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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7824526 - 01/02/08 05:40 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Don't you ever get bored of that?
It must be really bad being like that. :frown:
I feel sorry for you :hug:



Why would I get bored of a glorious doctrine that is the lynch pin of true grace?  Without predestination salvation must be by works.

To God be ALL the glory!


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7824544 - 01/02/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Whatever dude, I hope you'll get to actually feel happy instead of fearsome. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7824557 - 01/02/08 05:48 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Translation: *chest puffs out and head swells* I am superior for having been chosen and you are inferior because you weren't. I am going to heaven and you aren't. Neener, neener! :razz:

Hmmm, what doth the Great Book have to say on this matter:

Proverbs 3:7

The LORD despises pride; be assured that the proud will be punished.


Um, well OK then.


--------------------


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7824623 - 01/02/08 06:07 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Actually the exact opposite is true. There is no difference between the chosen and unchosen, both are deserving damnation. Since no one chosen was chosen because they had greater merits than anyone else they have no reason to boast against anyone else. It cuts away any and all boasting entirely.

If someone says a person is chosen BECAUSE they performed some action, then this person does have reason to boast in themselves. This is salvation by works and is fatal.


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
    #7824712 - 01/02/08 06:23 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Think of it as "God" if you want...what I'm getting at is the initial cause of the Universe, or whatever came "before".




The cause of the universe? What if there were multiple causes and conditions, such as two universes colliding? What if there never was any sort of 'beginning', and reality is simply beginningless?

It seems as if your argument of predestination in this case hinges on reality having a very definitive beginning point in space and time.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7824859 - 01/02/08 06:53 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

I could compile a verse list but it would take me some time.


And who would care?:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7824863 - 01/02/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Actually the exact opposite is true.  There is no difference between the chosen and unchosen, both are deserving damnation.  Since no one chosen was chosen because they had greater merits than anyone else they have no reason to boast against anyone else.  It cuts away any and all boasting entirely.

If someone says a person is chosen BECAUSE they performed some action, then this person does have reason to boast in themselves.  This is salvation by works and is fatal.




Good thing you were chosen then.:rofl2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
    #7825381 - 01/02/08 09:01 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I could compile a verse list but it would take me some time.


And who would care?:shrug:




well it would be interesting...from my point of view anyway.

so yeah I would care


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
    #7825474 - 01/02/08 09:20 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
The cause of the universe? What if there were multiple causes and conditions, such as two universes colliding? What if there never was any sort of 'beginning', and reality is simply beginningless?

It seems as if your argument of predestination in this case hinges on reality having a very definitive beginning point in space and time.




I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Invisibleappleorange
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Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
    #7825477 - 01/02/08 09:20 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

guys, my post has absolutely nothing to do with christianity or any god. I'm not excluding the possibility that a god may exist, but it's not really pertinent to what I'm saying.

I'm also not saying that free will does not exist, but that it's an illusion. If you were to plant a seed, YOU know that it will grow into a flower, but the seed doesn't. The seed is just operating off the causes that put it there, much like us.

We are faced with decisions everyday, but you are able to only act in one way. Here's a bad example. Your friend tells you that Macy's is having a huge ass sale, 50% off everything in the store, but you assume it will last a couple days and decide to go tomorrow. You go the next day only to find that the sale has ended and you tell yourself "damn, I should have went yesterday!" But you didn't though, you assumed the sale was going to last a little bit longer. All of our choices are dictated by our present state of mind, comprised of various experiences, tendencies, and whatnot that lead us in a certain direction.

A couple years later, some guy says, "YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS! MACY'S HAS EVERYTHING 50% OFF!" Because of what happened a couple years ago you decide to go to Macy's that very day.

Life is like this every single day. We are faced with choices to make, but the choice we make is the only one we could ever make. When you put chicken, broth, and some noodles in a pot, you get chicken noodle soup, not french onion soup. With people it's the same way, except it's conditions instead of ingredients. Certain conditions produce chicken noodle soup, not french onion soup.

