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Invisibleshroomerylurker
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #840959 - 08/24/02 06:08 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Self love = masturbation = guilty conscience

Right. Funny, I feel no guilty conscience after I masturbate. This might be true for you, but as a matter of fact I know I am a better lover because I have masturbated for years, really doesn't make me feel guilty. I know what I want, how I like it, what feels good, how to go for long periods of time ect...

Also what is the big deal, eh? Why is it always the Christian mentality that your body is a horrible disgusting thing?

So like if I don't have a steady lover at the time, and I don't masturbate, I just end up dreaming about sex and getting off in my sleep, why not enjoy my orgasms?

I also am one of those people that really need the maintenance every day. I am a bisexual, and I have an enormously over active sex drive, if I didn't masturbate, I would constantly be thinking about sex. And me thinking about sex during the day is really not a good thing, because it becomes blatantly obvious....

You want to think about something perverted and unnatural? How about circumcisions, it's a Jewish/Christian thing. DISGUSTING. Lets cut away a piece of skin that is supposed to be there. O, yea, by the way the head of you penis is not made to rub against your pants all day long, it causes alot of desenseification. And you do this to your children, before they can even make choices. How is that not a perversion, because your book says it is not? There are books that say that masturbation is good...


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #841468 - 08/25/02 12:59 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I sometimes have subtle feelings of guilt when I masterbate, then again, I get the same feelings sometimes when I am having sex.
I also sometimes feel guilty for enjoying life too much, like im feeling way too much happiness for one person





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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #841678 - 08/25/02 05:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I much prefer physical masturbation to the mental masturbations of rationalization - a defense mechanism - based on some man's written prohibition in a letter that was later deemed 'the inspired word of God.' If someone is afraid to touch, stimulate, manipulate their own body, be it masturbation (which CAN be clinical) or from an enema (which is also clinical, even though anally fixated persons will take much more pleasure from this than non-anally fixated persons), or from a douche (if we are female), because of their religious beliefs...then THAT is a perversion in my estimation. That is akin to those people who won't allow their children to be treated medically because diease is the will of God. What we have is robotic, mindless adherence to dictates which defy one's God-given ability to reason within one's faith. Jesus didn't demonstrate that 'the Sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbath?' He didn't forgive and release the woman taken in adultery, when the written Law said that she must be put to death? This was not reasonable, as well as compassionate?

Did Jesus, Muhammed, Moses and every other male in the history of creation not hold his penis when he urinated? Did these and other men NOT find unusual and pleasurable sensitivity about these appendages. Moses and Muhammed were married and sexual, Jesus was not, but He was a man, and men touch their penises. Did Jesus masturbate when He was 12? God only knows. Take the 12 year old Jesus off the mythological pedestal and see Him as a flesh and blood real human. And Muhammed (for crying out loud) took a number of wives after his wife Kadijah, who was some 15 years his elder, died. One of his brides was ostensibly 9 years old. Now, if this is true, one can either say: 1) it is universally OK to marry a nine year old, or 2) that practice was temporally and culturally bound to that era. I have a moral dilemma with 1) and 2) insinuates that other aspects of the Prophet and his message are also relative, culture bound and no longer appropriate. Compared to child marriage, the 'milking of the Cowpers gland,' which is akin to the pleasure (some enjoy this more than others) of passing a bowel movement after a very irritating period of constipation, is an insignificant thing. BTW, don't anyone out there admit that it is a great relief to take a much needed dump! That might mean you enjoy anal stimulation, and then (Oh Boy), then, you are ALL a bunch of God-defying Sodomists! Yessirree Bob. You just haven't come out of the closet yet - the 'water-closet' that is.

