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Anonymous

Where has our love gone?
    #1758226 - 07/29/03 12:14 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

If love isn't spiritual, nothing is.

Look, hey look
At what happens to a country
Who turns their backs
On the homeless and the hungry.
I have read about when
The nation was a better friend
To immigrants and refugees
Weary of war in search of peace.
We were there with outstretched arms,
Knelt with others upon our knees.
Where has our love gone?

Look, hey look at what happens to a people
Who turn their backs on the elderly and feeble.
I have read about when
Some people had devised the end
Of invalids and elderly,
The lame and those who would disagree,
People of another race
Longing for their own country,
Where did their love go, their love go?

I cannot believe why
Some people should believe the lie
That the unborn child is not a person,
If it's not human, what is it then?
And in your courts you denied
That these were children sentenced to die.

Where has your love gone
Where has your love gone
Where has your love gone
Where has your love gone

Look, hey look at what happens to a country
Look, hey look at what happens to a country
Look, hey look at what happens to a country
Look, hey look at what happens to a country


(not a thread about abortion. Rather a thread about love)

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1758236 - 07/29/03 12:17 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

sounds like a thread about abortion. I was thinking... because unborn babies aren't human maybe we could eat them.. this would satisfy our need for meat and other than the aborted infants we could just eat vegetables. I wonder.. you know how sprouts are so healthy and everything? And beans, and any food that contains all that potential, all that energy that will soon become a seedling? Well, maybe human babies are the best thing to eat. Their bones would be soft and easy to render, too. With a little boiling maybe we could just eat the whole thing straight up.

iced baby on a stick for warm weather..

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1758260 - 07/29/03 12:25 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

or maybe unborn babies could be processed into little leather jackets for real babies.

listen, if a baby isnt determined or inspired enough to make it to birth, then does it really deserve our respect?

no, so lets capitalize on this completely wasted opportunity~!


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Posts: 4,805
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1758306 - 07/29/03 12:45 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

listen, if a baby isnt determined or inspired enough to make it to birth, then does it really deserve our respect?

I feel guilty for laughing at this.  Good job. :wink:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1758333 - 07/29/03 12:52 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Sicko! :tongue:

They are trying to put an abortion mill up in my town, and yesterday I drove past this lady on the street corner dressed in all black.  She was standing completely still holding a sign that said "NO ABORTION MILL," and I thought to myself, "What a stupid cunt." 

:smirk:   


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Namaste.

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1758338 - 07/29/03 12:53 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

a mill? thats a wierd choice of vocabulary.



--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1758356 - 07/29/03 12:57 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm... I never thought of converting aborted fetuses into electricity.
Makes sense... in a Giger sort of way.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1758363 - 07/29/03 01:00 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting how so many are more interested in venting their spleen they miss the point.

That's life, I guess.  :rolleyes: 

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1758366 - 07/29/03 01:03 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Nonsense MM.... we got the point.  I'm just in a funny mood right now.

I'd rather laugh than dwell on pessimistic fatalism. :wink:


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1758375 - 07/29/03 01:08 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

We?

I know you got the point.  It was the others I was refering to. :wink:

Stupid cunt, et al.

A rare appearance for Mr. M.

You were in mind. :wink:

If we cannot love or are unwillling to, we are nothing.

And that was my point. 

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1758390 - 07/29/03 01:14 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Heh, dead babies aside, love's good shit.


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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1758402 - 07/29/03 01:18 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly Bro!

And that was the first "post" icon I have used in quite a while.

Why?

It is simple really. I love you.

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OfflinePyronate
Prying open mythird eye

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Forever I walk among the ...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1758406 - 07/29/03 01:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
If we cannot love or are unwillling to, we are nothing.




...Right.




Guess I'm nothing. Odd, given that I regard love as a distinct weakness present in many, many people, and regard my transcendence of it as a personal advancement.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1758416 - 07/29/03 01:25 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Love is a pre-requisite for Creation. It is not a weakness, it is what forms the bonds of the Universe.


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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1758429 - 07/29/03 01:30 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

And lastly:

Had a dream just yesterday,
Though not asleep, I was awake.
In my mind I saw these hollow faces.
They were young and looked neglected.
They weren't loved, they were rejected,
And their eyes despaired of happy places.

Could a world so lost be found again?
Could a child so lonely find a friend?
Reaching out to feel the touch of one hand.