Where this gets deep in my opinion, is when you follow this logic, it assumes some kind of predestination. The first cause sets in forth the effect that is this moment. Only a creator could know what the first cause would produce, just as how only a farmer could know only what a sunflower seed will produce.

God is not important here though, I don't want people getting hung up on him.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Posts: 5,501
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7825606 - 01/02/08 09:51 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

this is a tough question as always...


but lets start by asking ourselves..

what do you mean free will?

do you mean the freedom to act, decide, both, neither...

this is important for the answers you get will partially depend on these definitions. the term free will has a lot of baggage that needs to be unpacked first!

so as a good exercise, how are you going to define free will?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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Invisibleappleorange
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
    #7825617 - 01/02/08 09:54 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Free Will = To be able to do whatever the fuck you want.

That's my definition :smirk:


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Invisiblekaiowas
lest we baguette
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Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7825631 - 01/02/08 09:57 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
Free Will = To be able to do whatever the fuck you want.

That's my definition :smirk:




then yeah we do


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
    #7825707 - 01/02/08 10:15 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.




If,
Free will = reality in "RECORD" mode....
......and.....
No free will = reality in "PLAY BACK" mode....

How could you truly tell the difference between the two.....?
What would be the scientific test for this.....?    :shrug:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Invisibleappleorange
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7825724 - 01/02/08 10:22 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

trendal said:
I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.




If,
Free will = reality in "RECORD" mode....
......and.....
No free will = reality in "PLAY BACK" mode....

How could you truly tell the difference between the two.....?
What would be the scientific test for this.....?    :shrug:


>^;;^<




I don't think anyone here has suggested that we have no free will.

We need to focus on my newest most important post though, the one about Macy's 50% off sale.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7825758 - 01/02/08 10:31 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
We need to focus on my newest most important post though, the one about Macy's 50% off sale.




Oh shyt~, I musta~ missed that.....!?    50% off ya~ say.....    On sale tomorrow too....?    :shocked:

:tongue:

Quote:

appleorange said:
I don't think anyone here has suggested that we have no free will.




So, you think it is always record mode, or always playback mode.....?
Or, it is the illusion of one or the other....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7825766 - 01/02/08 10:34 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Did you have to make this post asking this?
And/Or did you do that of free will?

When it is done, the "done" can not be altered..
When doing, the "doing" has every potential one got..

Thus, the free will might be limited, by ones doing, and even of what was done..

"One can use ones freedom, to bind oneself; as being "not free" .. thus choosing to be bound, even when 'deep down', being free.. But, the other way around, when chosen not to be free, or claiming one never 'can be'/was free, being bound, .. then one are bound, even if one chose to be free..
And so it can boil down to, what one take basis in!

Start with freedom, and be either or..
Start with being bound, and be bound.. "


"Free to be bound, and bound to be free!" :wink:


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Invisibleappleorange
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: Gomp]
    #7825785 - 01/02/08 10:43 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

So, you think it is always record mode, or always playback mode.....?
Or, it is the illusion of one or the other....?




I think it is on record mode, but the outcome cannot be seen ahead of time by us.

Just like my seed analogy, only the farmer knows that a sunflower seed will grow into a flower. We are the seed and seeds don't know too much.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7825817 - 01/02/08 10:55 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
I think it is on record mode, but the outcome cannot be seen ahead of time by us.
.
Just like my seed analogy, only the farmer knows that a sunflower seed will grow into a flower. We are the seed and seeds don't know too much.




OK, your recent post clears up this part of your earlier post....

Quote:

appleorange said:
.... just as how only a farmer could know only what a sunflower seed will produce.





I read this a few times, and couldn't figure out why it didn't make sense to me....!   
That, or maybe I just shouldn't be posting anymore and I should go to bed....    :tongue:



But again, how can you think or "know" or test to see if we are actually in record mode, or playback mode.....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7825849 - 01/02/08 11:07 PM (16 years, 30 days ago)

well, playback mode would imply that everything has already happened and this is simply not true. As of typing this, I have no idea what your next reply will be.

haha, I need to go to bed too, fucking shroomery :craven:


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