So there you are, all of you rank-and-file fanatics of faith. Don't you dare feel human - especially in the lower chakras - just cut off all feeling and thought from the navel down and become or remain emotional cripples. Feel guilty when you have a wet dream. Beat yourselves up when you tap that organ one time too many after a urination. Remember...any more than two taps and you're playing with yourself. Do not salivate when you smell a delicious meal being prepared, and for Heaven's sake, don't you dare get a woody if you pass a supermodel who smiles at you! God will burn you forever-and-a-day for all the kissing, licking, sucking, fucking images that will fill your filthy human minds! And enter, next time you visit, and we shake hands - my right hand - I want you to remember that is HAS been on my member!



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #841722 - 08/25/02 06:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #841727 - 08/25/02 07:05 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

LIGHTEN UP, Dude. THAT, is an order!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #841737 - 08/25/02 07:21 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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Edited by enter (08/25/02 07:21 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #841784 - 08/25/02 08:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

One of his brides was ostensibly 9 years old. Now, if this is true, one can either say: 1) it is universally OK to marry a nine year old, or 2) that practice was temporally and culturally bound to that era.

Seems you overlooked:

3. He was an amoral pedophile and liked underaged/underdeveloped girls.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: World Spirit]
    #841820 - 08/25/02 08:53 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

One of Ram Dass's teachings is to quote Buddha Buddha saying, "The cause of all suffering is desire."
So desire for food, sleep, warmth and love causes suffering?

I don't personally believe masterbation is healthy or good at all. I believe it is an act of actually loving oneself contrary to design - which is for a man to love a woman and a woman to love a man in mutual consent and mutual desire.
Hmm, lets see: sexual desire for your average males starts around age 13 and peaks around age 19.

According to most religions, sex outside of marriage is a sin. So the frustrated teen can:

1. Have a sinful, sexual relationship with another.
2. Become extremely sexually respressed and frustrated.
3. Take matters into one's own hands and then feel guilty afterwards.
4. Get married at age 14 or 15.

Do you recommend 2. as the healthiest choice?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleCosmic_Monkey
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: shroomerylurker]
    #841891 - 08/25/02 09:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

A guilty concience is all just part of the ego. In addition to loving others you should also love yourself. The problem with masterbating is getting more hung up on sensual gratification, but it's just as bad with a partner....


Edited by Cosmic_Monkey (08/25/02 09:59 AM)


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Swami]
    #841987 - 08/25/02 10:57 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842024 - 08/25/02 11:52 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I remember Ram Dass in Ann Arbor, MI telling the audiance "sometimes I wish I could just loosen people up a bit", as he made the motions of a handjob (we ROARED with laughter... Ram Dass isn't such a P.C. man, btw, like some may think).
~
And another lecture w/ Robert Anton Wilson commenting on how many men take on bad sexual imprints at puberty, and remain chronically frustrated throughout the rest of their lives. He said that most psychology students he knew had taken on a bad sexual imprint, and that they're not really out to help people get well, but are trying to understand why in the world they're so fucked up!
~
Having taken so much LSD, I'd rather suspect that most sexual hangups could be cleared up -instananeously-, if not merely for one's inability to change one's vibrational level....
~
I kind of think of sex, masturbation, and eroticism in general as a skill, or a magick, if you will. My guess is that you probably become pretty self-conscious, guilty, and perverse if you were doing it all the time but hadn't developed any talent. All these rewarding, pleasurable things require discipline, whether it's sex or playing guitar. Both can be equally as erotic, to me. A certain open-minded sense of fascination is required before you can learn anything.....
~
I recall Allen Ginsberg once lecturing to a group of students on breathing... "First of all, back straight, spine straight, the general thing is as if you were being hung from the center of your skull, as puppets, so therefore spine straight that way. Secondly, when your spine is straightened out, you can let your belly hang out. If it means loosening your belt that's all right, so you can actually let your belly hang out a little bit. It's kind of the same kind of breathing girls know of from natural childbirth, abdominal breathing. So you inflate-push out-your stomach wall, push out the muscular wall of your stomach all the way, and then fill it with air. And then go "Uuuuuuh," the same sigh that you give after you come, "Uuuuuuuh" - you all know that, don't you? So now if you vocalize with that "Hummmm," closing the labia, closing the lips after, but not closing the teeth, "Huuuummm," you won't feel it unless you try it - and it's fun if you try it -"Huuuuuuummm, Huuuummmmm, Huuuummmm, Huuuummm," [students join] a little more to the skull, actually, Huuuuummm, that will give you the inspiration buzz, Huuuummmm, Huuuummmm."

