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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience
    #839728 - 08/24/02 05:44 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839747 - 08/24/02 05:54 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But in our society sex is kept almost hidden, having to do it at home while no one else is looking. There are not many orgies that go on, and no public sex. Porn might have some of those things, but it is not real love. Sex isn't something you can talk about freely with everyone without getting strange looks or negative conseptions of you. A lot of chicks might not have sex with someone due to societal conditioning and feeling guilty if they did it or afraid to look uncool e.t.c. It is our natural primal needs much like eating. It keeps us going and loving life. So I guess that is a good reason why some people turn to masterbation, like me for example : )

Hell if it was a commonly practiced thing, not looked down upon, and legal I would be jumping girls bones all day long.


Edited by Earth_Droid (08/24/02 06:02 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839754 - 08/24/02 06:00 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Are you trying to tell us something?

I think that pride is the ultimate evidence of self-love. Pride is the only vice that can be purely spiritual or found in the spiritual realm.

With enough self-love one cannot have a guilty conscience. It becomes seared and the person dissolves in the acid of its poison. All that is left is an empty husk ready for the fire.

"Alone"

Alone at night,
only my thoughts for friends,
wishing on a star,
that ne'er shines,
awash in pain,
feeling the angst,
that runs,
like a freight train through my mind.

Thinking of others,
who lost their precious selves,
by clinging to the pride,
their separateness,
their false hope,
to stave off the pain that only ego brings,
existing in a shell of defense mechanisms,
which is all that is left of their being.

I cannot touch them,
there is no one to touch,
there is no one to feel anymore,
just a writhing sorrow,
from looking inward too long,
their soul is asleep,
their mind has slipped into the abyss,
where non-existence keeps its silent vigil.

A tomb for the non-persons,
who traded their birthright,
for a pot of stench,
that grows more fetid,
every passing picosecond,
all that is left,
of love turned inward,
all that is left,
is a hole in time.


Cheers,


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #839756 - 08/24/02 06:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839782 - 08/24/02 06:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Sex is a natural need, agreed. But our sex drive can be lit by several different things"

Like masturbation.

" - most of which are very unhealthy IMO.
Staring at porn is not healthy. I'm not innocent, but I whole-heartedly believe it does nothing but program us to look at women like pieces of meat instead of human souls with bodies."

I also look at porn sometimes, but I don't look at women like pieces of meat, but I agree that it definately makes some people do, which is what I was trying to get across.

"In a society with heightened awareness, I am convinced that sex would be toned down and left even more of a private matter, while providing people with the education on how to be the most ideal lover a mate can have."

Our current society does NOT have much heightened awareness.and sex is toned down and left as a private matter, if you notice the more we are evolving the subject of sex is becomming more less private, and more revealed. Sex ed class tries to teach how one should love. I think that is wrong. The experience and finding out on ones own is the thrill. I don't want to be taught how to love like a school subject, I think that is rediculous, how can someone tell me how to do something that my body is already programmed to know better than me?

"Acting like sex belongs in a box buried in the earth is not only foolish, it ultimately becomes destructive. But to put sex on a sign at every bus stop, on every commercial, on our clothing, in our minds, in our conversations - AT ALL TIMES - is just as bad if not worse. Sexuallity is a part of life, not life. We should keep that in perspective every minute of our lives. "

Of course.


Edited by Earth_Droid (08/24/02 06:29 AM)


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InvisibleGRTUD
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #839953 - 08/24/02 08:17 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The cornerstones of irrational thinking (the first or underlying foundation of mental pain and psychological illness) are:
That life should be a certain way;
and that we are being subjected to negative acts.
With that said, and remembering that to a lesser degree, there is always a grain of truth in irrational thinking, the most important love we can strive for, is self love. Self love is defined by an overall acceptance of one's moral inventory, faults and strengths. If masterbation could be, by itself, important enough to tip this balance, then deal with the problem. Not every person at a given time, could say the same thing about a given habit, if it is "good or bad." Habits do tend to be negative, but can, for a time, bring some limited benefits. Sex is so complcated that I don't think anyone really has all the answers. I try to remember that everything has a price.


--------------------
"New shit has come to light..."


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Offlinemirror_saw
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840072 - 08/24/02 09:51 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Staring at porn is not healthy. I'm not innocent, but I whole-heartedly believe it does nothing but program us to look at women like pieces of meat instead of human souls with bodies.

I have come to believe that pornography is political rhetoric. I think that the U.S. appellate courts are right - That pornography is harmful is not in doubt, that it harms is proof of it's power as speech, speech has to be protected.