Near the bedside of one dying,
Down the hall a newborn crying,
In my heart I have so many questions.
In the season of the Spring,
New life flows through everything,
Though memories of some are cold reflections.

Could a world so lost be found again?
Could a child so lonely find a friend?
Reaching out to feel the touch of one hand.
A new city is being formed,
May your weary hearts be warmed
Everyone who faints with sorrow enter.
And when the pain is passed away
And the night has met the day,
There the Son will melt away the winter.

Could a world so lost be found again?
Could a child so lonely find a friend?
Reaching out the healing touch of God's hand.



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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Shroomism]
    #1758689 - 07/29/03 04:18 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Love is a pre-requisite for Creation. It is not a weakness, it is what forms the bonds of the Universe.




I have come to exactly the same conclusion. I used to think that love was mainly something that had to do with attachments and biological reproduction, but during a trip I had the insight that love is a universal principle that allows a contained consciousness to transcend its containment to create higher levels of reality.

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OfflineFliquid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1759012 - 07/29/03 07:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

There is no love without despair.
And since despair is all around us, there must be love somewhere too. :wink: 


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:

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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
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Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1759090 - 07/29/03 08:07 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Bro, don?t let the world bring you down there was never any love in the past either; people have been killing, abusing, suffering and being uncompassionate as always, this applies to this nation and all others.
The only thing you can do is find love with in your self, it is the only way to make some change in this nightmare.
Be a beacon of love for yourself and for others, I know now this is the only path for transcendence.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 16 days
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: LOBO]
    #1759501 - 07/29/03 12:17 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Could a child so lonely find a friend?

it would be ironic if you were wearing what would have been your best friend was he not "milled" into a leather jacket.

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1759526 - 07/29/03 12:35 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

love was lost in the endless words of a mis guided mass
love was lost when those forgot their brothers and their sisters
love was lost at the drop of a hat.

where love once was, stood you and me together on the hills of a forgotten land. Where love once was, no computer stood between two people. Where love once was, some have lost sight.

But to those who see love for where it was, where it is, where  it always will be. In the vast eternity of our infinite universe, thus within and without. We see tomorrow, we can dream of where love was once lost. We can dream of where love will be once again. When you and I shall stand on the hills of forever, gazing into the beauty of mother earth, and to the infinite beyond and uknown, love will come again.

i say love,  :heart: love will come again :smile:




--------------------
What?

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1759595 - 07/29/03 01:04 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

there is as much love in the world now, if not more, then there has ever been.

to think otherwise would just be a self-made delusion that would justify complaining that there isnt any more love in some hope to get certain melancholic chemicals in your brain pumping that make us feel

oh-so-warm.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1759660 - 07/29/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

or maybe your wrong about that? To me i see a lot of carelless people who as time goes by, could care less about the world around them. Thats just my opinion of course, (i think its more of a fact than you obviously do, but im not going to despute the issue). Regardless of your thoughts on subjective view of love in this world, there are more careless people than their use to be, if i may generalize some more. But enough of that. the point is i think here... to say i love you. and to drop our bullshit and be human.  so hugs?  :heart: .... awwww :laugh:


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What?

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1759722 - 07/29/03 02:02 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

no, Im very right.

how can you possibly come to the conclusion that there are more careless people nowadays then there were 400 years ago.

400 years ago, if a group of white people went and enslaved and slaughtered hundreds of thousands of people...no one would give a fuck. But because the world has now become culturally-interactive, people care what happens to other people.

I want an in-depth and logical explanation as to how you have come to your conclusions. NOW!


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1759924 - 07/29/03 02:55 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Og say go here! Oonga!


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1760389 - 07/29/03 05:32 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

where is the love? children sentenced to die?
what's ironic is that there's a bunch of anti-abortion religous types running the country right now

Look, hey look at what happens to a country/

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1760496 - 07/29/03 06:00 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Interesting how so many are more interested in venting their spleen they miss the point.

That's life, I guess.  :rolleyes: 



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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1760630 - 07/29/03 06:39 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I'll be sure not to get out of line in one of your threads again.

your point was a beautiful one. now if you're not willing to accept others' views and observations, dismissing them instead as "venting their spleen", then why post at all? would you like us to regurgitate your posts back to you? god forbid we should have our own thougts..

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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1760989 - 07/29/03 08:35 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

there is as much love in the world now, if not more, then there has ever been.




That's the thing - with an increased amount of love in the world, there's going to be an increased amount of hate.. It's all about balance - why is it so hard for some people to grasp this concept!