Might be helpful for someone who wanted to ease the mental masturbation???
~
I don't find much eroticism out of most pornography these days, but I don't blame it on "pornography" itself (which is far too vague to really specify anything). I find that it has became a commodity that's way too based on fantasy. I do fear that sex easily becomes that, a commodity, another form of junk designed to keep us ensared and addicted to our body - that pornography is exactly what THEY ("THE MAN") wants us to buy into.
~
"That," said Wednesday, driving off, "is the eternal folly of man. To be chasing after seet flesh, without realizing that it is simply a pretty cover for the bones. Worm food. At night, you're rubbing yourself against worm food. No offense meant." - (p. 105) American Gods by Neil Gaimon

Anywayz.... there's a few thoughts for you all.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842085 - 08/25/02 12:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Markos, you are painting the broad brush on every believer who obeys the Scriptures as a fundamentalist. As I've said before, this sounds more like fundamentalism to me. You seem to justify any action by saying I will not be held down by the doctrines of man in a sense. Lets forget about the scriptures then. How would masturbation be seen in the eyes of God? Do you think he would allow His slaves to do this? There is a purpose for wet dreams.

There is a huge difference from a bowel movement and anal penetration, just as there is a difference between jerking yourself off, and holding your limp penis to urinate. Yes, we as humans do have animal drives that need to be satisfied. That is why God has made rules for mankind, so we can gratify our animal desires without sinning. These rules sent down from God are to protect the individual and society as a whole (in the case of God's Law) and not to hold you down, as you like to think. These rules are divine, and you seem to disobey them often simply because they're in a book. Perhaps you should remember the God more often, and you won't feel the compulsive need to milk the Cowpers gland. For me, wet dreams are my natural sexual release, and it's all I need (I don't know about you). Are you not one of the God fearing?

I've never made an attack on Jesus or Christianity out of context, at least. Who's the fundamentalist now?


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Edited by Zahid (08/25/02 01:20 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #842390 - 08/25/02 04:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You relinquish the freedom that God has made you - not given you. The Books are guideposts, written by men like you and me. I have no irreverence for God, nor do I behave like an rebellious adolescent. I am certain that you will plug your ears, close your eyes and shriek "blasphemy!," but...the Living God indwells my very being in His Divine Immanence. Don't be alarmed...you need not lower your virtual eyes to me, because He indwells YOUR being as well. I have a living, breathing relationship with the God Who suffuses my being. You are not going to abide by every written law that Islam professes. Look at the woman in Nigeria who is on trial to be stoned to death. Perhaps you are about the 'sacrality' of such things, as were the ancient Hebrews. Get a reality check. I am not at odds with God, but if God is at odds with me, it is He alone Who will 'inform' me as He has always done. That is not your job. Your perception of scriptures is so-o-o 'by-the-book,' which is why you are a fundamentalist. You do not extrapolate or distill the essential, invariant meaning and then apply it to your life. You are like the fundamentalist Christian who attempts to live in a world 2000 years old, with a social structure that consisted of maidens (virgins), wives and harlots. Period. No independent women, educated women, free women; just property of men - fathers and husbands - who could stone a woman to death for adultery, when nothing happened to men who committed the same act. Fundamentalists attribute immutable, absolute Truth to time-bound social mores carried out in the Name of God.

