 - 09/14/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I understand that there is a point at which you can no longer feel compassion for someone, but to work towards enlightenment, we must learn to overcome that boundary and learn compassion for all beings.




This is a hard thing to swallow.



It always is, but if there is love in your heart, you too can come to understand it.

Quote:

How can you feel like you are one with someone who commits such unspeakable acts?



Because we are one. Because they are human. Because they have been blinded by hatred in the same way that those who hate them have been. Hatred can only be fought with love.

Quote:

I feel that there are things someone can do that seperates them from the whole.



You are entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree.

Quote:

I guess that does not mean that we should not show compassion, but love? I cannot even comprehend that.



It is difficult to comprehend, but hopefully some day you will understand.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915690 - 09/14/03 02:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
you're just stuck in the bullshit of politically correct relativistic dogma. stop reading dhali lama propoganda and pick up the art of war or the prince.




Dude, you really let your ego get ahold of you, man! Your like, aura is all red and everything! I am sensing some real negative vibes from you. I think we should all take a deeeep breath and think about the wind blowing gently in the trees....

No, seriously now, what he is saying isn't dogma. He has found it as the truth in his own life, as I have. Spreading hate and unequality only helps worsen it. Let's all fucking beat the hell out of each other!

I don't see how what he is saying doesn't make sense. The rapists are still locked up to protect the people they harm, and we don't feel an intense hatred for them, only for what they have done.
Peace.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915718 - 09/14/03 02:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I totally understand what you mean when you say that the murderer deserves compassion the same as the victim does.

But to the point of loving them?I guess we just feel differently. I will never feel as generous with my love as you do.

I also agree with what you say about hate. But what about anger? Anger is a very natural feeling.As natural as love.I could never love
someone who rapes and murders children.Nor do I feel that I need to.

I believe that when someone commits horrible acts against humanity, they seperate themselves from humanity.

I respectfully disagree with you as well.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Edited by sirreal (09/14/03 02:49 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915737 - 09/14/03 02:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
I also agree with what you say about hate. But what about anger? Anger is a very natural feeling.As natural as love.I could never love
someone who rapes and murders children.Nor do I feel that I need to.



Ah, you see the difference between anger and hate. Can you not also see that it is possible to be angry at someone AND love them at the same time? I get angry at my parents every now and then, but I still love them.

Quote:

I believe that when someone commits horrible acts against humanity, they seperate themselves from humanity.



I believe they are merely showing their human fallibility.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915793 - 09/14/03 03:27 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:I believe they are merely showing their human fallibility.





Well, I think that they are showing contempt for life.

People that randomly destroy life are like a virus. Life needs to thrive if it is to achieve it's goals.A virus must be destroyed.

A virus does not deserve love.

I am not trying to get the last word here, But I want you to understand my point as much as you want me to understand yours.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915816 - 09/14/03 03:36 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I understand your point here, but it seems to be coming more out of emotion than from reason. BTW, I don't think there are many people out there that "randomly" destroy life. People destroy out of anger and out of hate. About them being a virus: A virus cannot be destroyed. It can only be contained. To do so, we must get at what it feeds off of: hate. If we eliminate hate within ourselves, we eliminate its source of energy.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915838 - 09/14/03 03:48 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I understand your point here, but it seems to be coming more out of emotion than from reason.





We are emotional beings.Without emotions where would we be? Without emotions ,you would not be able to love these people.



Quote:

BTW, I don't think there are many people out there that "randomly" destroy life.





Either do I.


Quote:

A virus cannot be destroyed.





Sure it can.By being rendered unable to do more destruction.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Edited by sirreal (09/14/03 03:50 PM)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915846 - 09/14/03 03:53 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I understand your point here, but it seems to be coming more out of emotion than from reason.





We are emotional beings.Without emotions where would we be?



Emotions are fine, but they are notoriously subjective.



Quote:

Quote:

A virus cannot be destroyed.





Sure it can.By being rendered unable to do more destruction.



Right, but this can be done out of love. Hatred, and even anger, are not necessary to do what is right. In fact, it gets in the way. Hatred must be neutralized, and not allowed to spread.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915866 - 09/14/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:Emotions are fine, but they are notoriously subjective.




Love is subjective as well then.



Quote:

Hatred must be neutralized, and not allowed to spread.




I agree with that. Just not with the notion that hate must be replaced with love.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915882 - 09/14/03 04:06 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

you're so wrong, it hurts. violence isn't immoral, nor is hatred. apathy is.

don't presume to speak for native americans, as most are quite angry about this whole being colonialized thing. in case you haven't heard.

hate, anger, violence, all can be good. ends are what matter, and ends must be determined by distinguishing reality from appearance. "compassion for all" is a fools relativism, denying the difference of worth, of value, etc.

seriously, pacifists are just trying to please their own guilty egos when they ought to be fighting a tangible enemy: peace is a cop out until it's real. it's all fine and good to view peace as a goal, but it's just sticking your head in the sand until the threat is over. the protectors of the innocent have realized this throughout time, hence the "holy warrior" or "paladin". sure, many evil men have called themselves "holy warriors" and the like, but once again, that's where appearance/ reality come in.

your pleas of compassion help the evil spread.... but it's so nice and easy to deny responsibility, to say "who am I to judge?" or "who are you to judge?". we're all that there is to judge and be judged, at least in this reality, and so we must accept this responsibility. haven't you ever read a myth? remember the one were the guy who felt "compassion" for everyone beat the evil king?

no, you don't, do you?

btw, natives don't condescend the animals by giving them "compassion", they kill them (I'm pretty sure the animals would like to go on living...) and eat them. the natives just realize that this is just, as they just recognize that they have more responsibility, hence more need of the energy of the animal. this is a value judgement in a way and in a way it isn't. the worth of the animal is judged less than that of the hunter, but on a more profound level the hunter realizes that the animals goals and his are one and the same, so it is a symbiotic relationship.

no such relationship exists in white culture, as the goals of dominate culture and those of the animals are NOT the same.

please, if you have any compassion for that which deserves compassion, first do you best to distinguish reality from appearance, good from evil, then ACT. don't just wax spiritual about apathy.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915888 - 09/14/03 04:07 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Love and compassion come with the desire to do what is right. I believe that murderers should go to jail, but not out of hatred for them, but out of love, just as your parents punish you out of love when you do something wrong. It's called "tough love."


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915894 - 09/14/03 04:11 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

'Terrorist' is a word thrown around a lot these days. I think it is subjective at best.

Who's the terrorists? I think the US is. Who funded and gave supplies to the Al Queda, and Bin Laden when they first started? The US. Who told them that they would help them, and then turned them against each other and turned their back on them? The US. They are pissed for good reason.. we are evil. To them, we are the evil terrorists.

But that's too political for this forum.. I think that overall compassion for all living things would do this planet a world of good.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1915901 - 09/14/03 04:13 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Love and compassion come with the desire to do what is right.




So does anger.Sometimes.

Quote:

I believe that murderers should go to jail, but not out of hatred for them, but out of love, just as your parents punish you out of love when you do something wrong. It's called "tough love."





Anger is not always hate based. Anger is part of "tough love".

I am not so sure that hate is always a bad thing either.



--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915919 - 09/14/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
you're so wrong, it hurts. violence isn't immoral, nor is hatred. apathy is.



Violence is indeed necessary sometimes, but even that can be done with love and compassion. Hatred and apathy are both obstacles to progress.

Quote:

don't presume to speak for native americans, as most are quite angry about this whole being colonialized thing. in case you haven't heard.



But how will anger and hatred solve their dilemna?

Quote:

hate, anger, violence, all can be good. ends are what matter, and ends must be determined by distinguishing reality from appearance. "compassion for all" is a fools relativism, denying the difference of worth, of value, etc.



I recognize the negativity in the actions of those who act out of hate and anger, and resort to unnecessary violence, and thus do not wish to perpetuate it. By the way, your "ends are what matter" assertion is more relativist than what I am saying.

Quote:

seriously, pacifists are just trying to please their own guilty egos when they ought to be fighting a tangible enemy: peace is a cop out until it's real. it's all fine and good to view peace as a goal, but it's just sticking your head in the sand until the threat is over. the protectors of the innocent have realized this throughout time, hence the "holy warrior" or "paladin". sure, many evil men have called themselves "holy warriors" and the like, but once again, that's where appearance/ reality come in.



I agree that sometimes it is necessary to fight, but as I have said all along, this too can be done out of love and compassion, rather than anger and hatred.

Quote:

your pleas of compassion help the evil spread.... but it's so nice and easy to deny responsibility, to say "who am I to judge?" or "who are you to judge?". we're all that there is to judge and be judged, at least in this reality, and so we must accept this responsibility. haven't you ever read a myth? remember the one were the guy who felt "compassion" for everyone beat the evil king?

no, you don't, do you?



You are not listening to what I am saying. Love and compassion do not command us to allow evil to occur. They command us to stand up against it.

Quote:

btw, natives don't condescend the animals by giving them "compassion", they kill them (I'm pretty sure the animals would like to go on living...) and eat them. the natives just realize that this is just, as they just recognize that they have more responsibility, hence more need of the energy of the animal. this is a value judgement in a way and in a way it isn't. the worth of the animal is judged less than that of the hunter, but on a more profound level the hunter realizes that the animals goals and his are one and the same, so it is a symbiotic relationship.



Yes, they realize that they depend on the animal for food, which is why they thank its spirit. They are mindful of the fact that the animal had to die for them to eat, and thus do not take it for granted. Thus they act out of love and compassion.

Quote:

no such relationship exists in white culture, as the goals of dominate culture and those of the animals are NOT the same.



What is it with you and "white culture"? I can't even figure out what this "white culture" is.

Quote:

please, if you have any compassion for that which deserves compassion, first do you best to distinguish reality from appearance, good from evil, then ACT. don't just wax spiritual about apathy.



All things deserve compassion. Good and evil are energies that are manifested within the individual. We must counter negative energy with positive energy.


--------------------


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915922 - 09/14/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

sure "terrorist" is thrown around a lot. this doesn't mean that terrorist aren't real nor that they aren't evil. the people who flew planes into the twin towers are damned, and not worthy of "compassion" in any sense of the word. Bush is a terrorist. sharon is a terrorist. all are enemies of the common people.

now, as to the question of what's to be done with "evil" people... I think that killing them is far too compassionate. we ought to make them work and sleep in meat packing plants.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1915932 - 09/14/03 04:23 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
sure "terrorist" is thrown around a lot. this doesn't mean that terrorist aren't real nor that they aren't evil. the people who flew planes into the twin towers are damned, and not worthy of "compassion" in any sense of the word. Bush is a terrorist. sharon is a terrorist. all are enemies of the common people.



These are all people who have lost their way. They must be shown, through love and compassion, the error of their ways.

Quote:

now, as to the question of what's to be done with "evil" people... I think that killing them is far too compassionate. we ought to make them work and sleep in meat packing plants.



And what would that accomplish?


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OfflineGanjaManDan
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915933 - 09/14/03 04:23 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with silversoul7 completely about the fact that we should treat everyone like a human being.

And Shroomism - I believe it is both the U.S. and Bin Ladens fault. The United States shouldn't have started shit and Bin Laden shouldn't have killed a few thousand people. I mean, if they could both forgive eachother for their wrongful deeds, I'm sure none of this nonsense would be happening..