--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: nubious]
    #1761057 - 07/29/03 08:59 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

i agree... we don't need MORE irrational emotions driving the conditions of this world, we need more rational THOUGHT.


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Offlinenubious
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Registered: 10/20/02
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1761059 - 07/29/03 09:00 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Oh and to answer your question, my love left when you rated me a 1.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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OfflinePyronate
Prying open mythird eye

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1761392 - 07/29/03 10:43 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LoOnEr said:
i agree... we don't need MORE irrational emotions driving the conditions of this world, we need more rational THOUGHT.




:thumbup:


Most definitely.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1761834 - 07/30/03 02:27 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

i agree... we don't need MORE irrational emotions driving the conditions of this world, we need more rational THOUGHT.




There is no need to be irrational in order to love, and there is no natural law that requires love to be balanced by hate. :sun: 

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OfflineLOBO
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Registered: 03/19/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
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Loc: NY
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1762074 - 07/30/03 06:55 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

For those who think Love is an irrational emotion, I think you are confusing LOVE with infatuation.
The Love That Mr Mushroom kind of is talking about, is not a blind love, is a state of consciousness where you are one with everything, were you transcend your self, were you understand that to hurt some one else is to hurt yourself, were you can love with out the need to be loved back, and ultimately you understand that love is the primordial force that makes up our Universe.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: LOBO]
    #1762454 - 07/30/03 11:01 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LOBO said:
The Love That Mr Mushroom kind of is talking about, is not a blind love, is a state of consciousness where you are one with everything, were you transcend your self, were you understand that to hurt some one else is to hurt yourself, were you can love with out the need to be loved back, and ultimately you understand that love is the primordial force that makes up our Universe.



And to not only understand all of this, but to be able to still life your life. Chop the wood and carry the water...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1762668 - 07/30/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
I'll be sure not to get out of line in one of your threads again.

your point was a beautiful one. now if you're not willing to accept others' views and observations, dismissing them instead as "venting their spleen", then why post at all? would you like us to regurgitate your posts back to you? god forbid we should have our own thougts..





I absolutely hate it when I am placed in a position to defend myself, my thoughts, or my actions. The only other recourse I have is to remain silent, which most of the time I do because I don't normally expend energy in places where there is a law of diminishing return.

That said in no way do I not accept others views on any topic. Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how wrong-headed it may be. It is not my place to convince anyone of anything. My primary obligation is to myself in regard to learning and observing.

My post wasn't directed at you per se nor was it meant to be taken personal which is obviously the way you took it. I merely concluding after watching the thread that it was time for that kind of reminder.

Of course any response directed to you has to be personal in nature and perhaps that is what you wanted. I have no way of knowing that though.

This is another reason why I don't read or post here very much. I am not interested in personal arguments or flinging mud at one another. Certainly there are more important things to do in life than argue with someone on the Internet. Isn't there?

Furthermore that kind of arguing is yet another example of how love is waning in our lives today. Some spend time arguing with others that they do not know and in the process add more pain and grief into their lives. That isn't just an example of a lack of love.

It's also pathetic.

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: LOBO]
    #1762678 - 07/30/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Exactly LOBO, thanks. (warm smile)

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1762817 - 07/30/03 01:09 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Mr Mushrooms: "I absolutely hate it when I am placed in a position to defend myself, my thoughts, or my actions"

well....maybe you shouldnt make your thoughts public if you dont like to defend them when they come under public scrutiny>?

-you presented an idea, that "love" is waning. People (myself included) criticized that idea. This is generally how human communication works. I dont think "love" is waning, you do. Thusly a discussion arises. get over it. If you all you want is to make bold statements and have them automatically accepted, buy a parrot.



--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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OfflinePyronate
Prying open mythird eye

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: LOBO]
    #1763173 - 07/30/03 03:21 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LOBO said:
The Love That Mr Mushroom kind of is talking about, is not a blind love, is a state of consciousness where you are one with everything, were you transcend your self, were you understand that to hurt some one else is to hurt yourself, were you can love with out the need to be loved back, and ultimately you understand that love is the primordial force that makes up our Universe.




Bloody utopian visionaries.


Every time I take advantage of someone else - harming them and benefiting me - I do not hurt myself. I hurt them, and by way of that help myself.

I acknowledge the possibility that we are, indeed, all one mind. However, I have seen precious little proof to indicate this; I know I exist, but I see nothing that indicates the harm I inflict incidentally on others has any etheric repercussions on me. I do not believe in karma, nor have I seen any evidence of it.