Mystics are always antinomian to a greater of lesser degree. True Righteousness escapes the fundamentalist, who is nothing other than Pharasaical - who beats upon his chest and thanks God that he is not like other men. The fundamentalist attempts to be perfectionistic with regard to laws and commandments - a religiosity that suits those with an obsessive-compulsive personality structure best - a perfectionism that is not sufficient to simply live by, but must then be imposed upon everyone else, knowing full well that no one will come up to the obsessive's own level of perfectionism, thereby maintaining his sense of superiority. The fundamentalist does not and cannot fathom the interior freedom of the mystic who has the kind of relationship with God that is immediate - that is rewarded or punished here and now, and learns accordingly, without looking to a post-mortem state for final and ultimate judgement. The Laws of God are 'melted' and simplified into a Law of Love for the mystic, whose introverted, intuitive personality derives God from the inner world moreso than the outer word - from the Living Spirit of the Word moreso than the dead letter of the Word. The mystic becomes the 'friend of God,' to use a Quaker expression, and whose personality becomes transformed into Radiant Joy and Compassionate Love rather than somber, dismal surrender to the tyranny of Law. All things are lawful, although every thing is not edifying to those who are new to a life of faith. Their newness to such a life is rife with insecurity and fear of offending the Infinite and Eternal God.

Let me tell you as a mere human - it is difficult to offend little old me. Maybe a right cross to the jaw, or a home invasion. If you believe that Almighty God is more easily offended than a mere human, your faith is in a monster - a Shaitan - a terrorist of humanity. God, as viewed as a loving parent, overlooks most of the offences of his children, and chastizes serious ones. You, a mere mortal, attempt to usurp the power of God to judge. Your job is to love and forgive as far as I'm concerned. The usurping of God's power characterizes the Fall of Lucifer from God's Presence. 'Judge not, that you might not be judged.' Satan means 'accuser' in the Hebrew. To accuse is also to judge. God is my Judge - here and now - and later.

As to human sexuality, I am a grown man with decades of experience - some good, some bad. If you are content with having wet dreams, you are developmentally in a protracted state of adolelescence - perhaps early to mid 20's. It would be best to temper all that self-righteousness now, 'cause it's gonna be impossible to continue with it into life with any degree of spiritual (selfless) growth, let alone with a state of mental health. Content yourself with being uptight and prude if you want to, but you'll do well to desist in calling upon the Wrath of God for anyone else with a smoothly functioning sexual life.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842457 - 08/25/02 05:25 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #842680 - 08/25/02 07:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If I am a fundamentalist for obeying God, then I guess I am a fundamentalist.

Mystics are always antinomian to a greater of lesser degree. True Righteousness escapes the fundamentalist, who is nothing other than Pharasaical - who beats upon his chest and thanks God that he is not like other men

How self-righteous of you. So true righteousness escapes the believer who believes his scripture is one hundred percent true (You view all Muslims as fundamentalists, by the way). This is a foolish generalization. You claim I am judging you when you are doing the exact same thing. The truth is, you don't really know what fundamentalism is. I guess in your judgemental mind, all Sunni Muslims are fundamentalists, and Sufis are not. Is that what you think?! Unless you care to elaborate. No, it's not for me to judge you at all, and that is not what I am doing. That is for God to do. I will however, point out that your more-enlightened-than-thou mystic approach is conflicting your ability to reason with non Mystic believers, and this is where your fundamentalism surfaces. Muhammad was the most recorded man in history (right down to every detail in morality) and Sunni Muslims alike follow the Prophet's example of how to practice Islam, not a mystic innovation that only leaves the doors open to a perverted view of your own faith (i.e. Sufism). You are listening to the whispers of Satan, my friend. Accuse me of being a fanatic all you want, you hypocrite. All you do is evade and present your views as correct, and the views of others (excluding nonbelievers) as fundamentalist. You are interpreting your faith in your own, innovative way. Like most fundamentalists, they don't know they are fundamentalists (As you've said to me, Mr. Judge Markos). You're a smart person, Markos. But your intelligence is also the source of alot of egoism on your part.


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Edited by Zahid (08/25/02 09:31 PM)


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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #842701 - 08/25/02 07:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You're a smart person, Markos. But your intelligence is also the source of alot of egoism on your part.