People object to porn because it portrays the relationship between men and women in a way that they dislike. Pornography gives a semi-honest depiction of that relationship, and it is the honesty that some people find offensive. i.e. it is not the misrepresentation that people find objectable, but for the most part rather the truthful representation that shocks them. They want the world to be different to the way it is. Don't we all? but you can hardly object to someone telling the truth.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840216 - 08/24/02 11:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It used to be a big insult in early adolescence to be called 'a jerk-off.' That sort of defined the whole person on the basis of an act which was dirty, forbidden or perhaps guilt-ridden. Later on, after one has had some sexual experience, masturbation remains a part of one's sexual behavior, and one becomes laughably relaxed about it. Even my priest, before catechism lessons prior to baptism asked me - a 22 year old at the time - about it. We agreed upon the sensible use of "clinical masturbation" - a mere 'milking of the Cowpers gland,' resulting in lots of psychophysical release, and the renewed ability to resume one's activities without the incessant clamorings of the erotic mind. Now, as the late Ann Landers put it years ago, if you have a woman in your life, and you prefer masturbation, then you have a problem. I agree. However, I have a woman, whom you know, and believe me, sometimes I'll jack-off in the shower right after having GREAT sex. This happens to be normal. Moreover, instead of indulging in pornography, or worse, cheating on one's partner; one can explore sex with 'virtual/imaginary' partners in fantasy during masturbation. Furthermore...masturbation can and should be shared in a relationship, because no one knows how to touch us as well as we know how to touch ourselves, and we need to teach our partners how to touch us.

I've been sexually active for 30 years and was a very late bloomer sexually. During stressful periods of life: student years, graduate school, bad marriage, divorce, self-imposed celibacy; masturbation was more than useful. At times it became excessive, but I did not go blind, get pimples or lose virtue. I did not receive the wrathful punishment of God, Who designed my equipment, neither did I become neurotically obsessed by guilt via the wrongly-named practice of Onanism, after Onan who "spilled his seed upon the Earth," rather than impregnate the woman he was supposed to. Religious discipline from Catholic monasticism (and believe me, I've known monks - Franciscan, Benedictine and Cistercian - who did more than masturbate with each other) to Taoism to Yoga; all prescribe the retention and even internal ejaculation into the bladder, to preserve vital energy and direct it to more lofty states. Tried it for years - didn't work for me. Some guys are asexual. My friend Gary lived in the woods of NH for 15 years without sexual intercourse. I could not and would not do that voluntarily.

The state of Holy Matrimony in the West is spiritually undeveloped. Check the divorce rate. Both Hindu and Buddhist cultures have developed their respective forms of Holy Matrimony, and call it Tantra. Tantra is a Yoga pracice between male and female that constitutes True Marriage - the symbolic Marriage of Sun and Moon (Andrew Weil's book title, and the definition of Hatha [sun-moon] Yoga. The Kundalini can be contemplated abstractly as the 'light of 1000 suns,' or as 'a beautiful girl of 16, with full breasts...etc.' which is bound to arouse the sexual-Kundalini energy in most males. This Root Chakra energy is then enhanced with breathing exercises; brought to the Navel Center. Intersecting of Lingam and Yoni may open one's Heart Chakra, giving one the experience of thanksgiving, gratefulness and boundless love. Good sex often causes visual 'fireworks' in the Head Centers, and even tearful emotion of bliss which evidences an open Throat Center - as does verbal expressions of love, as that love-enegy rises to the Throat Center. Psychedelic sex enhances all of this. If you're on the same page with a partner, and not just using some girl's body to get off on - then there ought not be any guilt. Guilt without real 'crime' is just neurotic guilt. If one is neurotically guilty about mere masturbation, the remedy is not to suppress and repress one's libido any further - as this is the very cause of the neurosis. The remedy is to find a girl who is cool with having some sex, without any heavy emotional strings attached. A girlfriend does not necessarily expect to become your wife just because you slept together. Be open about your predicament, be honest. You will NOT go to Hell for this lesson, but you WILL come away with enhanced mental health and self-esteem. Be truthful, be kind, be happy.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #840311 - 08/24/02 12:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840333 - 08/24/02 12:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Desire and attatchment is the root of suffering. But desire and attatchment goes farther than people think. I mean most of the population on the planet has a lot of desire and attatchment. This includes the desire to be loved, to get a job, to have a kid, to look or act a certain way e.t.c. An example of attatchment can be being away from a friend or loved one, and feeling sad about it. Another thing is, god is above all that and above having judgments about whats right or wrong. I beleive that the idea of right and wrong having to do with god are actions that allow you to become closer to god or be seperated from god. If you continue to do wrong things, you can eventually learn from them and gain understanding and start evolving towards the belief of god, or even becomming god. Many humans throughout history have twiztid spirituality though and made cults or brainwashed people like in christianity. Of course not all christians are like that, and christianity is good on its own. But when some people take the stories or ways of explaning things too literally or not asking anymore questions, then it can become a problem. To sum this post up by not masterbating doesn't mean a person will become more enlightened or have less suffering. Just like any other desire it can become a problem if you let it, but even becomming attatched to having sex can be a problem and lead to suffering.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840353 - 08/24/02 12:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I definately agree with you enter. In Islamic tradition masturbation is strictly haram (a sin), and the unmarried Muslim man's sexual release will happen in wet dreams. If he is married, then of course he has his wife. Having sex before marriage is out of the question. Masturbation will ultimately do more harm than good. The idea society likes to promote that "masturbation is ok" can often lead a person into a sexual addiction, one complete with guilt and compulsive sexual emotions. By no means God is happy when one of His servents (Muslim, Christian, or Jew) masturbates his or herself, and He expects them to repent for such a deed. While once in a blue moon you might slip, God is oft-forgiving. Many people justify excessive lusting because it is an animal drive within all of us. Once we move from the Animal self, to the accusing self, and then until the restful self, we will then liberate ourselves from wordly desires as we seek refuge in God.