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1915944 - 09/14/03 04:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Very good thread!

A few more things to consider.

About the virus thing: a virus destroys life, but isn't a virus alive itself? Just a bit of competition viewed from a subjective, human point of view. Most forms of life, including viruses, take other lives to sustain themselves. We just happen to fall victim to viruses, but we act as viruses ourselves towards other species, and most notably towards the Earth.

About oneness: it's not just that we are all connected, it's a holographic thing: every human being is present in every human being. People always try to identify with others they look up to, their role models, and distance themselves from people they'd rather not be associated with. Well in fact, there's a Hitler and a child rapist (as well as a Gandhi) deep inside of everyone of us. You can only overcome them by acknowledging their presence and dealing with them in a proper way. Aggressiveness can be useful if channeled in a proper way, but it can get very destructive if denied or completely unleashed. If you can recognize that you are composed out of the whole of humanity, you can also have compassion for, and maybe love, a child rapist.

My 2 cents, thanks for reading.

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1915952 - 09/14/03 04:29 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Aldous, I totally agree with what you are saying... Basicly, we are who we truly want to be.. We all have the potential to be good, or extremely evil.. Its just our decision based on the way we live our lives

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: GanjaManDan]
    #1916006 - 09/14/03 04:44 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

" By the way, your "ends are what matter" assertion is more relativist than what I am saying."

huh? howso? seeking ends is an absolute task.

"Violence is indeed necessary sometimes, but even that can be done with love and compassion. Hatred and apathy are both obstacles to progress."

you're mincing words. violent love? in the bedroom, but not elsewhere. you fight out of hatred of the ones who threaten your loved ones, not because you love those you are fighting.... please stop begging the question.

"But how will anger and hatred solve their dilemna?"

by preventing apathy.

"What is it with you and "white culture"? I can't even figure out what this "white culture" is."

it's hard to see what you're inside of. I doubt that that's the case, though, as I'm sure your "radical" spiritual beliefs put you (at least in your mind and for all practical purposes) outside of dominate culture.

white culture = dominate culture, at least in america.

"All things deserve compassion. Good and evil are energies that are manifested within the individual. We must counter negative energy with positive energy. "

while that is a nice, neat, easy answer, it is not true. you counter negative energy with negative energy. you fight fire with fire. perhaps you can prevent negative energy from getting you with positive energy, defending your mind, soul, even body with defensive positivity, but ultimately if you want to actually attack evil you've got to be pretty negative about it. gouge out it's eyes, rip it's neck open. negative stuff.

"These are all people who have lost their way. They must be shown, through love and compassion, the error of their ways."

spoken like a sheltered white male american. tell that to the jews. tell that to the natives. tell it to anyone who has actually had to live under hell. before you wave india as an example of what compassion can accomplish, consider the hellish years of colonialism and the current pitiful state of their nation. they've been working on this "compassion" thing for thousands of years.

"And what would that accomplish? "

justice. something you obviously don't care about in the face of a much easier answer: apathy. erm, I mean "compassion".


--------------------
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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1916015 - 09/14/03 04:46 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Aldous said:
Very good thread!





Yes, it is.



Quote:

there's a Hitler and a child rapist in each of us






Nonsense.

I read awhile back about the theory that the universe is like a hologram so I understand what you are saying. But I know for a fact that a baby hitler does not reside in me.


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Edited by sirreal (09/14/03 04:49 PM)

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916017 - 09/14/03 04:47 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

It's all about balance.

Understand that your enemy is simply yourself playing the part of another human who represents something that you feel is bad, but don't let that person do that bad thing.





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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1916028 - 09/14/03 04:53 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
" By the way, your "ends are what matter" assertion is more relativist than what I am saying."

huh? howso? seeking ends is an absolute task.



By assuming that the means justify the ends, you become willing to do evil things to counter evil.

Quote:

"Violence is indeed necessary sometimes, but even that can be done with love and compassion. Hatred and apathy are both obstacles to progress."

you're mincing words. violent love? in the bedroom, but not elsewhere. you fight out of hatred of the ones who threaten your loved ones, not because you love those you are fighting.... please stop begging the question.



Whene we fight, we must do so for the greater good, and to strive for the greater good is an act of love, not hate. Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.

Quote:

"But how will anger and hatred solve their dilemna?"

by preventing apathy.



See above comment

Quote:

"What is it with you and "white culture"? I can't even figure out what this "white culture" is."

it's hard to see what you're inside of. I doubt that that's the case, though, as I'm sure your "radical" spiritual beliefs put you (at least in your mind and for all practical purposes) outside of dominate culture.

white culture = dominate culture, at least in america.



I would call that "Western culture," rather than "white culture," since there are many predominantly white areas of the world with a very different culture.

Quote:

"All things deserve compassion. Good and evil are energies that are manifested within the individual. We must counter negative energy with positive energy. "

while that is a nice, neat, easy answer, it is not true. you counter negative energy with negative energy. you fight fire with fire. perhaps you can prevent negative energy from getting you with positive energy, defending your mind, soul, even body with defensive positivity, but ultimately if you want to actually attack evil you've got to be pretty negative about it. gouge out it's eyes, rip it's neck open. negative stuff.



"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."--Ghandi

Quote:

"These are all people who have lost their way. They must be shown, through love and compassion, the error of their ways."

spoken like a sheltered white male american. tell that to the jews. tell that to the natives. tell it to anyone who has actually had to live under hell. before you wave india as an example of what compassion can accomplish, consider the hellish years of colonialism and the current pitiful state of their nation. they've been working on this "compassion" thing for thousands of years.



What about the Jews? What about the Natives? What has their anger accomplished? Nothing. Not a goddamn thing.

Quote:

"And what would that accomplish? "

justice. something you obviously don't care about in the face of a much easier answer: apathy. erm, I mean "compassion".



FOR THE LAST TIME, I AM NOT ADVOCATING APATHY! Stop putting words in my mouth. Apathy is the opposite of love.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916064 - 09/14/03 05:05 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.





I can cite many instances where love has gotten in the way of judgement.Love is a personal emotion as well.




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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1916082 - 09/14/03 05:09 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

But I know for a fact that a baby hitler does not reside in me.





Wow. You've never had a fantasy about blowing away that bully that used to pick on you in junior high, or becoming a vigilante? Nothing along those lines? You are truly one in a million- I salute you, sir!


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1916090 - 09/14/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.





I can cite many instances where love has gotten in the way of judgement.Love is a personal emotion as well.



I think you may be thinking of a different kind of love than I am talking about. I am talking about a universal love for all of creation, not a personal love for a particular person. It is an unconditional love that is not affected by anyone's actions. It is along the lines of the love that Jesus preached about.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1916092 - 09/14/03 05:15 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Quote:

But I know for a fact that a baby hitler does not reside in me.





Wow. You've never had a fantasy about blowing away that bully that used to pick on you in junior high, or becoming a vigilante? Nothing along those lines? You are truly one in a million- I salute you, sir!





First of all smartass, I was never picked on.People left me alone for the most part.

Secondly, Childish fantasies of revenge in no way compare to what hitler did.




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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916102 - 09/14/03 05:17 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:I think you may be thinking of a different kind of love than I am talking about. I am talking about a universal love for all of creation, not a personal love for a particular person. It is an unconditional love that is not affected by anyone's actions. It is along the lines of the love that Jesus preached about.





I see what you are saying. It would start with loving yourself fully, I guess.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1916104 - 09/14/03 05:17 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

The point is that we are all capable, given the right circumstances, of the kind of evil on the level of what Hitler did.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916111 - 09/14/03 05:19 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The point is that we are all capable, given the right circumstances, of the kind of evil on the level of what Hitler did.





I disagree. Please give an example.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

Edited by sirreal (09/14/03 05:20 PM)

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1916118 - 09/14/03 05:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

It's hard to give an example of what might have been. I'm saying that, had you had an entirely different upbringing, indoctrinated with different values, and treated violently, you might have less respect for human life, and be more capable of evil.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916125 - 09/14/03 05:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
It's hard to give an example of what might have been.





You said we are all capable of that kind of evil. I am who I am, and I am not capable of that kind of evil.Regardless of what "could have been".


Quote:

I'm saying that, had you had an entirely different upbringing, indoctrinated with different values, and treated violently, you might have less respect for human life, and be more capable of evil.




I was treated violently and with no respect while growing up. But I still respect life.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1916147 - 09/14/03 05:38 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

First of all smartass, I was never picked on.People left me alone for the most part.





Sorry if you thought I was being a smartass, just a little tongue in cheek humor there bro. Ok so you weren't picked on. Nice dodge. I wasn't talking about that specifically which is why I said "anything along those lines?" I mean come on, are you saying no one has ever done anything negative towards you in your whole life, and you didn't have even a fleeting thought of revenge?

Quote:

Secondly, Childish fantasies of revenge in no way compare to what hitler did.





Of course not. But the seed is still there. Just because you choose not to water it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Childish fantasies become adult fantasies if nurtured and eventually become reality.

Personally I'm well aware of my inner Hitler. And I like it that way because someone needs to keep an eye on him! If I don't watch out for him he can function in the dark which is where he thrives.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1916148 - 09/14/03 05:38 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I guess I cannot make a good example for you, since I do not know your life story. However, my point is that we are products of our experiences. Those who commit evil acts were not born evil. They usually had significant experiences which led them to follow the path of destruction. Usually, this path is composed of hatred and vengeance. Many violent people are angry at the world for the way they have been treated, and seek to exact revenge upon it.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1916183 - 09/14/03 05:55 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:
Sorry if you thought I was being a smartass, just a little tongue in cheek humor there bro.





:cool:  (Man, I love this emoticon)


Quote:

Ok so you weren't picked on. Nice dodge. I wasn't talking about that specifically which is why I said "anything along those lines?" I mean come on, are you saying no one has ever done anything negative towards you in your whole life, and you didn't have even a fleeting thought of revenge?





Sure I have had alot of negative things happen to me.And a "fleeting thought of revenge" is something entirely different than mass genocide. I hardly think hitlers insanity started with a fleeting thought of revenge.


Quote:

  the seed is still there. Just because you choose not to water it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Childish fantasies become adult fantasies if nurtured and eventually become reality.





You choose wether or not to nurture them, do you not?

Quote:

Personally I'm well aware of my inner Hitler. And I like it that way because someone needs to keep an eye on him! If I don't watch out for him he can function in the dark which is where he thrives. 





I am not aware of any hitler in me and I hardly think I will end up commiting mass murder.

I see what you are saying though. I just disagree. 


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916190 - 09/14/03 06:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
I guess I cannot make a good example for you, since I do not know your life story.  However, my point is that we are products of our experiences.





Not quite. We are a product of how we react to our environment.This could get complicated. :tongue:
 

Quote:

Many violent people are angry at the world for the way they have been treated, and seek to exact revenge upon it. 





Some people are angry at the world and seek to change it. 


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916458 - 09/14/03 07:45 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

By assuming that the means justify the ends, you become willing to do evil things to counter evil.
 




silly rabbit... tricks are for kids.  if the means JUSTIFY the ends, then they aren't "evil" at all, hence using the word justify.  sad.