I do acknowledge that the most efficient system of interaction between beings is one of mutual aid, compassion, and understanding - "love," if you wish to call it that. However, it is a system that MUST be participated in by all beings involved. Given the general selfishness of humans, such a system (much like communism) is not possible in the forseeable future.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1763247 - 07/30/03 03:40 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

So you have chosen your spiritual orientation for the time being. I respect that. Though it is not the orientation I have chosen.


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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1763504 - 07/30/03 04:46 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Try reading my posts in their proper context.

You completely misunderstood what I said.

I am not here to have personal arguments. If, at some point, you wish to debate something with me address some of the points I have made and say something directly to me with in the context. Then, we can discuss the merits of each of our own viewpoints and learn something.

Wouldn't that be cool?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1763887 - 07/30/03 07:10 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms said:
Wouldn't that be cool?




Fuck no! I am just here to argue with other people, because I now that I am right. Being here and proving everyone else wrong by pointing out that they are wrong has a certain egotisical satisfaction to it. I mean, I am smart, so that is basically why I am here. People that are here to share their thoughts, opinions, and insights with other like-minded people, since there aren't a lot of people like that around them, and hear other points from these people, to see things from a new perspective and hopefully learn something new... they just piss me off. Why? Because they don't know that I am right, that's why.
Oh, by the way, Mr. Mushrooms, I hate you.
hehe
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1763986 - 07/30/03 07:59 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Mr Mushrooms, I have done exactly what you have just described.

so.....what the fuck? maaaaaan.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1764710 - 07/31/03 12:19 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

This is another reason why I don't read or post here very much. I am not interested in personal arguments or flinging mud at one another. Certainly there are more important things to do in life than argue with someone on the Internet. Isn't there?

Furthermore that kind of arguing is yet another example of how love is waning in our lives today. Some spend time arguing with others that they do not know and in the process add more pain and grief into their lives. That isn't just an example of a lack of love.

It's also pathetic


wow. what the hell are you talking about? I made one response to you in this thread and I thought it was a valid point and I was pretty civil. seems you're the one doing all the arguing and mud-flinging around here. and don't you think that last bit was kinda petty and gratuitous?

the fact is, S&P isn't filled with "that kind of arguing". maybe you're describing your own experience here. but I've found it to be a very tolerant place where people come to share their thoughts, not to dispense Truth from atop a pedestal. this place has always had a good vibe except for a brief period of a few months.

and the things you said about you accepting other views on any topic, about everyone being entitled to an opinion. that's utter bullshit and even you know it. you don't tolerate people getting out of line. here is one example of it. there are hundreds of better examples (some of which are well documented in another forum), but that one happened to be on top of the page.

this thread is another example. it seems you can't quite shake that urge to control everything. you have to realize that you are dealing with real people here. real people don't have edit buttons. real people don't have delete buttons. you have to learn to deal with them and their opinions.


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1765292 - 07/31/03 07:10 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Bloody utopian visionaries.





The understanding of the love I explained is something that is to be experienced not to be rationalize, I have had that experience, in the same token I can see that it could be hard to understand if you haven?t had it.
My only advice to you If you wish to take it to at least be open to the possibility of this kinda "Love" because if not you will be denying yourself probably the most important thing to understand in life.
Is the understanding that ends all inner conflicts.
My heart and mind is for the most of the time, is still close to this love, I like most monkeys in this planet still choose suffering and egotistic behaviors, but I am trying to brake out of it.
I hope you find "Love" one day.


--------------------

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1765548 - 07/31/03 09:22 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

but I see nothing that indicates the harm I inflict incidentally on others has any etheric repercussions on me




Forget about all etheric mumbo-jumbo. There are still repercussions from how you treat people, even if those repercussions don't always affect your person directly. They will however affect things you care about, even after you're dead, assuming of course that you care about anything at all that is outside of the personal skin.

Love is not the same as communism. Communism is everyones submission to the collective will, whatever that is. Usually it turns out to be the will of the vanguard of the proletariat i.e. Comrade Chairman.

Love is when you choose to apply your own individual will for the benefit of others. Actually, change that to "others and yourself", because you won't be very successful in applying your will if you don't also love yourself. Or you could see yourself as a tool of love: would a good tool let itself be hurt or damaged needlessly? Of course not.