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OfflineEarth_Droid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #840366 - 08/24/02 12:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Show me proof to anything your saying Zahid?
How do you know what makes god happy. I only know what I have experienced, and when I am having an orgasm I am sure God is very delighted hat one of his sons is enjoying his creation. I think on your death bed you will get a great surprise visit from god and it might not be what you expect.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #840520 - 08/24/02 02:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840527 - 08/24/02 02:15 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yet, without self love, one cannot fully love others.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: ]
    #840532 - 08/24/02 02:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840539 - 08/24/02 02:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Let me put it this way, take someone who is full of hatred for themselves, and has no self esteem. Are these people generally nice to be around? Are they full of love and happiness?


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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840553 - 08/24/02 02:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I see what you are getting at in this.. and I agree to an extent. If one loves only themselves, they will detract from other people, and you could consider that a bad thing. But on the same hand, I have seen people (who I am very close with) that love other people so much...they spend all their time trying to make everyone happy. They never consider their own needs and end up suffering because of it.

I think the ideal is to find a nice harmonious balance of self-love, and loving others.

I have also heard that the things that disgust us in other people, are actually things that we see in ourselves that disgust us.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: ]
    #840556 - 08/24/02 02:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840572 - 08/24/02 02:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

IMO, love has to start with the self, and then it just spreads out from there.


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Anonymous

Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840640 - 08/24/02 03:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sex and love are not synonymous. Masturbation is not self-love, but sexual gratification or release. What psychological values an individual assigns to this act is another matter, and probably more appropriately addressed by your ideas than the act itself. A person who spends copious amounts of money on material goods in order to make himself happy while ignoring those whom he professes to love could be said to have similar problems with 'self love.'

What I'm saying is, don't assign too much value to the physical act as a sign of an unhealthy psyche but pay more attention to the individual's mind set in relation to his actions (any actions). Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and masturbation may just be a little harmless pleasure or release of sexual tension.


Edited by Evolving (08/24/02 03:30 PM)


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Invisibleshroomerylurker
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840959 - 08/24/02 06:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Self love = masturbation = guilty conscience

Right. Funny, I feel no guilty conscience after I masturbate. This might be true for you, but as a matter of fact I know I am a better lover because I have masturbated for years, really doesn't make me feel guilty. I know what I want, how I like it, what feels good, how to go for long periods of time ect...

Also what is the big deal, eh? Why is it always the Christian mentality that your body is a horrible disgusting thing?

So like if I don't have a steady lover at the time, and I don't masturbate, I just end up dreaming about sex and getting off in my sleep, why not enjoy my orgasms?

I also am one of those people that really need the maintenance every day. I am a bisexual, and I have an enormously over active sex drive, if I didn't masturbate, I would constantly be thinking about sex. And me thinking about sex during the day is really not a good thing, because it becomes blatantly obvious....

You want to think about something perverted and unnatural? How about circumcisions, it's a Jewish/Christian thing. DISGUSTING. Lets cut away a piece of skin that is supposed to be there. O, yea, by the way the head of you penis is not made to rub against your pants all day long, it causes alot of desenseification. And you do this to your children, before they can even make choices. How is that not a perversion, because your book says it is not? There are books that say that masturbation is good...


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #841468 - 08/25/02 12:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I sometimes have subtle feelings of guilt when I masterbate, then again, I get the same feelings sometimes when I am having sex.
I also sometimes feel guilty for enjoying life too much, like im feeling way too much happiness for one person





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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #841678 - 08/25/02 05:39 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

I much prefer physical masturbation to the mental masturbations of rationalization - a defense mechanism - based on some man's written prohibition in a letter that was later deemed 'the inspired word of God.' If someone is afraid to touch, stimulate, manipulate their own body, be it masturbation (which CAN be clinical) or from an enema (which is also clinical, even though anally fixated persons will take much more pleasure from this than non-anally fixated persons), or from a douche (if we are female), because of their religious beliefs...then THAT is a perversion in my estimation. That is akin to those people who won't allow their children to be treated medically because diease is the will of God. What we have is robotic, mindless adherence to dictates which defy one's God-given ability to reason within one's faith. Jesus didn't demonstrate that 'the Sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbath?' He didn't forgive and release the woman taken in adultery, when the written Law said that she must be put to death? This was not reasonable, as well as compassionate?

