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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
    #7826167 - 01/03/08 01:09 AM (16 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
The cause of the universe? What if there were multiple causes and conditions, such as two universes colliding? What if there never was any sort of 'beginning', and reality is simply beginningless?

It seems as if your argument of predestination in this case hinges on reality having a very definitive beginning point in space and time.




I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.




The Big Bang theory is certainly an interesting one, but it is definitely not air-tight. There are a number of problems with it, but that is neither here nor there.

What about pre-Bang? If there was an uncaused cause, something from nothing, then what's to stop that same phenomenon from occurring again? Why are there not unicorns and dragons poofing into existence randomly? Why don't flowers appear suddenly, without having had to have been planted and nurtured and grown?

The only possible response is that a first cause was a singularity: a one-time freak instance. But again I ask you, doesn't it seem a little odd that such a thing has never happened again (as far as we know)? Speaking from a scientific perspective, which is more likely: the Big Bang (assuming that this is indeed how our universe started) is simply the result of earlier causes and conditions, or the Big Bang was a one-time singularity of something spontaneously and without any prior cause arising from nothing? Going from scientific knowledge, logic, reason, empirical observation, and Occam's Razor, it seems likely that it was the former.

But again, how can anyone know? This is all just idle speculation isn't it? As is this whole thread, I think. What difference would it make in our lives if we concluded there was no free will? Our society needs that pre-supposition to function as it is presently. If there was no free will, then who could be held responsible and accountable for their actions?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBoots
Disenchanted
Male

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
    #7826659 - 01/03/08 08:42 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

It makes sense but since it's not scientifically proven, it's not as easy to believe, specifically for those who like to believe that they have a choice.


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
    #7826688 - 01/03/08 09:01 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

What about pre-Bang?

That makes as much sense as saying "what happened in the time before time was created?" It really is pointless to assume we know (or even can know) what exists beyond the confines of this space-time.

If there was an uncaused cause, something from nothing, then what's to stop that same phenomenon from occurring again?

That's a pretty big assumption, don't you think? Again, to assume the existence of anything which lies outside of this space-time is folly.

If you want my personal opinion on the matter, I think our universe began as a piece of something else - some other space-time - which expanded into a loop (think of a space-time "tube", with one end at the beginning of time and the other at the end of time, and the ends are connected to something much larger).

What difference would it make in our lives if we concluded there was no free will? Our society needs that pre-supposition to function as it is presently. If there was no free will, then who could be held responsible and accountable for their actions?

I think the key part of what you said was as it is presently :wink:

If we concluded there was no free will maybe it would promote a little more compassion out of people. If someone commits a crime, it's still their fault that the crime was committed. They still deserve punishment. On the other hand we should be compassionate with our punishment. Understand the why of the criminal actions.

I can still make choices about the future, and I do so quite often. It certainly feels like I have freedom of will...from this viewpoint. I just understand that I always was going to make the choices I will make in the future...I just don't know what I was going to choose until I do choose :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


Edited by trendal (01/03/08 09:09 AM)


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Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
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Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
    #7826822 - 01/03/08 09:46 AM (16 years, 29 days ago)

I agree with trendal.

If my original post is true, then it means that more compassion is needed towards criminals because their crimes were done out of ignorance.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7828549 - 01/03/08 06:00 PM (16 years, 29 days ago)

Aaaahhh, nevermind....
This is just another stalemate dicsussion anyways....  :ohwell:


>^;;^<


Edited by PhanTomCat (01/03/08 06:14 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7831336 - 01/04/08 09:49 AM (16 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Aaaahhh, nevermind....
This is just another stalemate dicsussion anyways....  :ohwell:


>^;;^<




IMO this is the best post in this thread.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejustamonkey
Stranger


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
    #7834605 - 01/05/08 06:35 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

Hey man, who cares whether you choose something or it was gonna happen anyway? Sit back, put your feet up, and enjoy the show. :thumbup:


--------------------
[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
    #7834688 - 01/05/08 07:52 AM (16 years, 27 days ago)

I think the context and question are misleading
it is not about choice
it is about movement.
movement is much more complex than choice which is binary, and the examination of it crumbles into tedious argument

think of freedom in terms of movement.

some movement is merely tropism. (to light, away from pain...)
other movement is inspired.

to have inspired movement, one immerses into culture and wisdom which is in itself a kind of move.

move in light, people, and see what freedom is.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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