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Rhizoid
carbon unit
Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 month, 8 days
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1777578 - 08/04/03 06:52 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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That pattern of information may be purely an internal construct, or it may be an external reality. It doesn't matter either way, because it STILL DOESN'T PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF OTHER MINDS. It doesn't even indicate the existence of other minds.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... doesn't this count as indication?
Even if you think about all such patterns of information as "purely" internal constructs, won't the descriptions of the patterns be exactly the same as if they were parts of an external reality? The operative assumptions that are used in reasoning about the patterns are the same in both cases. It's only the vocabulary that is slightly different.
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As a general rule, one path will be more beneficial, even if only slightly. But in the case of a true conflict of interest (including situations where the difference between paths is minimal), I do whatever what I feel like doing at the time. Whether or not it results in harm to others is insignificant; if I feel like hurting someone, why not?
Would your attitude change if somehow it was possible to prove, in some way that was acceptable to you, that other minds actually do exist? If that is the case, could you explain why it would make a difference for any moral choices you make?
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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1777680 - 08/04/03 08:31 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Every time I take advantage of someone else - harming them and benefiting me - I do not hurt myself. I hurt them, and by way of that help myself.
I acknowledge the possibility that we are, indeed, all one mind. However, I have seen precious little proof to indicate this; I know I exist, but I see nothing that indicates the harm I inflict incidentally on others has any etheric repercussions on me. I do not believe in karma, nor have I seen any evidence of it.
I do acknowledge that the most efficient system of interaction between beings is one of mutual aid, compassion, and understanding - "love," if you wish to call it that. However, it is a system that MUST be participated in by all beings involved. Given the general selfishness of humans, such a system (much like communism) is not possible in the forseeable future.
Having read this I find it very hard to believe you have a close relationship with the Mushroom! Unless you have bred a specific strain which somehow would let you off the hook for the behaviour you have outlined above...
Peace
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Anonymous
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
#1777720 - 08/04/03 08:54 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for that reply. It would take too long for me to explain why I think that solipsism is self-refuting via reductio ad absurdum.
But it was interesting to me that there are several variants. That was unknown to me until you brought it up. I looked it up and came up with a few more.
Empathic solipsism Semantic solipsism Psychological solipsism Ontological solipsism
And aside from those substantive variants, there are a few more that go under the rubric of methodological solipsism.
In any case, I have found it is generally a waste of time to discuss such matters with someone who is unwilling to entertain the idea of an objective, knowable universe. But your conversation does serve as a reference point for those who wish to research the subject further.
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
#1778170 - 08/04/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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There are some things that hold true whether we see them or not. But for us that does exist inside our own head. And i think it is up to us to accept the inevitable. It seems to me that it is that right there that seperates us as human beings in our hehavior/compassion. If not solely, than i would say its an integral part of human relationship. People who choose to accept the fact that others exist... and that their problems affect other people. Even if to me what i see an experience is a lie to my senses, it still works like a game. And im not being superficial, but thats how life seems to be for me at least. You have these situations, and these attributes and you apply what you know, with the skill that you have to succeed in the game... And whatever your quest is you follow. But when you interact with people... there are rules. The rules of objective reality... as you say. But sometimes... for some people... love is gone. They care not for an objective reality, they see a world for themselves because no one has given them a reason to care for a mutual coexistence. These are those lost souls, even sometimes the angry.... the hateful. But there are those who feel absent of love who dont hurt other people... and do what they can. Although they still may feel lost inside. But thats something that we only as individuals can experience on the inside... Thats only what i know... how it feels to be me in my own unique way... but in this case... as you describe... i at least try to understand that there are these things that exist whether i believe them or not. If i wanted that i would never wake up.
To me, it seems that i have learned the most truth is found in experience. And concepts are just communication. I try to relate and share experience.... its my way of channeling "love" no matter what the situation is. Maybe thats what the idea of entertaining the idea of an objective world... or more simply and down to earth... "hey man... whats goin on..." you know.... were all here together".
-------------------- What?
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Pyronate
Prying open mythird eye
Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 100
Loc: Forever I walk among the ...
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Rhizoid]
#1778538 - 08/04/03 02:45 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Rhizoid said: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... doesn't this count as indication?
Unclear word choice on my part, perhaps. My point was that merely because something appears to act as though it has its own mind does not necessarily mean it does.
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Even if you think about all such patterns of information as "purely" internal constructs, won't the descriptions of the patterns be exactly the same as if they were parts of an external reality? The operative assumptions that are used in reasoning about the patterns are the same in both cases. It's only the vocabulary that is slightly different.
Given. Yet it proves nothing.