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OfflinePyronate
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1766578 - 07/31/03 03:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
There are still repercussions from how you treat people, even if those repercussions don't always affect your person directly. They will however affect things you care about, even after you're dead, assuming of course that you care about anything at all that is outside of the personal skin.




I don't. To be more specific, I don't care about anything that is outside of my own mind; my flesh is merely a vehicle for my mind (at least for now).

Quote:

Love is when you choose to apply your own individual will for the benefit of others.




But why would I want to do that? Only if benefiting others also has an ultimate benefit for me would I attempt to do anything of that sort. Thus, I have all the outward appearances of "love" (as such) towards certain people, but I also possess the ability to cut them loose if it's to my benefit to do so.

As a solipsist, the only thing I know exists (ie, my own mind) is the only thing I consider worth maintaining.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1768012 - 08/01/03 12:41 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I see. Love must be totally incomprehensible to a solipsist!

But there is a two-step procedure to reach an understanding of love:

1. Perform the does-objective-reality-exist challenge. There are several versions of this, involving varying degrees of bodily pain. Then realize that other people's minds are just like yours. The seeming difference is only a matter of perspective.

2. Ask yourself which is preferrable: to help others and then die, or to not help others and then die, all other things being exactly equal. Unless you're a nihilist you'll see why the first alternative is best.

Step 2 won't work if you're a nihilist. In that case someone must actually show you love by giving it to you, I suppose.

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1768224 - 08/01/03 02:36 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:

Good advice!

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OfflinePyronate
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1770003 - 08/01/03 03:11 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
I see. Love must be totally incomprehensible to a solipsist!




Not quite. I understand love, I merely see no reason to have it, and look down on others that do.

Quote:

1. Perform the does-objective-reality-exist challenge. There are several versions of this, involving varying degrees of bodily pain. Then realize that other people's minds are just like yours. The seeming difference is only a matter of perspective.




Tragically flawed by its very nature. Sensory perception is covered by the brain-in-the-tank theory (recently popularized by The Matrix). Feeling pain is not proof that an objective reality exists (unless you consider the illusion of something - and thus the existence of a pattern of information which contains the illusion of reality - to be existence; you can make a definite argument there, but it achieves nothing towards proving the existence of other minds).

Quote:

2. Ask yourself which is preferrable: to help others and then die, or to not help others and then die, all other things being exactly equal. Unless you're a nihilist you'll see why the first alternative is best.




Also flawed. It's not that simple; it's a matter of evaluating the most beneficial course for myself. Sometimes that involves helping other people. Sometimes it involves harming them. I hold no particular ill will towards other people, nor any particular compassion; they're just tools/obstacles in the path of life.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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Invisibletomatoes
you say tomatoe

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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1770395 - 08/01/03 04:44 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

glad you're feeling better Pyronate :ooo: 

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OfflinePyronate
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: tomatoes]
    #1770502 - 08/01/03 05:14 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I never felt bad. I merely re-examined the first philosophic question: whether or not to commit suicide. I'm still not sure my present choice is the right one.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1770598 - 08/01/03 05:42 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

pyronate: Not quite. I understand love, I merely see no reason to have it, and look down on others that do.


-hahahaha, thats silly man, youve boxed yourself into your own private jail cell. Looking down on others for loving other people is the ultimate form of useless elitism. How can you look down on others for something you have obviously never experienced? and if you have experienced love, then what tragic event has made you so deeply jaded?


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1770850 - 08/01/03 06:59 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

thats silly man, youve boxed yourself into your own private jail cell. Looking down on others for loving other people is the ultimate form of useless elitism

is that any worse than people who think they have love looking down on those that supposedly don't have it? and worse, presuming to teach others about love while showing none themselves.

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1771758 - 08/02/03 12:53 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

sure, i agree with that. hipocracy.


--------------------
enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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Offlinenubious
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1772301 - 08/02/03 07:13 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

is that any worse than people who think they have love looking down on those that supposedly don't have it? and worse, presuming to teach others about love while showing none themselves.




Well said, Infidel..


Quote:

I never felt bad. I merely re-examined the first philosophic question: whether or not to commit suicide. I'm still not sure my present choice is the right one.




Well, at least with your present choice you can re-evaluate the question... Jumping to hasty conclusions based off your current frame of reference may be regrettable. Time continues to flow, and there's an infinite number of possibilities for your future. Which path you take is ultimately up to you. Hang in there - it takes time but things get better.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Invisiblemr crisper
.