Did Jesus, Muhammed, Moses and every other male in the history of creation not hold his penis when he urinated? Did these and other men NOT find unusual and pleasurable sensitivity about these appendages. Moses and Muhammed were married and sexual, Jesus was not, but He was a man, and men touch their penises. Did Jesus masturbate when He was 12? God only knows. Take the 12 year old Jesus off the mythological pedestal and see Him as a flesh and blood real human. And Muhammed (for crying out loud) took a number of wives after his wife Kadijah, who was some 15 years his elder, died. One of his brides was ostensibly 9 years old. Now, if this is true, one can either say: 1) it is universally OK to marry a nine year old, or 2) that practice was temporally and culturally bound to that era. I have a moral dilemma with 1) and 2) insinuates that other aspects of the Prophet and his message are also relative, culture bound and no longer appropriate. Compared to child marriage, the 'milking of the Cowpers gland,' which is akin to the pleasure (some enjoy this more than others) of passing a bowel movement after a very irritating period of constipation, is an insignificant thing. BTW, don't anyone out there admit that it is a great relief to take a much needed dump! That might mean you enjoy anal stimulation, and then (Oh Boy), then, you are ALL a bunch of God-defying Sodomists! Yessirree Bob. You just haven't come out of the closet yet - the 'water-closet' that is.

So there you are, all of you rank-and-file fanatics of faith. Don't you dare feel human - especially in the lower chakras - just cut off all feeling and thought from the navel down and become or remain emotional cripples. Feel guilty when you have a wet dream. Beat yourselves up when you tap that organ one time too many after a urination. Remember...any more than two taps and you're playing with yourself. Do not salivate when you smell a delicious meal being prepared, and for Heaven's sake, don't you dare get a woody if you pass a supermodel who smiles at you! God will burn you forever-and-a-day for all the kissing, licking, sucking, fucking images that will fill your filthy human minds! And enter, next time you visit, and we shake hands - my right hand - I want you to remember that is HAS been on my member!



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #841722 - 08/25/02 06:57 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #841727 - 08/25/02 07:05 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

LIGHTEN UP, Dude. THAT, is an order!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #841737 - 08/25/02 07:21 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

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Edited by enter (08/25/02 07:21 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #841784 - 08/25/02 08:16 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

One of his brides was ostensibly 9 years old. Now, if this is true, one can either say: 1) it is universally OK to marry a nine year old, or 2) that practice was temporally and culturally bound to that era.

Seems you overlooked:

3. He was an amoral pedophile and liked underaged/underdeveloped girls.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #841820 - 08/25/02 08:53 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

One of Ram Dass's teachings is to quote Buddha Buddha saying, "The cause of all suffering is desire."
So desire for food, sleep, warmth and love causes suffering?

I don't personally believe masterbation is healthy or good at all. I believe it is an act of actually loving oneself contrary to design - which is for a man to love a woman and a woman to love a man in mutual consent and mutual desire.
Hmm, lets see: sexual desire for your average males starts around age 13 and peaks around age 19.

According to most religions, sex outside of marriage is a sin. So the frustrated teen can:

1. Have a sinful, sexual relationship with another.
2. Become extremely sexually respressed and frustrated.
3. Take matters into one's own hands and then feel guilty afterwards.
4. Get married at age 14 or 15.

Do you recommend 2. as the healthiest choice?



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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #841891 - 08/25/02 09:57 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

A guilty concience is all just part of the ego. In addition to loving others you should also love yourself. The problem with masterbating is getting more hung up on sensual gratification, but it's just as bad with a partner....


Edited by Cosmic_Monkey (08/25/02 09:59 AM)


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Swami]
    #841987 - 08/25/02 10:57 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842024 - 08/25/02 11:52 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

I remember Ram Dass in Ann Arbor, MI telling the audiance "sometimes I wish I could just loosen people up a bit", as he made the motions of a handjob (we ROARED with laughter... Ram Dass isn't such a P.C. man, btw, like some may think).
~
And another lecture w/ Robert Anton Wilson commenting on how many men take on bad sexual imprints at puberty, and remain chronically frustrated throughout the rest of their lives. He said that most psychology students he knew had taken on a bad sexual imprint, and that they're not really out to help people get well, but are trying to understand why in the world they're so fucked up!
~
Having taken so much LSD, I'd rather suspect that most sexual hangups could be cleared up -instananeously-, if not merely for one's inability to change one's vibrational level....
~
I kind of think of sex, masturbation, and eroticism in general as a skill, or a magick, if you will. My guess is that you probably become pretty self-conscious, guilty, and perverse if you were doing it all the time but hadn't developed any talent. All these rewarding, pleasurable things require discipline, whether it's sex or playing guitar. Both can be equally as erotic, to me. A certain open-minded sense of fascination is required before you can learn anything.....
~
I recall Allen Ginsberg once lecturing to a group of students on breathing... "First of all, back straight, spine straight, the general thing is as if you were being hung from the center of your skull, as puppets, so therefore spine straight that way. Secondly, when your spine is straightened out, you can let your belly hang out. If it means loosening your belt that's all right, so you can actually let your belly hang out a little bit. It's kind of the same kind of breathing girls know of from natural childbirth, abdominal breathing. So you inflate-push out-your stomach wall, push out the muscular wall of your stomach all the way, and then fill it with air. And then go "Uuuuuuh," the same sigh that you give after you come, "Uuuuuuuh" - you all know that, don't you? So now if you vocalize with that "Hummmm," closing the labia, closing the lips after, but not closing the teeth, "Huuuummm," you won't feel it unless you try it - and it's fun if you try it -"Huuuuuuummm, Huuuummmmm, Huuuummmm, Huuuummm," [students join] a little more to the skull, actually, Huuuuummm, that will give you the inspiration buzz, Huuuummmm, Huuuummmm."

