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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
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Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: Love Thy Enemy  [Re: sirreal]
#1915846 - 09/14/03 03:53 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
sirreal said:
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silversoul7 said:
I understand your point here, but it seems to be coming more out of emotion than from reason.
We are emotional beings.Without emotions where would we be?
Emotions are fine, but they are notoriously subjective.
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A virus cannot be destroyed.
Sure it can.By being rendered unable to do more destruction.
Right, but this can be done out of love. Hatred, and even anger, are not necessary to do what is right. In fact, it gets in the way. Hatred must be neutralized, and not allowed to spread.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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 sirreal
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:Emotions are fine, but they are notoriously subjective.
Love is subjective as well then.
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Hatred must be neutralized, and not allowed to spread.
I agree with that. Just not with the notion that hate must be replaced with love.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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Malachi
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 Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
#1915882 - 09/14/03 04:06 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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you're so wrong, it hurts. violence isn't immoral, nor is hatred. apathy is.
don't presume to speak for native americans, as most are quite angry about this whole being colonialized thing. in case you haven't heard.
hate, anger, violence, all can be good. ends are what matter, and ends must be determined by distinguishing reality from appearance. "compassion for all" is a fools relativism, denying the difference of worth, of value, etc.
seriously, pacifists are just trying to please their own guilty egos when they ought to be fighting a tangible enemy: peace is a cop out until it's real. it's all fine and good to view peace as a goal, but it's just sticking your head in the sand until the threat is over. the protectors of the innocent have realized this throughout time, hence the "holy warrior" or "paladin". sure, many evil men have called themselves "holy warriors" and the like, but once again, that's where appearance/ reality come in.
your pleas of compassion help the evil spread.... but it's so nice and easy to deny responsibility, to say "who am I to judge?" or "who are you to judge?". we're all that there is to judge and be judged, at least in this reality, and so we must accept this responsibility. haven't you ever read a myth? remember the one were the guy who felt "compassion" for everyone beat the evil king?
no, you don't, do you?
btw, natives don't condescend the animals by giving them "compassion", they kill them (I'm pretty sure the animals would like to go on living...) and eat them. the natives just realize that this is just, as they just recognize that they have more responsibility, hence more need of the energy of the animal. this is a value judgement in a way and in a way it isn't. the worth of the animal is judged less than that of the hunter, but on a more profound level the hunter realizes that the animals goals and his are one and the same, so it is a symbiotic relationship.
no such relationship exists in white culture, as the goals of dominate culture and those of the animals are NOT the same.
please, if you have any compassion for that which deserves compassion, first do you best to distinguish reality from appearance, good from evil, then ACT. don't just wax spiritual about apathy.
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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silversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
#1915888 - 09/14/03 04:07 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Love and compassion come with the desire to do what is right. I believe that murderers should go to jail, but not out of hatred for them, but out of love, just as your parents punish you out of love when you do something wrong. It's called "tough love."
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Shroomism
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'Terrorist' is a word thrown around a lot these days. I think it is subjective at best.
Who's the terrorists? I think the US is. Who funded and gave supplies to the Al Queda, and Bin Laden when they first started? The US. Who told them that they would help them, and then turned them against each other and turned their back on them? The US. They are pissed for good reason.. we are evil. To them, we are the evil terrorists.
But that's too political for this forum.. I think that overall compassion for all living things would do this planet a world of good.
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sirreal
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Love and compassion come with the desire to do what is right.
So does anger.Sometimes.
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I believe that murderers should go to jail, but not out of hatred for them, but out of love, just as your parents punish you out of love when you do something wrong. It's called "tough love."
Anger is not always hate based. Anger is part of "tough love".
I am not so sure that hate is always a bad thing either.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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silversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
#1915919 - 09/14/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Malachi said:
you're so wrong, it hurts. violence isn't immoral, nor is hatred. apathy is.
Violence is indeed necessary sometimes, but even that can be done with love and compassion. Hatred and apathy are both obstacles to progress.
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don't presume to speak for native americans, as most are quite angry about this whole being colonialized thing. in case you haven't heard.
But how will anger and hatred solve their dilemna?
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hate, anger, violence, all can be good. ends are what matter, and ends must be determined by distinguishing reality from appearance. "compassion for all" is a fools relativism, denying the difference of worth, of value, etc.
I recognize the negativity in the actions of those who act out of hate and anger, and resort to unnecessary violence, and thus do not wish to perpetuate it. By the way, your "ends are what matter" assertion is more relativist than what I am saying.
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seriously, pacifists are just trying to please their own guilty egos when they ought to be fighting a tangible enemy: peace is a cop out until it's real. it's all fine and good to view peace as a goal, but it's just sticking your head in the sand until the threat is over. the protectors of the innocent have realized this throughout time, hence the "holy warrior" or "paladin". sure, many evil men have called themselves "holy warriors" and the like, but once again, that's where appearance/ reality come in.
I agree that sometimes it is necessary to fight, but as I have said all along, this too can be done out of love and compassion, rather than anger and hatred.