Quote:

Whene we fight, we must do so for the greater good, and to strive for the greater good is an act of love, not hate. Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.




oh, you're obviously a real warrior.  so the next time you're killing someone, make sure to do it with "love" in your heart, not malice or the dredded "hate", oh no, that would just cloud your judgement.  perhaps you could fight with roses and puppy dogs instead of guns and propaganda, too?  the hippies sure showed the media/military/industrial complex who was boss with the flowers and peace signs and dope smoking... just keep up the good work man, I'm sure the status quo give 2 shits how much love is in your heart. 

my point is not to belittle you, just to make clear that this is how humanity works.  you define an objective, then you use coercive techniques to reach that end- because until we have a society of philosopers, coercion is the only method to enact change- and coercion isn't lovely nor nice nor happy nor compassionate, it's mean.  it's hateful.  of course, if change ever does come about, and the academy gains REAL power, and society is transformed into a philosophy/art colony type utopia, well sure, then we can all sing "love is all you need" together.  but hey man, lennon is dead, and I want the people who killed him to pay, and to stop existing.  I hate because I actually know what "love" means.  it means sacrifice and responsibility and doing icky things that are ostensibly "hate" filled that people like you can't stomach. I hate liars, I hate murders, I hate bush, etc, because I really really love that beatles song, and I dream of a time when the chorus will actually be true.  I'd like love to be all that's needed, but I'd have to lie to myself to believe it in this time and place.

Quote:

See above comment




see my above comment.  see also the squalor that indians live in on most every res in the country.  see the difference in levels of activism between the reservations with money/casinos and those that don't.  the ones with money can afford to focus on the "peaceful" "loving" tasks of raising kids and putting on nice pow wows and enjoying life in general.  the poor ones don't have that luxury, so they protest, they stage armed revolutions, they fight and they hate.

Quote:

  I would call that "Western culture," rather than "white culture," since there are many predominantly white areas of the world with a very different culture.




that makes no sense.  brazil = dominate/ western culture?  native american = "western" culture?  black culture = "western" culture?  hippie culture = "western"?  no... I think that I specified AMERICAN dominate culture, and that is undeniably WHITE.  fuck, what's "white" culture in europe? the term has no real meaning there, it's all just class struggle.  it has a meaning here, which is a big reason why europe considers america so morally deviant.

Quote:

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."--Ghandi




oh, I knew the one liners were on the way.  ghandi didn't save his people, he just shifted the oppressor.  look, I've got east indian friends, and they came to america for a reason: not overall culture, but the specific part of american philosophy that is being assaulted on all sides: the american dedication to JUSTICE FOR ALL.  your relativism is what is undoing this (and, of course, the insistance of the moral majority on basing rule of law on a christian ethic- once it's based on rational informed consent, things will be much more just- still, even as it is, the commitmet to justice in america is more than most places dominated by "loving" ethics like you espouse).

Quote:


What about the Jews? What about the Natives? What has their anger accomplished? Nothing. Not a goddamn thing.





that it complete bullshit.  it's funny how you pose like you're an activist, when really you're just trying as hard as you can to support the status quo.  the jews have done a bang up job of keeping the holocost remembered, enough so that they can and do often use anti-semitism as an excuse to do whatever the fuck they want (see: east, middle) and the natives have gotten some really nice grants, free rides at public universities, land, and don't forget the casinos.  it'd be really nice if hawaiians could get half the appeasments that the natives have gotten, but the ethic of hawaii is to much love, too much "aloha" spirit and not enough indignation, anger, and hate.  look at how civil rights was helped immeasurably by the buring of watts.  we're not old enough to remember, but what they leave out in the histories is that white america was  shitting itself in fear of all the angry negroes burning cities.  that, I think, and angry rehetoric from malcolm X et al did WAYYY more to help the black situ than did martin luther king's peace trip.  the white/ dominate culture of today only glorifies king though, and slanders jesse jackson (an angry black man, something that has always scared the white masses).

Quote:

FOR THE LAST TIME, I AM NOT ADVOCATING APATHY! Stop putting words in my mouth. Apathy is the opposite of love.





is it?  prove it.  cause when I'm "in love" (or at least when I think I am...but that's a different thread :smile:) all I want to do is lay in bed with my girl, maybe cook up some good colorful food for her, smoke some grass, chat about this and that, and make love.  activism is the last thing in my mind, my money and time and focus goes to planning fun things to do with her, etc etc. 

who gets riled up over love?  in a manner, as I explained above, hate springs from love, but love does not directly lead to action, love leads to hate which leads to action.



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916466 - 09/14/03 07:49 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
The point is that we are all capable, given the right circumstances, of the kind of evil on the level of what Hitler did. 




Ha!  and you have the audacity to call ME relative for justifying means?  :lol:

that is the most relativistic statement I've ever heard.  might be true though. I hope not.  :noway:


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1916548 - 09/14/03 08:12 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

oh, and I'd also like to point out that the use of "humanity" as a reason for compassion, you seem to be refering to an ethical standard represented by "humanness". I deny that this ethic is biologically intrinsitc to homo sapiens, rather that it is a mark of nobility. to be a full, actualized HUMAN is a goal, not a constant.

of course, since you're arguing on some nebulous "spiritual" grounds, your retort would be "well, god gave us all SOULS, so that's all that counts". to which I reply: to me, a soul is an earned thing. this is why a "good life" is, in every religious tradition, required for "enlightenment" or "immortality". I accept neither motives, as I have reason to believe that the real reason to lead a good life is so that you can become the realization of an immortal archetype, in essence, you must be virtuous in order to truly exist- you must earn your soul, your humanity.


--------------------
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1916612 - 09/14/03 08:44 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
Quote:

By assuming that the means justify the ends, you become willing to do evil things to counter evil.
 




silly rabbit... tricks are for kids.  if the means JUSTIFY the ends, then they aren't "evil" at all, hence using the word justify.  sad.

Quote:

Whene we fight, we must do so for the greater good, and to strive for the greater good is an act of love, not hate. Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.




oh, you're obviously a real warrior.  so the next time you're killing someone, make sure to do it with "love" in your heart, not malice or the dredded "hate", oh no, that would just cloud your judgement.  perhaps you could fight with roses and puppy dogs instead of guns and propaganda, too?  the hippies sure showed the media/military/industrial complex who was boss with the flowers and peace signs and dope smoking... just keep up the good work man, I'm sure the status quo give 2 shits how much love is in your heart. 

my point is not to belittle you, just to make clear that this is how humanity works.  you define an objective, then you use coercive techniques to reach that end- because until we have a society of philosopers, coercion is the only method to enact change- and coercion isn't lovely nor nice nor happy nor compassionate, it's mean.  it's hateful.  of course, if change ever does come about, and the academy gains REAL power, and society is transformed into a philosophy/art colony type utopia, well sure, then we can all sing "love is all you need" together.  but hey man, lennon is dead, and I want the people who killed him to pay, and to stop existing.  I hate because I actually know what "love" means.  it means sacrifice and responsibility and doing icky things that are ostensibly "hate" filled that people like you can't stomach. I hate liars, I hate murders, I hate bush, etc, because I really really love that beatles song, and I dream of a time when the chorus will actually be true.  I'd like love to be all that's needed, but I'd have to lie to myself to believe it in this time and place.



Based on what you've said, I'd say you haven't the slightest clue what "love" means, at least in the context that I'm using.

Quote:

Quote:

See above comment




see my above comment.  see also the squalor that indians live in on most every res in the country.  see the difference in levels of activism between the reservations with money/casinos and those that don't.  the ones with money can afford to focus on the "peaceful" "loving" tasks of raising kids and putting on nice pow wows and enjoying life in general.  the poor ones don't have that luxury, so they protest, they stage armed revolutions, they fight and they hate.



Seeking justice does not require hate, and I'm sure many of them do not do so with hate in their hearts.

Quote:

Quote:


What about the Jews? What about the Natives? What has their anger accomplished? Nothing. Not a goddamn thing.





that it complete bullshit.  it's funny how you pose like you're an activist, when really you're just trying as hard as you can to support the status quo.  the jews have done a bang up job of keeping the holocost remembered, enough so that they can and do often use anti-semitism as an excuse to do whatever the fuck they want (see: east, middle) and the natives have gotten some really nice grants, free rides at public universities, land, and don't forget the casinos.  it'd be really nice if hawaiians could get half the appeasments that the natives have gotten, but the ethic of hawaii is to much love, too much "aloha" spirit and not enough indignation, anger, and hate.  look at how civil rights was helped immeasurably by the buring of watts.  we're not old enough to remember, but what they leave out in the histories is that white america was  shitting itself in fear of all the angry negroes burning cities.  that, I think, and angry rehetoric from malcolm X et al did WAYYY more to help the black situ than did martin luther king's peace trip.  the white/ dominate culture of today only glorifies king though, and slanders jesse jackson (an angry black man, something that has always scared the white masses).



I am not supporting the status quo.  Being an activist does not require hate.  Every change I seek in the world, I seek because I love the world and want it to be a better place for all.  That is not hate.  That is love.  BTW, Martin Luther King did a lot to get the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed.  I can't think of any policy changes Malcom X brought about.  All he did was preach to a bunch of angry black men.

Quote:

Quote:

FOR THE LAST TIME, I AM NOT ADVOCATING APATHY! Stop putting words in my mouth. Apathy is the opposite of love.





is it?  prove it.  cause when I'm "in love" (or at least when I think I am...but that's a different thread :smile:) all I want to do is lay in bed with my girl, maybe cook up some good colorful food for her, smoke some grass, chat about this and that, and make love.  activism is the last thing in my mind, my money and time and focus goes to planning fun things to do with her, etc etc. 

who gets riled up over love?  in a manner, as I explained above, hate springs from love, but love does not directly lead to action, love leads to hate which leads to action.



As I explained earlier, you are talking about a completely different kind of "love" than what I'm talking about.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1916626 - 09/14/03 08:49 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
oh, and I'd also like to point out that the use of "humanity" as a reason for compassion, you seem to be refering to an ethical standard represented by "humanness". I deny that this ethic is biologically intrinsitc to homo sapiens, rather that it is a mark of nobility. to be a full, actualized HUMAN is a goal, not a constant.

of course, since you're arguing on some nebulous "spiritual" grounds, your retort would be "well, god gave us all SOULS, so that's all that counts". to which I reply: to me, a soul is an earned thing. this is why a "good life" is, in every religious tradition, required for "enlightenment" or "immortality". I accept neither motives, as I have reason to believe that the real reason to lead a good life is so that you can become the realization of an immortal archetype, in essence, you must be virtuous in order to truly exist- you must earn your soul, your humanity.



I don't just love "humanity." I love all creation. I guess it is impossible for someone to convince someone so filled with hate as yourself to accept the intrinsic beauty of all things. Anyway, I advocate compassion not only because of the intrinsic inner beauty of all things, but because it is the only way of stopping the destructive cycle of hate.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916892 - 09/14/03 10:40 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

wow, obviously you're just too full of love to even bother to read what I posted. my loss, right?

perhaps you could be bothered to inject a small modicum of actual content inbetween your speculative accusations?

here, at least read this part-

"who gets riled up over love? in a manner, as I explained above, hate springs from love, but love does not directly lead to action, love leads to hate which leads to action."

I doubt you'll go back to actually read my post, see the merit in it, and engage in an honest exchange of ideas. no, it seems clear at this point that all you are interested in hearing is confirmation that your black and white, overly simplistic, and laughably politically correct "love everyone" ethic is "right".

well, it's not. you're just regurgitating what everyone is told to think in public schools, relative tripe.