Might be helpful for someone who wanted to ease the mental masturbation???
~
I don't find much eroticism out of most pornography these days, but I don't blame it on "pornography" itself (which is far too vague to really specify anything). I find that it has became a commodity that's way too based on fantasy. I do fear that sex easily becomes that, a commodity, another form of junk designed to keep us ensared and addicted to our body - that pornography is exactly what THEY ("THE MAN") wants us to buy into.
~
"That," said Wednesday, driving off, "is the eternal folly of man. To be chasing after seet flesh, without realizing that it is simply a pretty cover for the bones. Worm food. At night, you're rubbing yourself against worm food. No offense meant." - (p. 105) American Gods by Neil Gaimon

Anywayz.... there's a few thoughts for you all.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842085 - 08/25/02 12:37 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Markos, you are painting the broad brush on every believer who obeys the Scriptures as a fundamentalist. As I've said before, this sounds more like fundamentalism to me. You seem to justify any action by saying I will not be held down by the doctrines of man in a sense. Lets forget about the scriptures then. How would masturbation be seen in the eyes of God? Do you think he would allow His slaves to do this? There is a purpose for wet dreams.

There is a huge difference from a bowel movement and anal penetration, just as there is a difference between jerking yourself off, and holding your limp penis to urinate. Yes, we as humans do have animal drives that need to be satisfied. That is why God has made rules for mankind, so we can gratify our animal desires without sinning. These rules sent down from God are to protect the individual and society as a whole (in the case of God's Law) and not to hold you down, as you like to think. These rules are divine, and you seem to disobey them often simply because they're in a book. Perhaps you should remember the God more often, and you won't feel the compulsive need to milk the Cowpers gland. For me, wet dreams are my natural sexual release, and it's all I need (I don't know about you). Are you not one of the God fearing?

I've never made an attack on Jesus or Christianity out of context, at least. Who's the fundamentalist now?


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (08/25/02 01:20 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #842390 - 08/25/02 04:37 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

You relinquish the freedom that God has made you - not given you. The Books are guideposts, written by men like you and me. I have no irreverence for God, nor do I behave like an rebellious adolescent. I am certain that you will plug your ears, close your eyes and shriek "blasphemy!," but...the Living God indwells my very being in His Divine Immanence. Don't be alarmed...you need not lower your virtual eyes to me, because He indwells YOUR being as well. I have a living, breathing relationship with the God Who suffuses my being. You are not going to abide by every written law that Islam professes. Look at the woman in Nigeria who is on trial to be stoned to death. Perhaps you are about the 'sacrality' of such things, as were the ancient Hebrews. Get a reality check. I am not at odds with God, but if God is at odds with me, it is He alone Who will 'inform' me as He has always done. That is not your job. Your perception of scriptures is so-o-o 'by-the-book,' which is why you are a fundamentalist. You do not extrapolate or distill the essential, invariant meaning and then apply it to your life. You are like the fundamentalist Christian who attempts to live in a world 2000 years old, with a social structure that consisted of maidens (virgins), wives and harlots. Period. No independent women, educated women, free women; just property of men - fathers and husbands - who could stone a woman to death for adultery, when nothing happened to men who committed the same act. Fundamentalists attribute immutable, absolute Truth to time-bound social mores carried out in the Name of God.

Mystics are always antinomian to a greater of lesser degree. True Righteousness escapes the fundamentalist, who is nothing other than Pharasaical - who beats upon his chest and thanks God that he is not like other men. The fundamentalist attempts to be perfectionistic with regard to laws and commandments - a religiosity that suits those with an obsessive-compulsive personality structure best - a perfectionism that is not sufficient to simply live by, but must then be imposed upon everyone else, knowing full well that no one will come up to the obsessive's own level of perfectionism, thereby maintaining his sense of superiority. The fundamentalist does not and cannot fathom the interior freedom of the mystic who has the kind of relationship with God that is immediate - that is rewarded or punished here and now, and learns accordingly, without looking to a post-mortem state for final and ultimate judgement. The Laws of God are 'melted' and simplified into a Law of Love for the mystic, whose introverted, intuitive personality derives God from the inner world moreso than the outer word - from the Living Spirit of the Word moreso than the dead letter of the Word. The mystic becomes the 'friend of God,' to use a Quaker expression, and whose personality becomes transformed into Radiant Joy and Compassionate Love rather than somber, dismal surrender to the tyranny of Law. All things are lawful, although every thing is not edifying to those who are new to a life of faith. Their newness to such a life is rife with insecurity and fear of offending the Infinite and Eternal God.

Let me tell you as a mere human - it is difficult to offend little old me. Maybe a right cross to the jaw, or a home invasion. If you believe that Almighty God is more easily offended than a mere human, your faith is in a monster - a Shaitan - a terrorist of humanity. God, as viewed as a loving parent, overlooks most of the offences of his children, and chastizes serious ones. You, a mere mortal, attempt to usurp the power of God to judge. Your job is to love and forgive as far as I'm concerned. The usurping of God's power characterizes the Fall of Lucifer from God's Presence. 'Judge not, that you might not be judged.' Satan means 'accuser' in the Hebrew. To accuse is also to judge. God is my Judge - here and now - and later.