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your pleas of compassion help the evil spread.... but it's so nice and easy to deny responsibility, to say "who am I to judge?" or "who are you to judge?". we're all that there is to judge and be judged, at least in this reality, and so we must accept this responsibility. haven't you ever read a myth? remember the one were the guy who felt "compassion" for everyone beat the evil king?
no, you don't, do you?
You are not listening to what I am saying. Love and compassion do not command us to allow evil to occur. They command us to stand up against it.
Quote:
btw, natives don't condescend the animals by giving them "compassion", they kill them (I'm pretty sure the animals would like to go on living...) and eat them. the natives just realize that this is just, as they just recognize that they have more responsibility, hence more need of the energy of the animal. this is a value judgement in a way and in a way it isn't. the worth of the animal is judged less than that of the hunter, but on a more profound level the hunter realizes that the animals goals and his are one and the same, so it is a symbiotic relationship.
Yes, they realize that they depend on the animal for food, which is why they thank its spirit. They are mindful of the fact that the animal had to die for them to eat, and thus do not take it for granted. Thus they act out of love and compassion.
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no such relationship exists in white culture, as the goals of dominate culture and those of the animals are NOT the same.
What is it with you and "white culture"? I can't even figure out what this "white culture" is.
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please, if you have any compassion for that which deserves compassion, first do you best to distinguish reality from appearance, good from evil, then ACT. don't just wax spiritual about apathy.
All things deserve compassion. Good and evil are energies that are manifested within the individual. We must counter negative energy with positive energy.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Malachi
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
#1915922 - 09/14/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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sure "terrorist" is thrown around a lot. this doesn't mean that terrorist aren't real nor that they aren't evil. the people who flew planes into the twin towers are damned, and not worthy of "compassion" in any sense of the word. Bush is a terrorist. sharon is a terrorist. all are enemies of the common people.
now, as to the question of what's to be done with "evil" people... I think that killing them is far too compassionate. we ought to make them work and sleep in meat packing plants.
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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silversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
#1915932 - 09/14/03 04:23 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Malachi said:
sure "terrorist" is thrown around a lot. this doesn't mean that terrorist aren't real nor that they aren't evil. the people who flew planes into the twin towers are damned, and not worthy of "compassion" in any sense of the word. Bush is a terrorist. sharon is a terrorist. all are enemies of the common people.
These are all people who have lost their way. They must be shown, through love and compassion, the error of their ways.
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now, as to the question of what's to be done with "evil" people... I think that killing them is far too compassionate. we ought to make them work and sleep in meat packing plants.
And what would that accomplish?
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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GanjaManDan
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
#1915933 - 09/14/03 04:23 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I agree with silversoul7 completely about the fact that we should treat everyone like a human being.
And Shroomism - I believe it is both the U.S. and Bin Ladens fault. The United States shouldn't have started shit and Bin Laden shouldn't have killed a few thousand people. I mean, if they could both forgive eachother for their wrongful deeds, I'm sure none of this nonsense would be happening..
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Aldous
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
#1915944 - 09/14/03 04:26 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Very good thread!
A few more things to consider.
About the virus thing: a virus destroys life, but isn't a virus alive itself? Just a bit of competition viewed from a subjective, human point of view. Most forms of life, including viruses, take other lives to sustain themselves. We just happen to fall victim to viruses, but we act as viruses ourselves towards other species, and most notably towards the Earth.
About oneness: it's not just that we are all connected, it's a holographic thing: every human being is present in every human being. People always try to identify with others they look up to, their role models, and distance themselves from people they'd rather not be associated with. Well in fact, there's a Hitler and a child rapist (as well as a Gandhi) deep inside of everyone of us. You can only overcome them by acknowledging their presence and dealing with them in a proper way. Aggressiveness can be useful if channeled in a proper way, but it can get very destructive if denied or completely unleashed. If you can recognize that you are composed out of the whole of humanity, you can also have compassion for, and maybe love, a child rapist.
My 2 cents, thanks for reading.
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GanjaManDan
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
#1915952 - 09/14/03 04:29 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Aldous, I totally agree with what you are saying... Basicly, we are who we truly want to be.. We all have the potential to be good, or extremely evil.. Its just our decision based on the way we live our lives
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Malachi
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" By the way, your "ends are what matter" assertion is more relativist than what I am saying."
huh? howso? seeking ends is an absolute task.
"Violence is indeed necessary sometimes, but even that can be done with love and compassion. Hatred and apathy are both obstacles to progress."
you're mincing words. violent love? in the bedroom, but not elsewhere. you fight out of hatred of the ones who threaten your loved ones, not because you love those you are fighting.... please stop begging the question.
"But how will anger and hatred solve their dilemna?"
by preventing apathy.
"What is it with you and "white culture"? I can't even figure out what this "white culture" is."
it's hard to see what you're inside of. I doubt that that's the case, though, as I'm sure your "radical" spiritual beliefs put you (at least in your mind and for all practical purposes) outside of dominate culture.
white culture = dominate culture, at least in america.
"All things deserve compassion. Good and evil are energies that are manifested within the individual. We must counter negative energy with positive energy. "
while that is a nice, neat, easy answer, it is not true. you counter negative energy with negative energy. you fight fire with fire. perhaps you can prevent negative energy from getting you with positive energy, defending your mind, soul, even body with defensive positivity, but ultimately if you want to actually attack evil you've got to be pretty negative about it. gouge out it's eyes, rip it's neck open. negative stuff.