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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1772673 - 08/02/03 11:39 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

sorry to come in a bit late. this comment you wrote interested me -
"To be more specific, I don't care about anything that is outside of my own mind"
where is the point of transition from inside to outside? where is the border between you and everything else? the tip of your tongue? your eardrums?

is there, or has there ever been a single thought in your mind that is wholly your own? look closely at your thoughts, ideals, ideas, are they simply a summation of everything you have ever seen or heard? a reflection of your life so far. they  all came into your mind from the 'outside' you claim not to care about.
:sun: 

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1774653 - 08/03/03 12:57 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Feeling pain is not proof that an objective reality exists (unless you consider the illusion of something - and thus the existence of a pattern of information which contains the illusion of reality - to be existence; you can make a definite argument there, but it achieves nothing towards proving the existence of other minds).




Objective reality can never be proven to have any specific metaphysical nature. All we know about objective reality is what we observe of it. It doesn't matter if it's actually a simulation on some hypothetical deeper level, as long as the distinction between simulation and non-simulation can't be detected by us.

The point of the pain test is that there are things you will do or avoid doing precisely because you operate with the assumption that there are things that exist independently of whether you think they exist or not. Pain is not necessary for this, any stimulus will do. But pain makes it harder to pretend ignorance of this assumption.

Quote:

Also flawed. It's not that simple; it's a matter of evaluating the most beneficial course for myself. Sometimes that involves helping other people. Sometimes it involves harming them.




When you decide what is most beneficial to yourself, do you ever feel divided when you weigh the alternatives against each other? If that's the case, do you think you could ever be divided between two choices that only differ in that one of the choices will result in helping others and one will result in harming others?

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1775176 - 08/03/03 10:15 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I am glad not to find myself at the end of one of your question marks.

As a philosophy don't you find solipsism to be self-negating, i.e. reductio ad absurdum?

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OfflinePyronate
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1775731 - 08/03/03 02:35 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
The point of the pain test is that there are things you will do or avoid doing precisely because you operate with the assumption that there are things that exist independently of whether you think they exist or not. Pain is not necessary for this, any stimulus will do. But pain makes it harder to pretend ignorance of this assumption.




The key word here is assumption. When dealing with reality (or the illusion of it), I accept the general trend towards 1:1 correspondence that is present within the construct; every time I jab myself with a needle, it hurts. Thus, I avoid jabbing myself with a needle.

But it doesn't prove ANYTHING. Nothing new here has been stated. It merely shows that, in one sense or another, there somewhere exists a pattern of information including an needle and what happens when I jab this flesh with it. That pattern of information may be purely an internal construct, or it may be an external reality. It doesn't matter either way, because it STILL DOESN'T PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER MINDS. It doesn't even indicate the existence of other minds.

Where you could present an argument comes from the flow of information which does not appear to originate from my present state of consciousness - but that doesn't mean it's not originating from me; it may be coming from my subconscious (or superconscious), it may be coming from a past forgotten conscious, or a future unknown conscious. It may be coming from a seperate entity, but that is merely one possibility.

The fact remains that the apparent existence of reality does nothing towards proving the existence of other minds.

Quote:

When you decide what is most beneficial to yourself, do you ever feel divided when you weigh the alternatives against each other? If that's the case, do you think you could ever be divided between two choices that only differ in that one of the choices will result in helping others and one will result in harming others?




As a general rule, one path will be more beneficial, even if only slightly. But in the case of a true conflict of interest (including situations where the difference between paths is minimal), I do whatever what I feel like doing at the time. Whether or not it results in harm to others is insignificant; if I feel like hurting someone, why not?


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1777570 - 08/04/03 06:44 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think solipsism is reductio ad absurdum. It's more like just plain common-sense absurdum. :smile:

I think there are basically two distinct types of solipsism:

1. The magic-by-special-association type. Objective reality is acknowledged and is a factor in philosophical and epistemological reasoning, in exactly the same way as in realism, except that the solipsist claims that there is one difference: objective reality exists, but the solipsist's consciousness not only exists, it really exists. And the only reason for this distinction is that the solipsist has a special association to his own consciousness that is different from his associations to other people's consciousness.

2. The other type is cul-de-sac solipsism: since nothing exists except the solipsist's own consciousness, there is no point in philosophizing about objective reality, and there is no point in communicating thoughts with others, because there are no "others". Such solipsists seem to be very rare, or perhaps they only give that impression since they have no reason to talk to us about their philosophy.
   