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1916979 - 09/14/03 11:08 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Love doesn't have to lead to hate in order to lead to action.  I read your post, so don't say I didn't just because I happen to disagree.  I'm tired of your condescending attitude, but I love you anyways. :wink:


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1916989 - 09/14/03 11:15 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"so filled with hate as yourself"

yeah, you're a real lover. keep trying to convince yourself.... to the detriment of those you "love".

I'm really not lying to you man, unconverted love is essentially apathetic in nature. if you disagree, like I said, give me a REASON rather than just copping out with a "well, this is my opinion" one liner. seriously, you're not thinking coherently, and I'm not saying this because I feel threatened by your overwhelming compassion. I'm telling you this because I want your help.


--------------------
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917004 - 09/14/03 11:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

It is true that love by itself does nothing. That love must be combined with ACTION, but not hatred. Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jesus, Buddha--these people all changed the world through love, and more importantly COMPASSION. It's true that love is not necessary to bring about change, but if used as a guiding force, this love, combined with compassion and a desire for justice(NOT vengeance), can keep you from the path of destruction.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917005 - 09/14/03 11:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"It is an unconditional love that is not affected by anyone's actions. It is along the lines of the love that Jesus preached about."

lets look into that example. jesus's followers were too craven to fight for him. his followers then proceeded to totally fuck up the world in his name. now we have you here telling us to follow his example. hmm....

perhaps the old testament's vengeful god wasn't so misplaced after all? could it be that the "savage" gods of war are at least as worthy as this jesus cat? could it be that this emphasis on valueless love is favored by the status quo because it frees them from the responsibility of fighting for what is right? or perhaps that people cling to this sort of thing as a way to escape dealing with personal failings - "jesus loves me, so it doesn't matter what I do" type thing?

or that it's just an easier and softer way than the hard and grim way of the warrior?


--------------------
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917016 - 09/14/03 11:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
"It is an unconditional love that is not affected by anyone's actions. It is along the lines of the love that Jesus preached about."

lets look into that example. jesus's followers were too craven to fight for him. his followers then proceeded to totally fuck up the world in his name. now we have you here telling us to follow his example. hmm....



Jesus' followers were too outnumbered in the early days of the Church to fight for him, tho many died for him, and these martyrs helped fuel the spread of the religion. Of course, as the church gained power, the message became more and more corrupted. It does not make sense to say that this is because his followers did not fight for him.

Quote:

perhaps the old testament's vengeful god wasn't so misplaced after all? could it be that the "savage" gods of war are at least as worthy as this jesus cat? could it be that this emphasis on valueless love is favored by the status quo because it frees them from the responsibility of fighting for what is right? or perhaps that people cling to this sort of thing as a way to escape dealing with personal failings - "jesus loves me, so it doesn't matter what I do" type thing?



Actually, the status quo seems to favor the "God is on our side" mentality, which is more along the lines of the Old Testament.

Quote:

or that it's just an easier and softer way than the hard and grim way of the warrior?



Even a warrior can act out of love and compassion, if that love and compassion manifests itself as a quest for justice.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1917069 - 09/14/03 11:42 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
It is true that love by itself does nothing.  That love must be combined with ACTION, but not hatred.  Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jesus, Buddha--these people all changed the world through love, and more importantly COMPASSION.  It's true that love is not necessary to bring about change, but if used as a guiding force, this love, combined with compassion and a desire for justice(NOT vengeance), can keep you from the path of destruction. 




so india is still in the shit can, blacks are still marginalized, and jesus... well, we all know how THAT turned out.  so what was your point again?

besides, I see no reason to believe that compassion and love (in fact, it's rather offensive) are some kind of tools to be used to reach a goal. people ought to love because that is what is good, not because love will keep them from the "path of destruction" or whatever fanciful notion you've got floating around up in the 'ol noggin. 

I sincerely believe that many people have the best of intentions, but that doesn't (nor should it) lead to construction.  rationality is what leads to construction.  good intentions lead to good intentions and perhaps some fuzzy feelings (not that I don't like warm fuzzies... as you lashed out at me by claiming- "full of hate" I believe was your stunning example of the transformative power of compassion and love.  don't you love it when you hold yourself up as the dispenser of a given concept, only to contradict it in the attempt to "prove" it?  :lol:).


--------------------
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1917123 - 09/14/03 11:59 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jesus' followers were too outnumbered in the early days of the Church to fight for him, tho many died for him, and these martyrs helped fuel the spread of the religion. Of course, as the church gained power, the message became more and more corrupted. It does not make sense to say that this is because his followers did not fight for him.




huh?  the "church" wasn't created until all of jesus's followers were long dead.  I was refering to the actual murder of jesus (you know, the betrayal and whatnot).  besides, the followers who started the church WHERE the "good guys", they consciously altered the partnership message to market the religion- a good idea, but doomed as all dogma is doomed to become merely appearance rather than reality.  this is why an acute sense of right and wrong is so necessary on an individual level, why quoting some long dead prophet doesn't help anyone.

Quote:

Actually, the status quo seems to favor the "God is on our side" mentality, which is more along the lines of the Old Testament.




nice way to not address the issue. did I say anything about god being on my side?  forget god, I want RIGHT on my side.  if god is worthwhile, he/she/it will be on the same side, not vice versa.  claiming that god is on everyone's side is to deny right/wrong, and no god of mine would ever do such a craven thing.

"Even a warrior can act out of love and compassion, if that love and compassion manifests itself as a quest for justice."

I agree.  however, hate is also a component of justice: hate for evil. I understand why you are so hesitant to accept this, as hate for evil has been the banner under which much injustice has been commited, but what you fail to consider is how often love and compassion have been used to further the same evil ends.

consider: who seeks "justice" but the vengeful?  why risk life and limb, sacrifice the opportunity to live a natural, peaceful, family oriented life to devote all focus to mucking around in the evil (for you must in order to battle it) but those who have felt the sting of injustice? 

my point is that not everyone ought to be a warrior, that those who choose to be warriors would naturally be those who seek retribution, as any normal, well adjusted person ought to seek love and compassion and those only.  who wants to hate, it's a fucking drag to be full of hate, love is soft and warm wereas hate is cold and harsh.  also it's a trap to fall into hate too far, as then you become it, become evil.  but to condemn the rational and natural hate that the true warrior feels towards his natural enemy, evil/injustice, is to comdemn the warrior him/herself and hence is wrong and shallow.  please don't do it, support the warrior for he/she is worthy of the support of those who are lucky enough not to be burdened with the fiery sword of justice, the burden of hate of the oppresssor.

everyone wants to just love, but it's not yet practical to do so.  certainly this is a just end to strive for, and hopefully one day all the warriors can come home and soak in the love, but now is not that time.  :frown:


--------------------
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917131 - 09/15/03 12:01 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

to clarify my point about jesus... in the "early days", there was no church authority, it wasn't even called "christianity", I believe it was just called "the way" or some such. so of course it was the followers who changed jesus's message, like I said, to reach a wider audience.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917271 - 09/15/03 01:02 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
so india is still in the shit can, blacks are still marginalized, and jesus... well, we all know how THAT turned out.  so what was your point again?



But PROGRESS was made by each of them.  Sure, they weren't perfect and their work is still incomplete, but they made progress, and that's what's important.

Quote:

besides, I see no reason to believe that compassion and love (in fact, it's rather offensive) are some kind of tools to be used to reach a goal. people ought to love because that is what is good, not because love will keep them from the "path of destruction" or whatever fanciful notion you've got floating around up in the 'ol noggin.



It's not so much that they are what is required to achieve a goal, but it keeps us doing things for the right reasons.  As for the "path of destruction," I was referring to the cycle of violence, as seen between the Israelis and Palestinians.

Quote:

I sincerely believe that many people have the best of intentions, but that doesn't (nor should it) lead to construction.  rationality is what leads to construction.  good intentions lead to good intentions and perhaps some fuzzy feelings (not that I don't like warm fuzzies... as you lashed out at me by claiming- "full of hate" I believe was your stunning example of the transformative power of compassion and love.  don't you love it when you hold yourself up as the dispenser of a given concept, only to contradict it in the attempt to "prove" it?  :lol:). 



My statement that you were full of hate was not lashing out.  It was a sad observation.  And love and compassion don't mean you have to tolerate the status quo.  Hell, I don't even have to like you(and believe me--I don't) in order to practice love and compassion towards you.  I am practicing it by sharing the wisdom I have gathered in my life, partly through psychedelics, and partly through life experience.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1917282 - 09/15/03 01:10 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

But PROGRESS was made by each of them. Sure, they weren't perfect and their work is still incomplete, but they made progress, and that's what's important.




Good observation. I think the effects of love and compassion are seen more in smaller groups than large societies, but they still can have a positive effect on large groups of people.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917291 - 09/15/03 01:15 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
Quote:

Jesus' followers were too outnumbered in the early days of the Church to fight for him, tho many died for him, and these martyrs helped fuel the spread of the religion. Of course, as the church gained power, the message became more and more corrupted. It does not make sense to say that this is because his followers did not fight for him.




huh?  the "church" wasn't created until all of jesus's followers were long dead.  I was refering to the actual murder of jesus (you know, the betrayal and whatnot).  besides, the followers who started the church WHERE the "good guys", they consciously altered the partnership message to market the religion- a good idea, but doomed as all dogma is doomed to become merely appearance rather than reality.  this is why an acute sense of right and wrong is so necessary on an individual level, why quoting some long dead prophet doesn't help anyone.



No argument here

Quote:

Quote:

Actually, the status quo seems to favor the "God is on our side" mentality, which is more along the lines of the Old Testament.




nice way to not address the issue. did I say anything about god being on my side?  forget god, I want RIGHT on my side.  if god is worthwhile, he/she/it will be on the same side, not vice versa.  claiming that god is on everyone's side is to deny right/wrong, and no god of mine would ever do such a craven thing.



I wasn't saying that YOU said that.  I'm saying that that seems to be the mentality of the status quo.

Quote:

"Even a warrior can act out of love and compassion, if that love and compassion manifests itself as a quest for justice."

I agree.  however, hate is also a component of justice: hate for evil. I understand why you are so hesitant to accept this, as hate for evil has been the banner under which much injustice has been commited, but what you fail to consider is how often love and compassion have been used to further the same evil ends.



I suppose I agree with you to a certain extent.  We must not be tolerant of evil.  But to hate evil does not require that we hate those who commit evil.  I hate to sound like some Jesus freak, but it's best to "hate the sin, not the sinner."  Compassion is about understanding how others can be led astray, and caring about them to try to lead them towards love and forgiveness, and if not, to at least prevent them from being any more destructive.  Understand that this is done out of love for them and others.

Quote:

consider: who seeks "justice" but the vengeful?  why risk life and limb, sacrifice the opportunity to live a natural, peaceful, family oriented life to devote all focus to mucking around in the evil (for you must in order to battle it) but those who have felt the sting of injustice?



No.  The vengeful seek vengeance and mislabel it as "justice."  Vengeance is a personal thing.  Justice is a more universal thing.  Mistreating the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay is not justice.  It is vengeance.