"These are all people who have lost their way. They must be shown, through love and compassion, the error of their ways."
spoken like a sheltered white male american. tell that to the jews. tell that to the natives. tell it to anyone who has actually had to live under hell. before you wave india as an example of what compassion can accomplish, consider the hellish years of colonialism and the current pitiful state of their nation. they've been working on this "compassion" thing for thousands of years.
"And what would that accomplish? "
justice. something you obviously don't care about in the face of a much easier answer: apathy. erm, I mean "compassion".
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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich
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sirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Aldous]
#1916015 - 09/14/03 04:46 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Aldous said:
Very good thread!
Yes, it is.
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there's a Hitler and a child rapist in each of us
Nonsense.
I read awhile back about the theory that the universe is like a hologram so I understand what you are saying. But I know for a fact that a baby hitler does not reside in me.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
Edited by sirreal (09/14/03 04:49 PM)
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Learyfan
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It's all about balance.
Understand that your enemy is simply yourself playing the part of another human who represents something that you feel is bad, but don't let that person do that bad thing.
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Mp3 of the month: Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish
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silversoul7
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Malachi]
#1916028 - 09/14/03 04:53 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Malachi said:
" By the way, your "ends are what matter" assertion is more relativist than what I am saying."
huh? howso? seeking ends is an absolute task.
By assuming that the means justify the ends, you become willing to do evil things to counter evil.
Quote:
"Violence is indeed necessary sometimes, but even that can be done with love and compassion. Hatred and apathy are both obstacles to progress."
you're mincing words. violent love? in the bedroom, but not elsewhere. you fight out of hatred of the ones who threaten your loved ones, not because you love those you are fighting.... please stop begging the question.
Whene we fight, we must do so for the greater good, and to strive for the greater good is an act of love, not hate. Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.
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"But how will anger and hatred solve their dilemna?"
by preventing apathy.
See above comment
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"What is it with you and "white culture"? I can't even figure out what this "white culture" is."
it's hard to see what you're inside of. I doubt that that's the case, though, as I'm sure your "radical" spiritual beliefs put you (at least in your mind and for all practical purposes) outside of dominate culture.
white culture = dominate culture, at least in america.
I would call that "Western culture," rather than "white culture," since there are many predominantly white areas of the world with a very different culture.
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"All things deserve compassion. Good and evil are energies that are manifested within the individual. We must counter negative energy with positive energy. "
while that is a nice, neat, easy answer, it is not true. you counter negative energy with negative energy. you fight fire with fire. perhaps you can prevent negative energy from getting you with positive energy, defending your mind, soul, even body with defensive positivity, but ultimately if you want to actually attack evil you've got to be pretty negative about it. gouge out it's eyes, rip it's neck open. negative stuff.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."--Ghandi
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"These are all people who have lost their way. They must be shown, through love and compassion, the error of their ways."
spoken like a sheltered white male american. tell that to the jews. tell that to the natives. tell it to anyone who has actually had to live under hell. before you wave india as an example of what compassion can accomplish, consider the hellish years of colonialism and the current pitiful state of their nation. they've been working on this "compassion" thing for thousands of years.
What about the Jews? What about the Natives? What has their anger accomplished? Nothing. Not a goddamn thing.
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"And what would that accomplish? "
justice. something you obviously don't care about in the face of a much easier answer: apathy. erm, I mean "compassion".
FOR THE LAST TIME, I AM NOT ADVOCATING APATHY! Stop putting words in my mouth. Apathy is the opposite of love.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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sirreal
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Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.
I can cite many instances where love has gotten in the way of judgement.Love is a personal emotion as well.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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Jellric
altered statesman
Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
#1916082 - 09/14/03 05:09 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
But I know for a fact that a baby hitler does not reside in me.
Wow. You've never had a fantasy about blowing away that bully that used to pick on you in junior high, or becoming a vigilante? Nothing along those lines? You are truly one in a million- I salute you, sir!
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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
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silversoul7
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 Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: sirreal]
#1916090 - 09/14/03 05:13 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
sirreal said:
Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Anger and hatred are personal emotions that get in the way of our judgement.
I can cite many instances where love has gotten in the way of judgement.Love is a personal emotion as well.
I think you may be thinking of a different kind of love than I am talking about. I am talking about a universal love for all of creation, not a personal love for a particular person. It is an unconditional love that is not affected by anyone's actions. It is along the lines of the love that Jesus preached about.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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sirreal
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Re: Love Thy Enemy [Re: Jellric]
#1916092 - 09/14/03 05:15 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jellric said:
Quote:
But I know for a fact that a baby hitler does not reside in me.
Wow. You've never had a fantasy about blowing away that bully that used to pick on you in junior high, or becoming a vigilante? Nothing along those lines? You are truly one in a million- I salute you, sir!
First of all smartass, I was never picked on.People left me alone for the most part.
Secondly, Childish fantasies of revenge in no way compare to what hitler did.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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