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Would your attitude change if somehow it was possible to prove, in some way that was acceptable to you, that other minds actually do exist? If that is the case, could you explain why it would make a difference for any moral choices you make?
In a traditional view of consciousness (seperate, individual entities), it wouldn't change a thing. I view moral choices as things that happen to other people, and would continue to act as I do now. However, the only way I could truly know other minds existed would be if they were part of my own, and I could thus directly experience them as my own mind. In this case, it might impact my choices, simply because I would quite literally be harming myself by harming others. But a problem comes in putting such a system together. While in this flesh I am me - I am my own mind. If all conscious minds are subsystems of a single mind, then while we would all be one mind, we would also still be stuck in our own little compartmentalization of our mind. Only if we could became part of the overmind would be able to directly experience all minds at once, and this does not seem possible within this flesh (even through entheogens); for to truly connect the other entities I see in this construct with a mind, I would have to directly 'touch' that mind and witness its experiences as if they were my own. Note that I have not yet completed my own psychedelic journey; I may yet be still in the early stages of it. There is yet more to experience.
-------------------- "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom... keep that in mind at all times." --Bill Hicks (RIP)
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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Pyronate]
#1778620 - 08/04/03 03:08 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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Only if we could became part of the overmind would be able to directly experience all minds at once,
Its funny..Today I pondered a very similar theme. I read this yesterday "On the other hand, it is by means of the universe that the individual is impelled to realise himself. Not only is it his foundation, his means, his field, the stuff of the divine work; but also since the concentration of the universal life which he is takes place within limits and is not like the intensive unity of Brahman free from all conception of bound and term, he must neccessarily universalise and impersonalise himself in order to manifest the divine All which is his reality. Yet is he called upon to preserve, even when he most extends himself in universality of conciousness, a mysterious transcendent something of which his sense of personality gives him an obscure and egoistic representation. Otherwise he has missed his goal, the problem set to him has not been solved, the divine work for which he accepted birth has not been done." - The Essential Aurobindo, Sri Aurobindo.
He seems to me to mean that although we should aspire to the overmind or universality as he calls it through whatever means we choose we must always see it distorted through our own personality. I do not know whether we can choose this. I think our nature determines it.
If we do indeed exist as part of an overmind would our own "seperate mind" not be like a cell in our own body? Could a cell in our own body ever experience the same degree of conciousness which we do?
Peace
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: GazzBut]
#1778724 - 08/04/03 03:45 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think...we collectively together... (all the cells). with our brain... and whatever else goes into making us... here. Are all one. We stem from eachother... we coexist with the earth. The earth coexists with the other planets. The planets in the solar system... to the universe... stretching out... To that unknown space we still have yet to understand. We coexist because our nature demands it. If we do not... we cannot survive... just like all the other systems that depend on one another for their existance in our "reality". We cannot deny who we are... or the fact that my view from the world, or my perception, is different from yours. But i think like you said... to understand and grasp this universiality is the very key to not only our survival as a speicies. But a survival for all life, and a progression for all things.
As to whether the cell can experience this conciousness.... maybe it very well could... for it is a part of us. and maybe thus makes it take a part of the conciousness which it helps to create. They are living too ... they are "real".
-------------------- What?
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GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Zero7a1]
#1780730 - 08/05/03 06:08 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think we will need to make ourselves, i.e Humans, into a more functional group mind before we can start thinking about truly experiencing universal mind. Even on an individual level.
Pure speculation!!
-------------------- Always Smi2le
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Zero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland
Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: GazzBut]
#1784984 - 08/06/03 12:38 PM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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well to us in our social view...i would like to think our uuniversal mind would be a more connected mind... if you hooked all the diverse minds in our world together... wouldnt it start to look like a deep space? A universal mind? WE have a group mind... but from our history lessons it looks more like Mob Rule than anything else. Lots of changes need to be made.... but thats why i think its important to make what we need very concrete... something tangible we can all walk on. Down to Earth.
-------------------- What?
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: ]
#1797212 - 08/10/03 01:28 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is another reason why I don't read or post here very much. I am not interested in personal arguments or flinging mud at one another. Certainly there are more important things to do in life than argue with someone on the Internet. Isn't there
Furthermore that kind of arguing is yet another example of how love is waning in our lives today. Some spend time arguing with others that they do not know and in the process add more pain and grief into their lives. That isn't just an example of a lack of love.
It's also pathetic.
Then why do you spend the bulk of your time doing precisely this?
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
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Re: Where has our love gone? [Re: Xlea321]
#1797245 - 08/10/03 01:52 AM (20 years, 7 months ago) |
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talking shit 101
-------------------- enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.
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