Quote:

my point is that not everyone ought to be a warrior, that those who choose to be warriors would naturally be those who seek retribution, as any normal, well adjusted person ought to seek love and compassion and those only.  who wants to hate, it's a fucking drag to be full of hate, love is soft and warm wereas hate is cold and harsh.  also it's a trap to fall into hate too far, as then you become it, become evil.  but to condemn the rational and natural hate that the true warrior feels towards his natural enemy, evil/injustice, is to comdemn the warrior him/herself and hence is wrong and shallow.  please don't do it, support the warrior for he/she is worthy of the support of those who are lucky enough not to be burdened with the fiery sword of justice, the burden of hate of the oppresssor.



I now concede the point that it is right to hate evil, but not those who carry it out.

Quote:

everyone wants to just love, but it's not yet practical to do so.  certainly this is a just end to strive for, and hopefully one day all the warriors can come home and soak in the love, but now is not that time.  :frown: 



Love comes from within.  It is timeless.  We need no love from others in order to show love to others.  It begins with loving yourself.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineAldous
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917396 - 09/15/03 03:16 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
this is how humanity works. you define an objective, then you use coercive techniques to reach that end- because until we have a society of philosopers, coercion is the only method to enact change- and coercion isn't lovely nor nice nor happy nor compassionate, it's mean. it's hateful. of course, if change ever does come about, and the academy gains REAL power, and society is transformed into a philosophy/art colony type utopia, well sure, then we can all sing "love is all you need" together.


This can be summarized as: the end justifies the means, which is what you are trying to support throughout your posts.
IMO, this statement is a misgiving. That's why all revolutions have hitherto blatantly failed.

Huxley thought a lot about these issues ("Eyeless in Gaza" is my most vivid recollection of the theme), and I would follow him in reversing the saying: "the means determine the end". If you go about killing and imprisoning people in order to establish a world of peace and harmony, you shouldn't wonder why it's not going to work. Your brave new world will be and remain filled with death, hate and sorrow, because you used the wrong means to achieve it. Harmony cannot stem from violence and murder.

Violence is the easy way, but it doesn't work. Love and compassion is the hard (and the only) way. It works, but it takes ages. We've hardly even started.

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OfflineAldous
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1917402 - 09/15/03 03:23 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
I was referring to the actual murder of jesus (you know, the betrayal and whatnot).


Well, I thought his followers actually tried to fight his arrest, but he prevented them. I think (not a specialist) it was Peter who picked up a sword and chopped off a Roman officer's ear. Jesus then promptly put the ear back in place (a cool little miracle en passant) and told Peter something along the lines of: "he who uses the sword shall perish through the sword". Another way to say: "the means determine the end".  :wink: 

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1917465 - 09/15/03 05:03 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Damn, I sure did miss out on this one... I still think my dream about going to some foreign country (I believe Spain, for whatever reason) and walking through a marijuana field and ending up getting all sorts of marijuana in different colours was a LOT more important than this.. :grin:

The means determine the end. Definitely. He who fights by the sword dies by the sword. Killing and imprisoning people in the name of peace and justice isn't going to bring about world peace. And, neither is going out in the streets and fighting this force...

Changing the system can only be done from outside the system. If.. say... there is a terrorist force blowing up shit, blowing up their shit isn't exactly going to make them stop. And, if we decide to kill them all, so there isn't that force to threaten our "peace", then our actions are sure to be considered the same as their original actions by another force and, thus, the spiral begins...

Their are basically two forces in this world. You can't fight love with hate, and you can't fight hate with love... You can take hate and justify it and fight hate, but be prepared for the spiral downwards...

Let's imagine that we are all at Point A. Let's say that there is this other place, Point B, which comes with complete happiness, justice, and unparalled peace... Point C is complete destruction, the absence of life or anything good at all. We basically get to choose which point we wish to move to.

The catch is that any step out of anger, hatred, no matter how justified, moves us farther from Point A and towards Point C. Any step made out of love, justice, peace makes us one step closer to Point B.

Point B is directly to the left of Point A, Point C is directly to the right of Point A. Only one or the other, and it is our steps that get us to where we are going.. We just can't be magically transported to Point B after running towards Point C, even if we justify our steps towards Point C as getting us to Point B.. it just doesn't work like that! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
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Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Learyfan]
    #1917657 - 09/15/03 08:30 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Understand that your enemy is simply yourself playing the part of another human who represents something that you feel is bad, but don't let that person do that bad thing.



Wise words!

Loving the enemy doesn't mean that you should trust him and treat him like your best buddy. That can be extremely foolish and destructive. I think loving the enemy means that you should see him as a potential friend and not give up hope.

Violence is sometimes necessary in a conflict, but anger and hate are not. Anger and hate are just emotional tools that are used to lower the threshold for violence, and this is what makes these emotions dangerous. They have many negative side effects as well.

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1917725 - 09/15/03 09:27 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

EVERYBODY HAS THE POTENITAL TO BE GREAT NO MATTER HOW OR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE TREAT THEM LIKE A STAR HELP THEM TO UNDERSTAND CHANGE, AND UNDERSTAND THAT RELIGION IS TRUTH, AND MOST OF ALL LOVE EVERYBODY UNCONDITIONALLY


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: spudamore]
    #1917866 - 09/15/03 10:47 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I'm with you until you got to the "religion is truth" part. Religion is of man, spirituality is of God. Religion can contain truth, but is far too often a repressive force for spiritual people.

And stop shouting please.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1919176 - 09/15/03 06:29 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

sorry i was a bit tired i meant to say religion is not truth, i should proof read it before i send


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1919719 - 09/15/03 08:57 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

But PROGRESS was made by each of them. Sure, they weren't perfect and their work is still incomplete, but they made progress, and that's what's important.




maybe to you, but all the young east indians I talk to don't think the "progress" you speak of means shit.  you know how many east indian engineers there are?  a fuckload.  you know how much that helps india?  not a fuckload.  besides, you can't just wipe away years and years of injustice.  these things must be righted, or else more people will die, and more hate will grow.  focused hate is needed to nip the larger hate flower at the bud.

Quote:

It's not so much that they are what is required to achieve a goal, but it keeps us doing things for the right reasons. As for the "path of destruction," I was referring to the cycle of violence, as seen between the Israelis and Palestinians. 




yeah, I figured as much.  if a goal is just, what does it matter if it is achieved through hate or a "love" that requires violence?  seems like you're begging the question.  what kind of "love" is a killing love?  certainly no all emcompassing "compassionate" love, but a love tempered in the flames of hatred.
as for the middle east... this is not a place that needs more love or hate.  there is so much love on both sides (love for their damned gods, but who am I to judge) that there can't be anything but hate.  what the mid east needs in some rational thinking, compromise.  other places need fighting, however- no necessarily violent fighting, (though in some placed this is necessary) but legal, cultural, economic, verbal/debative fighting.  fueled by directed anger and hate.

Quote:

My statement that you were full of hate was not lashing out. It was a sad observation. And love and compassion don't mean you have to tolerate the status quo. Hell, I don't even have to like you(and believe me--I don't) in order to practice love and compassion towards you. I am practicing it by sharing the wisdom I have gathered in my life, partly through psychedelics, and partly through life experience. 




oooh you're soooo wise.  please help me oh swami. you're absolutely right that I'm full of hate, and obsolutely lying in claiming that it wasn't a spiteful jab.  who likes being hateful?  I don't.  my hate, however, doesn't care if I like being hateful or not, it just is.  and your trite easy answer of "just love everyone" does nothing but make the hate grow.  I hate liars, especially when they're sooo goddamn self righteous. 
see, I can call you self righteous because of your laughbaly preachy (and, of couse, intellectually insubstantial) tone.  sure, you can do the same with my hate. 
the difference between me and you, what makes you a liar and a hypocrite, is that I am just commenting on what is real and evident from this conversation.  your "dislike" of me is just as meaningless and ludicrous as your "love and compassion" towards my person. 
how the hell would you know if you would get along with me?  you don't, you're just resorting to little kiddie personal attacks because I've completely demolished your oh so weak argument (if you could call it that... most arguements have actual GROUNDS, politically correct one-liners picked up from a cursory pop understanding of "eastern" religion really doesn't cut it... but it's fun to tear posers apart :smile: ).

truth be told, you "activist" types love to hang on to my coat tails in real life, just like you do to gays, poets, the poor, and cripples.  you lack any true REASON (see: hate) for a passionate crusade, so you latch onto others passion. ok, maybe you're kinda poor, but I doubt it's anything worth writing about, as you live in america and own a computer.

besides, I'm a VERY happy person, so much so that it's infectious.  I didn't used to be, but now that I've come to terms with my hate/purpose I am free to enjoy life as it comes, secure in the knowledge that I am channeling my passion, my anger, even my "hate" into persuits that will help those that I LOVE.  so fuck you for your hateful and petty comments, how dare you question the authenticity of my love when it is so very clear how false and superficial your conception of "love" really is.  obviously you don't love anyone or anything enough to suffer the discomfort of recognizing your hate (if you actually do have any... it's likely that your "activist" front is just a game to gain petty social standing) and channeling it.  instead you will just lie, lie, and lie, pretending that love is so meaningless as to not require sacrifice- and contrast.
 


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1919806 - 09/15/03 09:22 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Aldous said:
Quote:

Malachi said:
this is how humanity works. you define an objective, then you use coercive techniques to reach that end- because until we have a society of philosopers, coercion is the only method to enact change- and coercion isn't lovely nor nice nor happy nor compassionate, it's mean. it's hateful. of course, if change ever does come about, and the academy gains REAL power, and society is transformed into a philosophy/art colony type utopia, well sure, then we can all sing "love is all you need" together.


This can be summarized as: the end justifies the means, which is what you are trying to support throughout your posts.
IMO, this statement is a misgiving. That's why all revolutions have hitherto blatantly failed.

Huxley thought a lot about these issues ("Eyeless in Gaza" is my most vivid recollection of the theme), and I would follow him in reversing the saying: "the means determine the end". If you go about killing and imprisoning people in order to establish a world of peace and harmony, you shouldn't wonder why it's not going to work. Your brave new world will be and remain filled with death, hate and sorrow, because you used the wrong means to achieve it. Harmony cannot stem from violence and murder.

Violence is the easy way, but it doesn't work. Love and compassion is the hard (and the only) way. It works, but it takes ages. We've hardly even started.





well maybe you have "ages" but I don't. of course harmony stems from violence, look at nature. what's more harmonious than the ecosystem?

the brave new world had no violence. the "savages" had violence. did you even read the book?

all revolutions have NOT failed. duh. like... the AMERICAN revolution. sure, it fucked a lot of people, but that's because the APPEARANCE of revolution continued long after the ACTUAL revolution ended. same in cuba, same in france. same in lots of places.

violence is "easy"? maybe if you're fighting on the side of evil (see: empire) but the true warrior is has ALWAYS been the underdog. go pick a fight with a cop, see how "easy" it is. you armchair philosophy is silly.

just to clarify... I hold love as a more primary value than hate, perhaps even the most primary value. what I am arguing for is the recognition of the necessity of hate, not violence- though I don't rule out violence either. most modern situations are better dealt with in a cunning, ruthless, and coercive manner, not a violent one. to further clarify: this is all predicated on the honest and rational attempt to distinguish reality from appearance, so going around "imprisoning" or "murdering" people obviously isn't what I'm endorsing. it's called killing, not "muder" when it's justified. no less gory, and no less hateful (despite what the state would like to say... execution is hateful). I'm talking about acheiving goals that will lead to a lovely soceity, not an orwellian doublespeak world of false appearance/reality.... this is what huxley is trying to tell us, that pretending like everything is ok isn't going to solve anything, that we must hold onto our passion, our humanity, our hate. we are animals, not spirits, and that's ok.


to quote dostoevsky:

"if man has not become more bloodthirsty as a result of civilization, he has certainly become bloodthirsty in a nastier, uglier way than before. Before, he used to regard bloodshed as a matter of justice, and he exterminated those who had to be destroyed with a clear conscience. But today, though we regard the spilling of blood as an abomination, we still engage in this abomination, and to a far greater extent than before."

