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Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Free Will An Illusion?
    #7823259 - 01/02/08 11:14 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I've been grapling with this idea for months and I've shared it with some Tao and Buddhist practitioners and everyone of them tells me I'm wrong. I've never gotten a good response as to why I'm wrong, just that I'm wrong. Here's my idea anyway.

It seems to me that free-will is an illusion and predestination does in fact exist. For every effect there is a cause. When you have a set of certain conditions only one outcome can naturally emerge. If you hold a flame to wick, the wick will catch fire, it doesn't turn into a butterfly or shoot rainbows in the air. Just as with me, in any given situation, there is only one possible way I can react to it. Sure, I have choices to choose from, but given my predisposition, experiences, and tendencies, there is only one way in which I can react. For example, a homeless man asks me for change, I'm a very nice person and love helping people and am not an asshole. I'm going to give him some change. Why would I not do that? I haven't had an experience yet that would leave me bitter towards homeless people.

Going back to the beginning of time, if there is such a thing. The first set of conditions and causes were going to produce a particular result. The result that emerged could only produce another set of certain results and so on and so on. Me making this post would naturally have to have been inevitable since the beginning of time, how could it not? The first cause set in motion a chain of cause and effects that left me in this present moment with confusion and curiosity about this subject. Everyone who replies to this post is going to reply in a particular manner that could not be any other way.

True, we can make decisions and choose, but it just seems like an illusion. We aren't really making a choice, we are actually just a big melting pot of certain conditions and causes that are going to produce a certain result. It's kind of like the universe is just one big seed slowly opening, the person who put the seed in place knows it will turn into a flower and die because that's what flowers do. We're just some plant cell completely oblivious to what's going on because we're only a cell and cannot comprehend/see the big picture.

Peace :hippie:


Edited by appleorange (01/02/08 11:28 AM)


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Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7823270 - 01/02/08 11:16 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

haha, actually, this post prvoes another thing. I am fucking retarded and wasn't paying attention, so it was only natural that I posted this in physical and mental well-being.

Will someone please move this to philosophy?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7823353 - 01/02/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

You'll get every sort of response to this, from a simple "you're wrong" to complex (relatively) posts about how quantum effects are made into large-scale effects effecting the functioning of our brain...but you're right.

For evidence, I'll give you a few thousand years of scientific revolutions which explain something which was once "unpredictable". There is no reason to expect that future scientific discoveries will not be able to explain thought in all its forms.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
    #7823367 - 01/02/08 11:34 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Is it time for the annual Free Will discussion already?!

Early this year! :grin:


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7823618 - 01/02/08 12:41 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I agree that as socialized and conditioned beings, we have strong tendencies towards predictable actions and reactions. But, I wouldn't go to the extreme of saying that we have no choice or freedom at all. You always have the choice of whether or not to react, and how to do so.

With an issue like free will, I don't know how anyone could go about proving whether or not it 'exists' either way. It may in fact be a completely meaningless question.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
    #7823666 - 01/02/08 12:53 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

It may in fact be a completely meaningless question.

I believe in the power of choice...but I also believe this is all determined :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
    #7823703 - 01/02/08 01:01 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

So you're asserting that all of our choices are already made? Everything that's infinitely forward of here in space-time is determined? Who will be elected president next is already determined?

Determined by whom or what?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineJoseLibrado
return


Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 569
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
    #7823710 - 01/02/08 01:02 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Just the very notion through which you ask the question, shows me that you have free will and you dont.

I think this makes more sense when we think about how we came to know free will. Through not having it, and vice versa.

Cause and effect work the same way...a cause creates the effect is what is believed in our world. Look at the justice system, most people have absolutly no problem with that.Cause in definition relies on effect to exist.

Now since a cause cannot cause itself, because effect is what is caused, and not the opposite, then a cause to be a cause, must be self-sufficient because a cause is defined as preceeding the effect.

And if a casue does indeed preceed the effect, it must have self-sufficient existence, or it must be casued by itself, in so far as we looked at and believe effect as being caused and not the opposite.

Bu for something to cause itself, would assume that it is not there, to begin with and then caused itself, from nothing.
So for cause to preceed effect to be true, you must believe that a thing is created from nothing{lack of a thing}.

This is impossible to me, because to create a thing from nothing, implies that the thing known as ´create´ is a lack of a thing. This is so simple that it becoms extremly hard to grasp for me. Look at what i just said...i point out that create is a thing. Thats all... hahaha. so much for deep complex issues beyond compensaiton and comprehension.

So in order for me to believe then that cause preceeds effect, to create has to be looked at as a lack of a thing...but this cannot be because create is a thing, it has its orgin in imagination so to deny it as a thing, we must deny imagination, aswell. We must also deny, denial as a thing as well.Might as well deny this whole passage, cuz i didnt create this thing...


--------------------
The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution.

And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change.

Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems.

Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
    #7823759 - 01/02/08 01:17 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Determined by whom or what?

Call it the Primal Cause...of where it came I have no idea.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7823768 - 01/02/08 01:19 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

You have completely mixed up what cause and effect mean...

Every cause is also an effect. That's how causality works.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 16 days
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: JoseLibrado]
    #7823910 - 01/02/08 02:07 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Possibilities are strong causes ! :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
    #7824218 - 01/02/08 03:46 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Determined by whom or what?

Call it the Primal Cause...of where it came I have no idea.




A Primal Cause? Could you elaborate please?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
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Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7824224 - 01/02/08 03:49 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

The Sufis, I think, have an interesting idea of free will. They say that it is not something that we are automatically born with, but instead a state that we must grow into through experience and practice.

This point strikes me because especially here in the western world, free will is considered a basic human right.


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7824301 - 01/02/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

According to Christian theology (Protestant, Reformed, Calvinistic) man does not have a free will and absolute predestination is true. Man only acts according to his nature and he can not change that. Only the grace of God can change that nature and give a new disposition in the new birth.

All things are ordained according to the will of God. God does not merely foresee events, but actually causes events to transpire according to his decree.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
    #7824311 - 01/02/08 04:20 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Think of it as "God" if you want...what I'm getting at is the initial cause of the Universe, or whatever came "before".


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7824314 - 01/02/08 04:21 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
According to Christian theology (Protestant, Reformed, Calvinistic) man does not have a free will and absolute predestination is true. Man only acts according to his nature and he can not change that. Only the grace of God can change that nature and give a new disposition in the new birth.

All things are ordained according to the will of God. God does not merely foresee events, but actually causes events to transpire according to his decree.




so it decides who goes to hell beforehand? so we don't have a chance then? if god wants us to go to hell then it is already preordained before we are born? that doesn't makes sense...

do you know of somewhere in the bible that says what you had posted before?

thanks!


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
    #7824471 - 01/02/08 05:27 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

God ordains all things, even the salvation and damnation of men.

Romans chapter 9 makes the point that God is sovereign and hardens some, while saving others. Many verses point to predestination. The objection of unfairness is dealt with in Romans 9 as well.

I could compile a verse list but it would take me some time.


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7824492 - 01/02/08 05:32 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

nah that's cool! whatever is clever!  it would only be good to use when certain family members try to convert me to christianity...it's annoying  :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7824494 - 01/02/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Don't you ever get bored of that?
It must be really bad being like that. :frown:
I feel sorry for you :hug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
    #7824507 - 01/02/08 05:36 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
nah that's cool! whatever is clever!  it would only be good to use when certain family members try to convert me to christianity...it's annoying  :smile:



If they are real Christians they will know about this doctrine.  Most today are not real and are lost.


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