As to human sexuality, I am a grown man with decades of experience - some good, some bad. If you are content with having wet dreams, you are developmentally in a protracted state of adolelescence - perhaps early to mid 20's. It would be best to temper all that self-righteousness now, 'cause it's gonna be impossible to continue with it into life with any degree of spiritual (selfless) growth, let alone with a state of mental health. Content yourself with being uptight and prude if you want to, but you'll do well to desist in calling upon the Wrath of God for anyone else with a smoothly functioning sexual life.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842457 - 08/25/02 05:25 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842680 - 08/25/02 07:29 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

If I am a fundamentalist for obeying God, then I guess I am a fundamentalist.

Mystics are always antinomian to a greater of lesser degree. True Righteousness escapes the fundamentalist, who is nothing other than Pharasaical - who beats upon his chest and thanks God that he is not like other men

How self-righteous of you. So true righteousness escapes the believer who believes his scripture is one hundred percent true (You view all Muslims as fundamentalists, by the way). This is a foolish generalization. You claim I am judging you when you are doing the exact same thing. The truth is, you don't really know what fundamentalism is. I guess in your judgemental mind, all Sunni Muslims are fundamentalists, and Sufis are not. Is that what you think?! Unless you care to elaborate. No, it's not for me to judge you at all, and that is not what I am doing. That is for God to do. I will however, point out that your more-enlightened-than-thou mystic approach is conflicting your ability to reason with non Mystic believers, and this is where your fundamentalism surfaces. Muhammad was the most recorded man in history (right down to every detail in morality) and Sunni Muslims alike follow the Prophet's example of how to practice Islam, not a mystic innovation that only leaves the doors open to a perverted view of your own faith (i.e. Sufism). You are listening to the whispers of Satan, my friend. Accuse me of being a fanatic all you want, you hypocrite. All you do is evade and present your views as correct, and the views of others (excluding nonbelievers) as fundamentalist. You are interpreting your faith in your own, innovative way. Like most fundamentalists, they don't know they are fundamentalists (As you've said to me, Mr. Judge Markos). You're a smart person, Markos. But your intelligence is also the source of alot of egoism on your part.


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (08/25/02 09:31 PM)


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #842701 - 08/25/02 07:37 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

You're a smart person, Markos. But your intelligence is also the source of alot of egoism on your part.

C'mon Zahid, egoism? If that ain't the pot callin' the kettle black. Your hyper-literal and hyper-dogmatic interpretation of religious text is the source of a whole hell of a lot of egoism on your part. I may not agree with all of Markos' religious philosophy, but he's exponentially more open minded and suffering from less egoism than you.


Edited by Evolving (08/25/02 07:40 PM)


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: ]
    #842828 - 08/25/02 08:22 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Kill the ego- take a level 5 mushroom trip.




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Murex]
    #842974 - 08/25/02 09:26 PM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Kill the ego- take a level 5 mushroom trip.

There's no guarantee that the lesson will be brought back.
I know of one person who definitely lost the ego (during the voyage) and the next day was still an egotistical snob... bragging about their experience and so forth.
What good is it if nothing is brought back?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #843177 - 08/26/02 12:08 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

Sclorch, there are two parts to every entheogen experience. You and the entheogen. What you are is just as important as the entheogen. You can't just say "I've taken mushrooms and they didn't enlighten me so anyone who says they did is lying".

If you meditated for a couple of days would you go to an indian yogi's board and say "I meditated and it did nothing for me, you are all liars making it up. That is logical". Why do you feel so confident about saying the same thing about entheogens?

If you or your friends can't achieve spiritual experiences then work on your characters for a couple of decades. Then go back and see what the mushroom can teach you when you are a wiser, more compassionate human being. At the moment you are certainly just wasting your time. You arn't transformed overnight into the Buddha solely by taking mushrooms.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (08/26/02 12:23 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #843242 - 08/26/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 30 days ago)

BTW, "egoism" is a doctrine which holds that self-interest is the motive or valid end of action. "Egotism" is conceit; it is the practice of talking too much about oneself. This much I will concede, that a mystic and individualistic approach may confound non-mystical believers. The Gnostic description differentiates the 'psychic' believer from the 'spiritual believer.' I am not a Sufi, but I understand their approach. I an not generalizing to "all" Sunni Muslims, since I really do not know each and every one of them, but I do know that no human can conform to the dictates of the written laws with completeness. It is by the grace of God that we are saved. It is you that do not use the word 'fundamentalism' properly. It is obvious to anyone at this forum but yourself that I am not fundamentalistic about any scripture or doctrine, even within my chosen faith. They are words to be guided by; which help to shape my spiritual life and define the path so that I do not veer into gross error. The boundaries are, however, not rigid for me as they are for you. They are living words, and hence organic and yielding to a degree - like running into a wall of latex, not one of plate steel. I sustain little injury when I run up against the limits of my belief system, but the harder I try to push the envelope, the greater the opposite force in throwing me back again. Flexibility and softness are like human muscles, ligaments and tendons - not bone hardness. I am corrected without real injury.