I still consider bloodshed- and the required hate to spill said blood, (for to say that you spill blood out of love is begging the question and ignores the fact that the just hater hates because of a deeper love) to be a matter of justice. you people are indoctrinated into the valueless relativism that is soooo politically correct (see: apathy) in this culture, and I wish you'd all take a step back, risk the uncleanness of thinking in hateful terms, and truly consider what I am saying.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1919829 - 09/15/03 09:29 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

"I now concede the point that it is right to hate evil, but not those who carry it out."


ok, this begs the question.... but I'll roll with it anyway. I'm bored. 

who then is responsible for sin?  "the devil"?  :lol:

I will conceed that the ignorant and the retarded are not responsible, but this is simply not the case in most all sin.  this is why jesus is necessary for the christians.  to forgive the WILLFUL act of sinnning.  it's not someone elses fault, it's the sinners fault.

if it makes you feel better, I'll concede that:

"Love comes from within. It is timeless. We need no love from others in order to show love to others. It begins with loving yourself. "

not that that has anything to do with the arguments.... you're just padding your responses for lack of content.

"Understand that your enemy is simply yourself playing the part of another human who represents something that you feel is bad, but don't let that person do that bad thing."

no, my enemy isn't playing. my enemy is raping and murdering and lying, none of which is "part of me".  how would you propose we "don't let that person do that bad thing"?  since it's not a "game", I'm willing to do ANYTHING necessary.  and only someone who hates his enemy will do ANYTHING to stop him/her/it.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1919940 - 09/15/03 10:02 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
Quote:

But PROGRESS was made by each of them. Sure, they weren't perfect and their work is still incomplete, but they made progress, and that's what's important.




maybe to you, but all the young east indians I talk to don't think the "progress" you speak of means shit.  you know how many east indian engineers there are?  a fuckload.  you know how much that helps india?  not a fuckload.  besides, you can't just wipe away years and years of injustice.  these things must be righted, or else more people will die, and more hate will grow.  focused hate is needed to nip the larger hate flower at the bud.



Ok, then.  Who should the East Indians focus their hate on now that they have self-rule?

Quote:

Quote:

It's not so much that they are what is required to achieve a goal, but it keeps us doing things for the right reasons. As for the "path of destruction," I was referring to the cycle of violence, as seen between the Israelis and Palestinians. 




yeah, I figured as much.  if a goal is just, what does it matter if it is achieved through hate or a "love" that requires violence?  seems like you're begging the question.  what kind of "love" is a killing love?  certainly no all emcompassing "compassionate" love, but a love tempered in the flames of hatred.



No.  You mustn't kill out of hatred.  You kill because it is necessary, and you do so regretfully.  Otherwise you become like the enemy.

Quote:

as for the middle east... this is not a place that needs more love or hate.  there is so much love on both sides (love for their damned gods, but who am I to judge) that there can't be anything but hate.  what the mid east needs in some rational thinking, compromise.  other places need fighting, however- no necessarily violent fighting, (though in some placed this is necessary) but legal, cultural, economic, verbal/debative fighting.  fueled by directed anger and hate.



No argument here about the Middle East.  About the fighting, I agree with everything you said except the part about anger and hate.

Quote:

Quote:

My statement that you were full of hate was not lashing out. It was a sad observation. And love and compassion don't mean you have to tolerate the status quo. Hell, I don't even have to like you(and believe me--I don't) in order to practice love and compassion towards you. I am practicing it by sharing the wisdom I have gathered in my life, partly through psychedelics, and partly through life experience. 




oooh you're soooo wise.  please help me oh swami. you're absolutely right that I'm full of hate, and obsolutely lying in claiming that it wasn't a spiteful jab.  who likes being hateful?  I don't.  my hate, however, doesn't care if I like being hateful or not, it just is.  and your trite easy answer of "just love everyone" does nothing but make the hate grow.  I hate liars, especially when they're sooo goddamn self righteous. 



How am I liar?  Show me one place where I have lied.  BTW, if I were you, I wouldn't be talking about other people being self-righteous.

Quote:

the difference between me and you, what makes you a liar and a hypocrite, is that I am just commenting on what is real and evident from this conversation.  your "dislike" of me is just as meaningless and ludicrous as your "love and compassion" towards my person. 
how the hell would you know if you would get along with me?  you don't, you're just resorting to little kiddie personal attacks because I've completely demolished your oh so weak argument (if you could call it that... most arguements have actual GROUNDS, politically correct one-liners picked up from a cursory pop understanding of "eastern" religion really doesn't cut it... but it's fun to tear posers apart :smile: ).



I don't know if I would get along with you in person, but if act anywhere close in real life to the way you are on here, I am pretty confident that we wouldn't get along.  The only thing I said which was anything like a personal attack was my simple statement that I don't like you, which is true.  And I fail to see how you've demolished my argument except for the fact that I've conceded that it's ok to hate evil, which was simply a slight change in my stance.

Quote:

truth be told, you "activist" types love to hang on to my coat tails in real life, just like you do to gays, poets, the poor, and cripples.  you lack any true REASON (see: hate) for a passionate crusade, so you latch onto others passion. ok, maybe you're kinda poor, but I doubt it's anything worth writing about, as you live in america and own a computer.



*yawn* Tell me when the ad-hominem attacks are over.

Quote:

besides, I'm a VERY happy person, so much so that it's infectious.  I didn't used to be, but now that I've come to terms with my hate/purpose I am free to enjoy life as it comes, secure in the knowledge that I am channeling my passion, my anger, even my "hate" into persuits that will help those that I LOVE.  so fuck you for your hateful and petty comments, how dare you question the authenticity of my love when it is so very clear how false and superficial your conception of "love" really is.  obviously you don't love anyone or anything enough to suffer the discomfort of recognizing your hate (if you actually do have any... it's likely that your "activist" front is just a game to gain petty social standing) and channeling it.  instead you will just lie, lie, and lie, pretending that love is so meaningless as to not require sacrifice- and contrast.



I'm sorry for assuming you're a hateful person.  That's just how you come off on the internet with your constant attacks and put-downs.  You must feel like a big guy, huh?  Belittling others to make yourself feel superior.  Real mature.  Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to dignify your posts with responses.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinesirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1920005 - 09/15/03 10:23 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to dignify your posts with responses.





I am wondering the same thing.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1920032 - 09/15/03 10:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

we are animals, not spirits




Ah, but what if we are both? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Quote:

you people are indoctrinated into the valueless relativism




You people?

How is relativism valueless? Do you see things in black and white?


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OfflineAldous
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1920629 - 09/16/03 03:36 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
of course harmony stems from violence, look at nature. what's more harmonious than the ecosystem?


All right, we need to separate between 'hate' and 'violence' here. Without any emotions like love and hate (plants and animals have neither), harmony can stem from violence, like in the ecosystem. But the same does not go for humans, since we are both nature AND culture (I hope you recognize this, but I'm not so sure based on your posts). In human societies, I've never seen love derive out of hate.

Quote:

the brave new world had no violence. the "savages" had violence. did you even read the book?


I wasn't talking about the book 'Brave new world', I just used the phrase because we were talking about Huxley. I was talking about the brave new world which would arise from hate and 'the means justify the end'. And yes, I read the book. As for you, try to pick up 'Eyeless in Gaza'.

Quote:

all revolutions have NOT failed. duh. like... the AMERICAN revolution. sure, it fucked a lot of people, but that's because the APPEARANCE of revolution continued long after the ACTUAL revolution ended. same in cuba, same in france. same in lots of places.


Some progress was made by some revolutions, depends what they were after. In France and America, they weren't after justice for all, they just sought to replace one ruling class by another, which they succeeded in. And yes, the new ruling classes were somewhat larger than the previous ones, but they were still ruling classes.
In Cuba, the revolution failed, even if it brought much more justice and equality than was the case under the corrupt US-backed dictatorship. But the aim was communist paradise, harmony, and if that had been achieved, people wouldn't risk their lives on wooden rafts to flee the island. I really think the Cuban revolution would have failed even without being sabotaged by the US. There would have been prosperity, and that would have been distributed along the same lines as power is presently distributed in Cuba. Some for the masses, but the bulk for the ruling elite, like everywhere else. Some power systems are less unequal than others, but I've never seen power and true equality coexist.

Quote:

violence is "easy"? go pick a fight with a cop, see how "easy" it is.


Still easier than not resorting to violence when a cop picks a fight with you. Violence as a reaction is indeed the easy way.

Quote:

most modern situations are better dealt with in a cunning, ruthless, and coercive manner, not a violent one. [...] going around "imprisoning" or "murdering" people obviously isn't what I'm endorsing. it's called killing, not "muder" when it's justified.


Cunning, ruthless, coercive... but not violent, right? Killing, not murdering?
You are very creative with words, dude. Coercion equals violence, whichever way you turn it around.
Quote:

we are animals, not spirits, and that's ok.


Just like I said before. What about culture? We are animal-based, but we have evolved. Like I said, if you're capable of hate, you're no longer an animal.

Oh, and forgive me if I don't go to great lengths to have the last word after this, but I'm afraid this kind of debate, however interesting, is not very fruitful. Besides, I can't spend hours a day on my keyboard. But thanks anyway.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1920716 - 09/16/03 04:59 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Lalalalalala.. I can't heeearrrrrrr youuu....  :evil:
Peace.


--------------------
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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1921055 - 09/16/03 09:55 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

All right, we need to separate between 'hate' and 'violence' here. Without any emotions like love and hate (plants and animals have neither), harmony can stem from violence, like in the ecosystem. But the same does not go for humans, since we are both nature AND culture (I hope you recognize this, but I'm not so sure based on your posts). In human societies, I've never seen love derive out of hate




bullshit.  I have no reason not to believe that my animals feel both love and hate.  and I didn't claim that hate leads to love, but vice versa, love leads naturally to hate those that threaten love.

Quote:

I wasn't talking about the book 'Brave new world', I just used the phrase because we were talking about Huxley. I was talking about the brave new world which would arise from hate and 'the means justify the end'. And yes, I read the book. As for you, try to pick up 'Eyeless in Gaza'.