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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1777578 - 08/04/03 06:52 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

That pattern of information may be purely an internal construct, or it may be an external reality. It doesn't matter either way, because it STILL DOESN'T PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER MINDS. It doesn't even indicate the existence of other minds.




If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... doesn't this count as indication?

Even if you think about all such patterns of information as "purely" internal constructs, won't the descriptions of the patterns be exactly the same as if they were parts of an external reality? The operative assumptions that are used in reasoning about the patterns are the same in both cases. It's only the vocabulary that is slightly different.

Quote:

As a general rule, one path will be more beneficial, even if only slightly. But in the case of a true conflict of interest (including situations where the difference between paths is minimal), I do whatever what I feel like doing at the time. Whether or not it results in harm to others is insignificant; if I feel like hurting someone, why not?




Would your attitude change if somehow it was possible to prove, in some way that was acceptable to you, that other minds actually do exist? If that is the case, could you explain why it would make a difference for any moral choices you make?

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1777680 - 08/04/03 08:31 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Every time I take advantage of someone else - harming them and benefiting me - I do not hurt myself. I hurt them, and by way of that help myself.

I acknowledge the possibility that we are, indeed, all one mind. However, I have seen precious little proof to indicate this; I know I exist, but I see nothing that indicates the harm I inflict incidentally on others has any etheric repercussions on me. I do not believe in karma, nor have I seen any evidence of it.

I do acknowledge that the most efficient system of interaction between beings is one of mutual aid, compassion, and understanding - "love," if you wish to call it that. However, it is a system that MUST be participated in by all beings involved. Given the general selfishness of humans, such a system (much like communism) is not possible in the forseeable future.




Having read this I find it very hard to believe you have a close relationship with the Mushroom! Unless you have bred a specific strain which somehow would let you off the hook for the behaviour you have outlined above...

Peace


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1777720 - 08/04/03 08:54 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for that reply. It would take too long for me to explain why I think that solipsism is self-refuting via reductio ad absurdum.

But it was interesting to me that there are several variants. That was unknown to me until you brought it up. I looked it up and came up with a few more.

Empathic solipsism
Semantic solipsism
Psychological solipsism
Ontological solipsism

And aside from those substantive variants, there are a few more that go under the rubric of methodological solipsism.

In any case, I have found it is generally a waste of time to discuss such matters with someone who is unwilling to entertain the idea of an objective, knowable universe. But your conversation does serve as a reference point for those who wish to research the subject further.

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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1778170 - 08/04/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

There are some things that hold true whether we see them or not. But for us that does exist inside our own head. And i think it is up to us to accept the inevitable. It seems to me that it is that right there that seperates us as human beings in our hehavior/compassion. If not solely, than i would say its an integral part of human relationship. People who choose to accept the fact that others exist... and that their problems affect other people. Even if to me what i see an experience is a lie to my senses, it still works like a game. And im not being superficial, but thats how life seems to be for me at least. You have these situations, and these attributes and you apply what you know, with the skill that you have to succeed in the game... And whatever your quest is you follow. But when you interact with people... there are rules. The rules of objective reality... as you say. But sometimes... for some people... love is gone. They care not for an objective reality, they see a world for themselves because no one has given them a reason to care for a mutual coexistence. These are those lost souls, even sometimes the angry.... the hateful. But there are those who feel absent of love who dont hurt other people... and do what they can. Although they still may feel lost inside. But thats something that we only as individuals can experience on the inside... Thats only what i know... how it feels to be me in my own unique way... but in this case... as you describe... i at least try to understand that there are these things that exist whether i believe them or not. If i wanted that i would never wake up.

To me, it seems that i have learned the most truth is found in experience. And concepts are just communication. I try to relate and share experience.... its my way of channeling "love" no matter what the situation is. Maybe thats what the idea of entertaining the idea of an objective world... or more simply and down to earth... "hey man... whats goin on..." you know.... were all here together".


--------------------
What?

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OfflinePyronate
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1778538 - 08/04/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Rhizoid said:
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... doesn't this count as indication?




Unclear word choice on my part, perhaps. My point was that merely because something appears to act as though it has its own mind does not necessarily mean it does.

Quote:

Even if you think about all such patterns of information as "purely" internal constructs, won't the descriptions of the patterns be exactly the same as if they were parts of an external reality? The operative assumptions that are used in reasoning about the patterns are the same in both cases. It's only the vocabulary that is slightly different.