Much of life is obscene, but to you perversion is everywhere. Meanwhile, you are an angry person for whatever reason, who wants to see conformity - a hive approach to life and worship from my perspective. I do not accept all manner of gross immorality and "perversion" in my home or from my human associates, yet I have no desire to smite the unrighteous like you seem to. I have enough on my plate trying to navigate through the obstacles of life in order to 'reach the Other Shore,' without being a crusader, a warrior. 'Ego' merely indicates the 'I-sense' called 'ahamkara' in ancient Indian pschology. Freud popularized the word 'ego.' We all have one, but few people Realize that this ego is an ephemeral manifestation of its Source. The more one Realizes one's intrinsic identity with the Source, the more do others take offence at that Realization. Christ, al-Hallaj, even Gandhi. Then people destroy those mystics while screaming "blasphemy" or some absurd political slogan to account for their 'righteous murder.' I'm not honored, or insulted by your sarcasm regarding my "more-enlightened-than-thou" words. 'More' is a relative term, which you can only compare to your own perceptions. I still have MY teachers and MY LORD by which to guage myself, and do not compare myself to men who will always be greater or lesser than me.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinepostalboy
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #843514 - 08/26/02 07:16 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

You are listening to the whispers of Satan, my friend.

Me too Me too.

And Satan is telling me that all this talk about masturbation is making me want to go jerk off. And I will NOT feel guilty about it either. Maybe a little sleepy...
Can anyone show me some quotes from these religious texts that say we can't jerk off? I guess this isn't directed at muslims since it's ok for them to be pedophiles according to their profit, mohammed. And no I didn't spell that wrong.

And with all this religious mumbo jumbo about jerking, I want to ask a question.
What does god/allah/moses/buddha think about the act of sitting on your ass typing words into a plastic box? Do they mention that as a way to heaven in these books? Im pretty sure god would be pissed at all the sloth/laziness of some of his so-called saved ones. Please use quotations and references in your answers. Thanks


--------------------
"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #844397 - 08/26/02 02:39 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

The Gnostic description differentiates the 'psychic' believer from the 'spiritual believer.'

This is a perverted belief, Markos. Why is your relationship with God any different from any other Christian, Jew, or Muslim? Once again, Shaytaan is whispering in your ear. Why do you disobey the scriptures (your self admitted masturbation, sexual relations outside of marriage), call the common believer a fanatic, and above that, believe your experience with God is more enlightening, more deep than the average believer? Do you even repent to God?

What fundamentalism is to one person, isn't to another. What isn't fundamentalism to one person, is to someone else.

I am not a Sufi, but I understand their approach. I am not generalizing to "all" Sunni Muslims, since I really do not know each and every one of them, but I do know that no human can conform to the dictates of the written laws with completeness

No, you don't know each and everyone one of them obviously, but you should know Sunnism within Islam is the comfirmed way the Prophet taught us to practice Islam. Obviously no one is perfect, that is why we repent. This doesn't mean we can do whatever we want. Since you felt the need judge the Prophet in one of your previous posts, suggest Christ masturbated, I can only imagine what other beliefs you hold to heart. I can only suggest you desist from your 'Mysticism' and start obeying the rules God has sent down to man, not the rules from man. Mysticism is an innovation of what you percieve as a more enlightening relationship with God, a relationship that lets say, fundamentalists don't have with God. And thank you for correcting me on the difference between egoism, and egotism. You just had too, right?


--------------------


Edited by Zahid (08/26/02 04:06 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #844631 - 08/26/02 04:13 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

My simple admissions of humanity are not proud proclamations. Have I had sexual play and intercourse before I was married? Yes, of course. Have I ever raped, molested, assaulted, deceived or ripped off a lady? No. I believe that you are a virgin. I remember when I was, and how self-righteously attached I was to that state. After all, it was sure proof of my self-control and superior morality to all the depraved dopers and drinkers that inhabited college life, right? I eventually became honest with myself, and came to realize that all this asceticism was a more subtle form of ego-aggrandizement, not genuine spirituality.

You not only have no real sexual experience, you are years away from integrating a normal (not by my subjective assessment, but by standards that all but an obsessed individual whom you would be in agreement with) degree of sexuality into your personality. You are speaking primarily out of projection, projective identification, rationalization, and a good deal of reaction-formation in which your conscious attitude toward sexuality matches the equally intense measure of your repressed sexual desire. Of projection and projective identification, you merely put onto others that which you have consciously rejected and therefore repressed as 'evil.' In your case - a typical case - sexuality is so unfulfilled that it has loomed into a great Shaitan. Like the witch-persecutors who projected their desires onto 'enchantingly' beautiful women, who no doubt wanted no part of such men; and who in turn blamed the women for enchanting or bewitching them; and like the Muslim men who likewise project their desires onto women, making them wear ridiculous coverings over their normal feminine beauty so as not to 'tempt' men; you have selected me as a 'screen' upon which to project your own rejected and despised sexuality. Feel free...this process is a transference phenomenon of which I am more than familiar as a therapist.