I don't know man... was this pre tripping huxley or post tripping huxley?  cause even though BNW was a good pre tripping book, I picked up point counter point once and it didn't really float my boat.  Island, on the other hand.... now THAT was right up my alley :smile:

Quote:

In France and America, they weren't after justice for all, they just sought to replace one ruling class by another, which they succeeded in. And yes, the new ruling classes were somewhat larger than the previous ones, but they were still ruling classes.
In Cuba, the revolution failed, even if it brought much more justice and equality than was the case under the corrupt US-backed dictatorship. But the aim was communist paradise, harmony, and if that had been achieved, people wouldn't risk their lives on wooden rafts to flee the island. I really think the Cuban revolution would have failed even without being sabotaged by the US. There would have been prosperity, and that would have been distributed along the same lines as power is presently distributed in Cuba. Some for the masses, but the bulk for the ruling elite, like everywhere else. Some power systems are less unequal than others, but I've never seen power and true equality coexist.





right, here is were the ability to distinguish appearance from reality comes in. the "revolution" was defeated while ostensibly it still went on - in france and america.  I don't want to go into cuba, too much typing.

Quote:

Still easier than not resorting to violence when a cop picks a fight with you. Violence as a reaction is indeed the easy way.




you seem to suggest that there is some other manner besides reaction for violence to exist.. care to explain?

Quote:

Cunning, ruthless, coercive... but not violent, right? Killing, not murdering?
You are very creative with words, dude. Coercion equals violence, whichever way you turn it around.





I make a subtle point, one you seem to be missing.

Quote:

Just like I said before. What about culture? We are animal-based, but we have evolved. Like I said, if you're capable of hate, you're no longer an animal.

Oh, and forgive me if I don't go to great lengths to have the last word after this, but I'm afraid this kind of debate, however interesting, is not very fruitful. Besides, I can't spend hours a day on my keyboard. But thanks anyway. 




culture is maleable.  I want it changed in a very specific manner, whereas most want to support the status quo (stating the obvious...).

oh, and nice cop out.  I work almost full time, go to school part time, and help my dad do all kinds of crazy building stuff.  so "time" isn't the issue, it's content.  yes, this is fruitful, at least for me.  I'm a philosophy major, so this shit is my bread and butter. :smile:

it's not about "getting the last word", I just want to here your views - very specifically, point by point. :wink:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
    #1921511 - 09/16/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ah, but what if we are both? Why does it have to be one or the other?




good point. all we know for sure is that we're animals, though, so I'd rather base assumptions/ speculation on that premise.

Quote:

You people?

How is relativism valueless? Do you see things in black and white?





whenever possible. if there are shades of grey, ultimately they are either more "white" or more "black" - there is a middle dividing line.

relativism prevents the formulation of ends, of goals, it prevents us from defining the "good life". this can be good, cause the "good life", at this point, is subjective at best, and I certainly don't want someone elses conception of it forced on me. this concern, however valid, isn't cause to stop defining "right" and "wrong", it's just cause to be very very careful to make sure that you aren't on the side of "wrong".

most would argue that we can never be sure enough if we are on the side of "right" enough to act on it. this is apathy, justified or not. I care, I love, enough to disregard the possiblity of error in favor of action, risking the outcome of finding myself in the wrong. the objectivists are stupid cause they don't recognize this huge room for error, they think "rationality" is enough to prevent error, their faith in it is ludicrous. the existentialists, however, recognize the possibility, the strong possibility, of this huge error, but they also realize that even if there is a "god", he can't help us see this error, it's up to us. perhaps some innate metaphysical "sense" of right/wrong is god's help.

regardless, whether it's god whispering into our souls or a rational decision, black must be distinguished from white. it seems that the only people who care to stick their moral necks out to do so are the malcontents, the angry and hateful (but by no means immoral) "underground men" of dostoevsky. this is why hate+love = necessary, why love+hate = action, whereas love alone = inaction.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1921518 - 09/16/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sirreal said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to dignify your posts with responses.





I am wondering the same thing.




well, you people are SUPPOSED to be on this board to exchange ideas. regardless of the speculative notions of how nice of a guy I am, I have been exchanging MUCH content in this thread. so fuck off if you can't handle it, I see this shit as a weak cop out.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1921524 - 09/16/03 12:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Well, if you're willing to engage in a CIVILIZED debate, without ad-hominem arguments and personal attacks, I'll be more than happy to do so.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1921527 - 09/16/03 12:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


"I now concede the point that it is right to hate evil, but not those who carry it out."


ok, this begs the question.... but I'll roll with it anyway. I'm bored.

who then is responsible for sin? "the devil"?

I will conceed that the ignorant and the retarded are not responsible, but this is simply not the case in most all sin. this is why jesus is necessary for the christians. to forgive the WILLFUL act of sinnning. it's not someone elses fault, it's the sinners fault.






this seems to me to be the crux of our disagreement. please address this issue.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1921544 - 09/16/03 12:39 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
Quote:


"I now concede the point that it is right to hate evil, but not those who carry it out."


ok, this begs the question.... but I'll roll with it anyway. I'm bored.

who then is responsible for sin? "the devil"?

I will conceed that the ignorant and the retarded are not responsible, but this is simply not the case in most all sin. this is why jesus is necessary for the christians. to forgive the WILLFUL act of sinnning. it's not someone elses fault, it's the sinners fault.






this seems to me to be the crux of our disagreement. please address this issue.



Very well, then. I'm a little out of it today, but I think I can handle this. I am not saying that sin is not the fault of the sinner. I am merely saying that hating them for losing their way accomplishes nothing. Fight against the evil that they are causing, but do not make it personal. When I talk about love, it's not so much love for the individual as much as a general love for the good of all creation. You do what is right because you love mankind and want what is best for all of us, not because you hate those who are committing evil acts. This is why I am against the death penalty. By killing them, you are going beyond what is necessary to stop them from killing, and are making it personal.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1921592 - 09/16/03 01:01 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
I didn't claim that hate leads to love


At least you claimed that coercion could lead to harmonious society, sorry for rephrasing.
Quote:

I don't know man... was this pre tripping huxley or post tripping huxley?  cause even though BNW was a good pre tripping book, I picked up point counter point once and it didn't really float my boat.  Island, on the other hand.... now THAT was right up my alley :smile:



Let's say it's late pre-tripping... After BNW. Point couter point was before. He was already into mysticism a bit, but still very interested in politics. Nevertheless, even if the book was shitty, I still would fully agree with the statement (which is only a paraphrase, I'm sure it never appears in the book) according to which the means determine the end. By the way, Island wasn't that great from a literary point of view, but it's still my favorite Huxley.
Quote:

Quote:

Still easier than not resorting to violence when a cop picks a fight with you. Violence as a reaction is indeed the easy way.


you seem to suggest that there is some other manner besides reaction for violence to exist.. care to explain?


Well no, sorry if I didn't make myself clear here. I meant violence as a reaction in that specific situation, but I think indeed that violence is always reaction, only not always to a present situation.

Quote:

I make a subtle point, one you seem to be missing.


Well, yeah, that's what happens when I debate above my intellectual level  :frown: 

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1921632 - 09/16/03 01:16 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

the only thing you need to think about is, "How would they treat me in a reverse situation?"

and your answer becomes clear

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: NapkinOfDoom]
    #1921652 - 09/16/03 01:25 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

NapkinOfDoom said:
the only thing you need to think about is, "How would they treat me in a reverse situation?"

and your answer becomes clear



Are you saying that we should display the same cruelty to them as they would to us? That would teach them nothing but more hatred towards us. If, on the other hand, we treat them with compassion(within reason), they might see the error of their ways.


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1921721 - 09/16/03 01:50 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

of course i would...

nothing is going to change the fact that they hate us...they've been raised from the womb to hate the white devil

i know a lot of arabic people that are cool and i've never had a problem with them....extremists are a completely different situation

they're not looking for a reason to hate us, they've already had so much propaganda shoved up their ass that nothing we say or do will ever change that...

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: NapkinOfDoom]
    #1921871 - 09/16/03 02:44 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

NapkinOfDoom said:
they're not looking for a reason to hate us, they've already had so much propaganda shoved up their ass that nothing we say or do will ever change that... 


While you, of course, have only been fed with pure truth. :rolleyes:
I guess they have reasons galore, which, however, doesn't justify or excuse their actions at all.
But this leads us more towards the political forum. 

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1923342 - 09/16/03 09:31 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

i'm not saying i support the "war on terror"...all i'm saying is that in the reverse situation they would show us no mercy

"show them no mercy...for you shall receive none"

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: NapkinOfDoom]
    #1924194 - 09/17/03 02:32 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Isn't it crazy to base your actions upon what your enemy, the one person or group you most despise, would do? I mean, you wouldn't take their actions as an example in any other situation, right? They're your enemy, you don't trust them, and you don't think what they do is right, or even sensible. Why is it then that in reacting to their actions, you decide to behave exactly the way they would?

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
    #1926419 - 09/17/03 07:43 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

ok... sorry I kinda took a dig from this fairly interesting thread, I've been working my ass off and in the meantime partying it up like a muthafucka... so... yeah.

anyway, I do have a bit more to add.

if the "haters" deserve compassion, this seems (to me) to suggest that they are filled with a false hatred, a misplaced passion rather than a true hatred.  "they don't know better" "they are filled with propaganda" "it's acculturated" "etc". 

I'll go along with this line of thought to a certain extent.  but if this is the case, what use is the word "hate"?  really it's all "confusion", not a justified "real" emotion, it's just a figment of some confused people's minds. 

so who can be labeled a "hater"? who truly understands the rules, the "playing field" if you will, who is not "confused"?

I'd say this would be the self actualized individual, or the "wise man".  therefore, "hate" ought to be the responsibility, the burden, of those who actually understand who/what is to be scorned, killed, exiled, hated.

also, just because in a "larger" sense we are "all one" and so the "evil" part of the whole is still a part of the whole, to me, doesn't justify not hating that part of the whole.  I don't care for the soggy parts of my sandwich. doesn't mean I don't like the sandwich.


btw... I don't support the war (duh), capital punishment, nor do I support most any organized "justice" movements, for exactly the same reason that (most of) you people feel everyone deserves compassion: the risk of injustice.  justice, in my mind, ought to be dealt BY THE JUDGE.  hiding behind a hangman is the peak of cowardice.  bush is the peak of hiding, the biggest craven, and I would LOVE to battle that little fuck the way "god" intended: face to face, man to man.  sure, this smacks of old western sentimentality, but what's sentiment besides an ethic, a value judgement?

I'm all for men being men, not wars, not systems of justice, but authentic justice.  perhaps some kind of republic would be possible in a just world, but it seem doubtful that a hunxley-esque "island" would be possible- that's essentially what the hawaiians had, (minus the psychedelics- but they did have kava :smile: ) but guess what?  the cowards will always find you and take what you've got.

this is why, to me, the only just solution to this problem so far was plato's idea of the warrior-philosopher caste.  I believe there is such a class in existence today, but with all the doublespeak / false labeling, it's really hard to identify who's who and who's wearing the wolve's skin. therefore independent action is necessary, and while a defense of "I was upholding justice, as I am required to do by the honor of a lineage of warrior-philosophers spanning the ages" might not quite make it in an american court of law (though I believe many many judges see it this way, hence "manditory minimums- basically a way to rob the courts of their power to do justice, giving it instead to the fucking politicians- the worst cravens of all, for the most part) I think that such a plea would morally obsolve many a "criminal", many a "hater". 

for, as we've concuded, the only authentic hate is the hate of righteous justice.

I read too many fantasy novels and comic books, don't I?  :smile:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
    #1931202 - 09/19/03 12:16 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I refuse to let this die.