Given. Yet it proves nothing.

Quote:

Would your attitude change if somehow it was possible to prove, in some way that was acceptable to you, that other minds actually do exist? If that is the case, could you explain why it would make a difference for any moral choices you make?




In a traditional view of consciousness (seperate, individual entities), it wouldn't change a thing. I view moral choices as things that happen to other people, and would continue to act as I do now.


However, the only way I could truly know other minds existed would be if they were part of my own, and I could thus directly experience them as my own mind. In this case, it might impact my choices, simply because I would quite literally be harming myself by harming others.

But a problem comes in putting such a system together. While in this flesh I am me - I am my own mind. If all conscious minds are subsystems of a single mind, then while we would all be one mind, we would also still be stuck in our own little compartmentalization of our mind. Only if we could became part of the overmind would be able to directly experience all minds at once, and this does not seem possible within this flesh (even through entheogens); for to truly connect the other entities I see in this construct with a mind, I would have to directly 'touch' that mind and witness its experiences as if they were my own.

Note that I have not yet completed my own psychedelic journey; I may yet be still in the early stages of it. There is yet more to experience.


--------------------
"It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times."

--Bill Hicks (RIP)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
    #1778620 - 08/04/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Only if we could became part of the overmind would be able to directly experience all minds at once,





Its funny..Today I pondered a very similar theme. I read this yesterday "On the other hand, it is by means of the universe that the individual is impelled to realise himself. Not only is it his foundation, his means, his field, the stuff of the divine work; but also since the concentration of the universal life which he is takes place within limits and is not like the intensive unity of Brahman free from all conception of bound and term, he must neccessarily universalise and impersonalise himself in order to manifest the divine All which is his reality. Yet is he called upon to preserve, even when he most extends himself in universality of conciousness, a mysterious transcendent something of which his sense of personality gives him an obscure and egoistic representation. Otherwise he has missed his goal, the problem set to him has not been solved, the divine work for which he accepted birth has not been done." - The Essential Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo.

He seems to me to mean that although we should aspire to the overmind or universality as he calls it through whatever means we choose we must always see it distorted through our own personality. I do not know whether we can choose this. I think our nature determines it.

If we do indeed exist as part of an overmind would our own "seperate mind" not be like a cell in our own body? Could a cell in our own body ever experience the same degree of conciousness which we do?

Peace


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1778724 - 08/04/03 03:45 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I think...we collectively together... (all the cells). with our brain... and whatever else goes into making us... here. Are all one. We stem from eachother... we coexist with the earth. The earth coexists with the other planets. The planets in the solar system... to the universe... stretching out... To that unknown space we still have yet to understand. We coexist because our nature demands it. If we do not... we cannot survive... just like all the other systems that depend on one another for their existance in our "reality". We cannot deny who we are... or the fact that my view from the world, or my perception, is different from yours. But i think like you said... to understand and grasp this universiality is the very key to not only our survival as a speicies. But a survival for all life, and a progression for all things.

As to whether the cell can experience this conciousness.... maybe it very well could... for it is a part of us. and maybe thus makes it take a part of the conciousness which it helps to create. They are living too :smile:... they are "real".



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What?

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1780730 - 08/05/03 06:08 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I think we will need to make ourselves, i.e Humans, into a more functional group mind before we can start thinking about truly experiencing universal mind. Even on an individual level.

Pure speculation!!


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1784984 - 08/06/03 12:38 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

well to us in our social view...i would like to think our uuniversal mind would be a more connected mind... if you hooked all the diverse minds in our world together... wouldnt it start to look like a deep space? A universal mind? WE have a group mind... but from our history lessons it looks more like Mob Rule than anything else. Lots of changes need to be made.... but thats why i think its important to make what we need very concrete... something tangible we can all walk on. Down to Earth.


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What?

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
    #1797212 - 08/10/03 01:28 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

This is another reason why I don't read or post here very much. I am not interested in personal arguments or flinging mud at one another. Certainly there are more important things to do in life than argue with someone on the Internet. Isn't there

Furthermore that kind of arguing is yet another example of how love is waning in our lives today. Some spend time arguing with others that they do not know and in the process add more pain and grief into their lives. That isn't just an example of a lack of love.

It's also pathetic.


Then why do you spend the bulk of your time doing precisely this?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1797245 - 08/10/03 01:52 AM (20 years, 7 months ago)

talking shit 101


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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