You see, there are more psychotics with 'Christ delusions,' delusions of grandeur, the messianic complex, than most any other delusion in the West. With full blown paranoia, and ego-inflation pushed conceptually as far as one can conceive of it, the 'logic' of such inflation is to be God as one's culture tends to envision Him. You are also inflated, though not to psychotic proportions. In order to express such indignation - to ASSUME such offense in the Name of Almighty God - is to take on a responsibility that far outstrips any real role that you have in life. No clergyman of any faith I have encountered, who is balanced - who knows that his role as a clergyman does not necessarily make him holier than, say, some devout grandmother in his charge, takes the self-righteous offense that you do. AS IF you are the very voice of the Prophet. I have met a few Saint Paul's in my day, and know of a fascinating case of 'The Three Christs of Ipsalanti,' about 3 psychotics in the Ipsalanti Hospital for the Mentally Ill who all had Christ delusions - who they put together in order to study the spiritual one-upmanship that ensued. Even Saint Paul identified himself as a maker of tents (probably big leather ones for the Roman legionnaires). What role other than your exalted missionary in the Name of your God have you revealed at this forum? Shared any human flaws with anyone, besides the fear that you have accidentally offended the Almighty with a wrong mental conception? God forbid! Even the flaw[s] you reveal are of an exalted type. What could be worse from a being who is so totally the utterly loyal slave of Allah? These other sins, like jacking off...now THAT is REALLY perverse!
With all of the slaves and concubines and wives that the Old Testament patriarchs had, do you mean to say that lust was not a big, big thing? Please. Your very religion supposedly originates with a sexual indiscretion between Abraham and his servant Hagar, so anxious was he to produce progeny, and so unwilling to believe that Sarah could conceive. Sexuality comprises a huge portion of Scriptural writings. Assuming of course that any of this happened at all.

Your faith may be real, only God knows, but few humans will be impressed with a faith so rigid, and so ensconsed in obsessive-compulsive concerns, and defense mechanisms that are dressed in religious language. A rebuttal and defense from you is inevitable, but frankly, this kind of dialogue is just wearisome and boring. I am open to correction, and will concede to it. I have had my positions on topics as big as capital punishment changed completely by some of the souls at this forum. I have apologized for wrongly assuming too much negativity about youthful substance users (indicting some of my own hypocrisy), and I have acquired knowledge about music, drug effects and other things here. But it is pointless to dialogue with anyone who will not learn. I am not communicating with you, I am running a descriptive monologue. If I was doing therapy with you, my patience would be greater, but I am not so it isn't. I have much to learn in life, but you have lessons to learn in simple humanity that I learned long ago, and you are simply not in any position to preach to me until those lessons have been learned. Much later.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #844737 - 08/26/02 04:52 PM (19 years, 29 days ago)

I don't like running in circles.

My simple admissions of humanity are not proud proclamations. Have I had sexual play and intercourse before I was married? Yes, of course. Have I ever raped, molested, assaulted, deceived or ripped off a lady? No.

The sins of sexual play and intercourse before marriage are not synonymous to rape, molestation, and assault. You have no need to even mention them. Even you should see the flaw in that sentence.

You're obviously older and wiser than me, but your assumptions of who I am are based entirely how I conduct myself on this message board, which is not how I conduct myself in reality. On the internet I'm arrogant, and loud. You don't even know the first thing about me, or why I reverted to Islam in the first place. You don't even believe Muhammad was a real messenger, so there is going to be a bias (a bias I have already noticed on your part) that even both of us might have. But, I do have the intelligence and reason to see that you are not obeying the scriptures (without them, there wouldn't be an established message) of the faith you follow. I'm quite sure you believe the hypocrites are correct in their beliefs (correct me if I'm wrong).

But it is pointless to dialogue with anyone who will not learn. I am not communicating with you, I am running a descriptive monologue. If I was doing therapy with you, my patience would be greater, but I am not so it isn't. I have much to learn in life, but you have lessons to learn in simple humanity that I learned long ago, and you are simply not in any position to preach to me until those lessons have been learned. Much later.

And you're saying I have the inflated ego?

Once again, you're taking a shady exit from the straight path with your introspective, mystic approach of faith. My last post was a response to your religious perversion (of course, mystics don't see it that way), which you evaded entirely in an under-the-belt analysis of me (Who are you to do that?). Perhaps my preaching is ego inflation. What you just said to me is an ego inflation of a more disturbing kind. But go ahead, shrug off everything I say as foolish fundamentalist ramblings of some young Muslim punk. Lessons to learn in simple humanity? This is where you contradict yourself. I'm sure this dialogue has been benevolent for us both.


Later..


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Edited by Zahid (08/26/02 05:22 PM)


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #845618 - 08/27/02 03:03 AM (19 years, 29 days ago)

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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #845741 - 08/27/02 04:56 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Do make sure to look up that concept of 'reaction formation', 'cuz that's the first one that popped in my head...

Ever wonder about the unconscious motivations of extremist radicals at the picket lines? They invest sooo much time and energy into it.... Ever wonder how their perspective might change if they invested that time and energy into building a rich social, sexual life?

Anywayzzzzz..... hope yer day is full of surprises and laughter......... blessings, CJ


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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