*bump*


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1931658 - 09/19/03 05:42 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Can you explain how these two quotes work together?
Quote:

I care, I love, enough to disregard the possiblity of error in favor of action, risking the outcome of finding myself in the wrong. the objectivists are stupid cause they don't recognize this huge room for error, they think "rationality" is enough to prevent error, their faith in it is ludicrous. the existentialists, however, recognize the possibility, the strong possibility, of this huge error, but they also realize that even if there is a "god", he can't help us see this error, it's up to us. perhaps some innate metaphysical "sense" of right/wrong is god's help.




Quote:

nor do I support most any organized "justice" movements, for exactly the same reason that (most of) you people feel everyone deserves compassion: the risk of injustice. justice, in my mind, ought to be dealt BY THE JUDGE.




?


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1931660 - 09/19/03 05:47 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

You seem to refer to Plato and his republic a lot, yet you seem to digress from him in two distinct ways. 
1) He came away without determining a universal right and wrong way. 
2) You come across much more as Thrasymachus than Socrates :wink: 


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1931669 - 09/19/03 05:59 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

if the "haters" deserve compassion, this seems (to me) to suggest that they are filled with a false hatred, a misplaced passion rather than a true hatred. "they don't know better" "they are filled with propaganda" "it's acculturated" "etc".

I'll go along with this line of thought to a certain extent. but if this is the case, what use is the word "hate"? really it's all "confusion", not a justified "real" emotion, it's just a figment of some confused people's minds.

so who can be labeled a "hater"? who truly understands the rules, the "playing field" if you will, who is not "confused"?





these haters are not wrong because they are confused about the situation determining whether they should be hateful or not, they are confused about what the consequences of this violence will be. They do not understand they are only stepping into the cycle of violence which will be wrought back upon them as clearly seen in afghanistan. This 'hatred due to not knowing better' idea is so ethnocentric it kills me. Its what the government and media tries to push on us because it continues our support for the administration in power (benefitting the former) and it makes us feel good about ourselves (benefitting the latter in its aims to sell airtime). And it misses the whole point. Hatred comes from when people are mistreated unfairly. To deny that they are, is to be blind and apathetic (towards them).


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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Tao]
    #1932699 - 09/19/03 01:53 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

sure. in the first quote I'm expressing the need for some measure of existential certainty. in the other, I'm expressing the limits of that certainty: your own individual judgement, not the sublimation
of your rationality, your morality, etc, into a group dogma/ credo. cause a group ethic implies, or at least seems to lead to, concession, compromising of values, etc.

so together I'm saying that individuals can make up a class of "just" people, but they must still always act as individuals.


--------------------
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- Paul Tillich

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Tao]
    #1932723 - 09/19/03 01:58 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
You seem to refer to Plato and his republic a lot, yet you seem to digress from him in two distinct ways. 
1) He came away without determining a universal right and wrong way. 
2) You come across much more as Thrasymachus than Socrates :wink:   




I refered to the republic once. and I qualified my endorsement with a "if there is a way... it would have to be similar.... to the warrior-philosopher caste"

I don't agree with much of plato's thought.  besides, thrasymachus was an integral part of the dialectic, certainly not deserving of scorn.  so... yeah.  just cause we can't all have the luxury of martyring ourselves (to me, a quite selfish act- if socrates actually did care about his sons, as he professes to in the dialogue before his death (I can't remember which one it was...) he wouldn't have let his pride get to him, he wouldn't have martyred himself.  he beseeched the unjust to teach his sons justice... what a dumbass.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Tao]
    #1932746 - 09/19/03 02:06 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Quote:

if the "haters" deserve compassion, this seems (to me) to suggest that they are filled with a false hatred, a misplaced passion rather than a true hatred. "they don't know better" "they are filled with propaganda" "it's acculturated" "etc".

I'll go along with this line of thought to a certain extent. but if this is the case, what use is the word "hate"? really it's all "confusion", not a justified "real" emotion, it's just a figment of some confused people's minds.

so who can be labeled a "hater"? who truly understands the rules, the "playing field" if you will, who is not "confused"?





these haters are not wrong because they are confused about the situation determining whether they should be hateful or not, they are confused about what the consequences of this violence will be. They do not understand they are only stepping into the cycle of violence which will be wrought back upon them as clearly seen in afghanistan. This 'hatred due to not knowing better' idea is so ethnocentric it kills me. Its what the government and media tries to push on us because it continues our support for the administration in power (benefitting the former) and it makes us feel good about ourselves (benefitting the latter in its aims to sell airtime). And it misses the whole point. Hatred comes from when people are mistreated unfairly. To deny that they are, is to be blind and apathetic (towards them).




good, that's more acceptable to me. I think that "confusion" is a cop out. indeed, I agree that true hatred is the burden/gift of the mistreated, I made such a point earlier in the thread... something to the effect that real hate requires a love (that being mistreated), so most evil people aren't actually hateful, hate is too passionate for them... they are greedy and gluttonous. that's why I think that keeping blinders to hate, to say "I only love, and we should all only love, feel compassion for all, etc" is to condone apathy.

as for the so-called "cycle of violence"... I disagree. cycles aren't endless, every war must be won by one side or the other- not in a metaphysical sense, cause I think that there is a strong argument for an eternal struggle whose product is existence- but in a more pragmatic sense, like, for instance, the colonization of america or the world wars. indians aren't fighting the white man (physically) and the nazi's are effectively gone. sure, there's neo-nazi's and the occasional AIM standoff, but these aren't really relevant. the just warrior understands that he/she fights for an end to the war. playing ostrich and ignoring the war doesn't help anyone.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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OfflineTao
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1933874 - 09/19/03 10:04 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

I think the two words that keep getting mixed up in this thread are violence and hatred. I believe you can love and be violent and you can hate and be violent. I think the latter implies a sense of thrashing out vengence. I think that it is this form of violence which steps into the cycle of violence (or actually, i think cycle of vengence is a more appropriate phrase). After WWI, we went beyond just loving what we had (our land, life and liberty) and protecting it and stepped into vengence when we forced reparations and other punishments upon our foes. This then led to the cycle of violence culminating in WWII when the mistreated Germans hated what had happened to them and lashed out in vengence back at Europe. Then after WWII after we had protected what we loved, we did not then overstep that boundry into hatred of the Nazis and Germans by implementing similar practices to the treaty of versailles. That is why I believe it worked and europe is at peace. neither side really felt they were being mistreated soon after. I think that the american revolution was again an act of love for one's country and liberties. After all, its not like we hated the english so much that we then went over there and killed them, we rather protected that which we loved and was being threatened.
As for the native-american thing, thats an excellent point of discussion. You're right, a (near) full genocide of all those who might threaten what you love will stop the cycle of vengence, but is that really worth it? If the Iraelis wiped out all palestinians there probably wouldnt be terrorist backlashes for 'a free palestine'. and if the West wiped out all muslims, there would be no more jihad. Although this is a solution to the problem, i don't believe its the right answer/option and i doubt you do either.

You keep insisting to go back to this love=apathy and i dont know why you insist on it so much. I love good food, does that mean i sit on my ass and eat out of what i already have in the fridge? no, it means i get off my ass, learn about cooking and cook some damn good food (imho). I can tell you i dont do it cause i hate bad food (i'll eat fast food with the rest of them) i do it because i love good food.

In the future, i will love my kids and if one of them is getting bullied, i won't (or correction: i should TRY not to) hate the bully. I won't go down to the school and try to pick on that bully and hurt him, i'll try to protect my child how i can.

Now what you argue is that really what is happening is that this love is leading to hate and only then do you fight for what you have. I think that while that CAN happen, it is not what HAS to happen. And i furthermore think that acting out of hatred will have much more negative consequences in the future than acting out of protection of what you love. And it is for this reason that i believe one should strive to act out of violence by protecting what you love and not by hating what threatens it.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Tao]
    #1934024 - 09/19/03 11:00 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

wow, this is a great thread! I think we've got it narrowed down to the appropriately subtle point..

except your assumption that the hate I talk of is unjust. my whole idea of the necessity of hate is predicated on the assumption that we're talking about hating the right people, (I know, a huge assumption, but I think it's worth considering) which we all agree are not a particular nationality, race, etc., but rather a "class" of evil people who run through virtually all cultures, races, religions, etc, at varying levels.

this doesn't really impact your point though, that the violence ought to ultimately be motivated by love. I agree. as you noted, however, I do believe that as a practical matter, most often hate is the necessary impetus to action. I could put it more succinctly as "passion, any kind of passion, is better than apathy."

but this is really only true in an unmotivated, complacent and essentially sick cultural context, which I believe describes modern dominate american culture quite well.

as I acknowledged earlier in the thread, in a future (or past, as the case may be... as I think to some extent is true of many of the indigenous cultures) panacea/ utopia of integrated artistic/ philosophic/ leadership type dimensions, this would not HAVE to be the case. but it is in this case. unfortunately.

maybe you're right, maybe I'm just being cynical, but I've seen the lovers get shot too often... I can't let them be killed anymore. I hate the killers too much. cause I really loved some of those people quite a bit.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Tao]
    #1934998 - 09/20/03 07:14 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
I think that the american revolution was again an act of love for one's country and liberties. After all, its not like we hated the english so much that we then went over there and killed them, we rather protected that which we loved and was being threatened.




Couldn't help but mention this, but we wouldn't have been capable of going to England and killing them anyways. If England hadn't basically withdrawn and decided that this little colony wasn't worth dying for, we would have been wiped out eventually... There were wars going on in a lot of different places in the English empire, and the enemies there were much more of a threat to England than the Americans in the woods..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTao
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1935437 - 09/20/03 12:42 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, yes of course, i knew that when i wrote it. But then again we didnt continue any hate for the english when we did become very powerful (which obviously some countries do) and when you read the history, doesnt it come across more as a love for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness which is driving them than hate and malice. I think the latter would result in terrorism on civilians rather than the organized revolution that we saw.


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Tao]
    #1935855 - 09/20/03 03:52 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TaoTeChing said:
Yes, yes of course, i knew that when i wrote it.  But then again we didnt continue any hate for the english when we did become very powerful (which obviously some countries do) and when you read the history, doesnt it come across more as a love for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness which is driving them than hate and malice.  I think the latter would result in terrorism on civilians rather than the organized revolution that we saw. 




Of course, we just wanted to have our own freedom and our own country for us to rule as we see fit.. like I said, I just couldn't help but mention... The Observer just had to step in and fix up some knowledge, that's all.. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: silversoul7]
    #1936221 - 09/20/03 06:50 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Every side believes themselves to be "right." Our response to the other side, whether or not they are wrong, should be love and compassion.




You know my opinion already. Fuck 'em and feed 'em fisheads. I would like to help show them the way, with a nice bullet in the temple. Try hugging a suicide bomber, and see if he still blows himself up.

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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: shakta]
    #1936753 - 09/20/03 11:50 PM (20 years, 6 months ago)

alright shatka... way to totally make my position look hick-ish.


please do not associate my argument for the necessity of the motivating powers of negative passion as in any way related to shatka's uber retarded hateism.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
    #1937527 - 09/21/03 09:33 AM (20 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Malachi said:
alright shatka... way to totally make my position look hick-ish.


please do not associate my argument for the necessity of the motivating powers of negative passion as in any way related to shatka's uber retarded hateism.




What the fuck are you rambling about now? I haven't used anything you have said anywhere. You are the biggest racist on this site.

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