C'mon Zahid, egoism? If that ain't the pot callin' the kettle black. Your hyper-literal and hyper-dogmatic interpretation of religious text is the source of a whole hell of a lot of egoism on your part. I may not agree with all of Markos' religious philosophy, but he's exponentially more open minded and suffering from less egoism than you.


Edited by Evolving (08/25/02 07:40 PM)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: ]
    #842828 - 08/25/02 08:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kill the ego- take a level 5 mushroom trip.




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Murex]
    #842974 - 08/25/02 09:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Kill the ego- take a level 5 mushroom trip.

There's no guarantee that the lesson will be brought back.
I know of one person who definitely lost the ego (during the voyage) and the next day was still an egotistical snob... bragging about their experience and so forth.
What good is it if nothing is brought back?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Sclorch]
    #843177 - 08/26/02 12:08 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Sclorch, there are two parts to every entheogen experience. You and the entheogen. What you are is just as important as the entheogen. You can't just say "I've taken mushrooms and they didn't enlighten me so anyone who says they did is lying".

If you meditated for a couple of days would you go to an indian yogi's board and say "I meditated and it did nothing for me, you are all liars making it up. That is logical". Why do you feel so confident about saying the same thing about entheogens?

If you or your friends can't achieve spiritual experiences then work on your characters for a couple of decades. Then go back and see what the mushroom can teach you when you are a wiser, more compassionate human being. At the moment you are certainly just wasting your time. You arn't transformed overnight into the Buddha solely by taking mushrooms.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (08/26/02 12:23 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Self love = masterbation = guilty conscience [Re: Zahid]
    #843242 - 08/26/02 02:27 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

BTW, "egoism" is a doctrine which holds that self-interest is the motive or valid end of action. "Egotism" is conceit; it is the practice of talking too much about oneself. This much I will concede, that a mystic and individualistic approach may confound non-mystical believers. The Gnostic description differentiates the 'psychic' believer from the 'spiritual believer.' I am not a Sufi, but I understand their approach. I an not generalizing to "all" Sunni Muslims, since I really do not know each and every one of them, but I do know that no human can conform to the dictates of the written laws with completeness. It is by the grace of God that we are saved. It is you that do not use the word 'fundamentalism' properly. It is obvious to anyone at this forum but yourself that I am not fundamentalistic about any scripture or doctrine, even within my chosen faith. They are words to be guided by; which help to shape my spiritual life and define the path so that I do not veer into gross error. The boundaries are, however, not rigid for me as they are for you. They are living words, and hence organic and yielding to a degree - like running into a wall of latex, not one of plate steel. I sustain little injury when I run up against the limits of my belief system, but the harder I try to push the envelope, the greater the opposite force in throwing me back again. Flexibility and softness are like human muscles, ligaments and tendons - not bone hardness. I am corrected without real injury.

Much of life is obscene, but to you perversion is everywhere. Meanwhile, you are an angry person for whatever reason, who wants to see conformity - a hive approach to life and worship from my perspective. I do not accept all manner of gross immorality and "perversion" in my home or from my human associates, yet I have no desire to smite the unrighteous like you seem to. I have enough on my plate trying to navigate through the obstacles of life in order to 'reach the Other Shore,' without being a crusader, a warrior. 'Ego' merely indicates the 'I-sense' called 'ahamkara' in ancient Indian pschology. Freud popularized the word 'ego.' We all have one, but few people Realize that this ego is an ephemeral manifestation of its Source. The more one Realizes one's intrinsic identity with the Source, the more do others take offence at that Realization. Christ, al-Hallaj, even Gandhi. Then people destroy those mystics while screaming "blasphemy" or some absurd political slogan to account for their 'righteous murder.' I'm not honored, or insulted by your sarcasm regarding my "more-enlightened-than-thou" words. 'More' is a relative term, which you can only compare to your own perceptions. I still have MY teachers and MY LORD by which to guage myself, and do not compare myself to men who will always be greater or lesser than me.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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