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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Free Will An Illusion?
#7823259 - 01/02/08 11:14 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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I've been grapling with this idea for months and I've shared it with some Tao and Buddhist practitioners and everyone of them tells me I'm wrong. I've never gotten a good response as to why I'm wrong, just that I'm wrong. Here's my idea anyway.
It seems to me that free-will is an illusion and predestination does in fact exist. For every effect there is a cause. When you have a set of certain conditions only one outcome can naturally emerge. If you hold a flame to wick, the wick will catch fire, it doesn't turn into a butterfly or shoot rainbows in the air. Just as with me, in any given situation, there is only one possible way I can react to it. Sure, I have choices to choose from, but given my predisposition, experiences, and tendencies, there is only one way in which I can react. For example, a homeless man asks me for change, I'm a very nice person and love helping people and am not an asshole. I'm going to give him some change. Why would I not do that? I haven't had an experience yet that would leave me bitter towards homeless people.
Going back to the beginning of time, if there is such a thing. The first set of conditions and causes were going to produce a particular result. The result that emerged could only produce another set of certain results and so on and so on. Me making this post would naturally have to have been inevitable since the beginning of time, how could it not? The first cause set in motion a chain of cause and effects that left me in this present moment with confusion and curiosity about this subject. Everyone who replies to this post is going to reply in a particular manner that could not be any other way.
True, we can make decisions and choose, but it just seems like an illusion. We aren't really making a choice, we are actually just a big melting pot of certain conditions and causes that are going to produce a certain result. It's kind of like the universe is just one big seed slowly opening, the person who put the seed in place knows it will turn into a flower and die because that's what flowers do. We're just some plant cell completely oblivious to what's going on because we're only a cell and cannot comprehend/see the big picture.
Peace
Edited by appleorange (01/02/08 11:28 AM)
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7823270 - 01/02/08 11:16 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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haha, actually, this post prvoes another thing. I am fucking retarded and wasn't paying attention, so it was only natural that I posted this in physical and mental well-being.
Will someone please move this to philosophy?
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7823353 - 01/02/08 11:31 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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You'll get every sort of response to this, from a simple "you're wrong" to complex (relatively) posts about how quantum effects are made into large-scale effects effecting the functioning of our brain...but you're right.
For evidence, I'll give you a few thousand years of scientific revolutions which explain something which was once "unpredictable". There is no reason to expect that future scientific discoveries will not be able to explain thought in all its forms.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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adrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
#7823367 - 01/02/08 11:34 AM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Is it time for the annual Free Will discussion already?!
Early this year!
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dblaney
Human Being

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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7823618 - 01/02/08 12:41 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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I agree that as socialized and conditioned beings, we have strong tendencies towards predictable actions and reactions. But, I wouldn't go to the extreme of saying that we have no choice or freedom at all. You always have the choice of whether or not to react, and how to do so.
With an issue like free will, I don't know how anyone could go about proving whether or not it 'exists' either way. It may in fact be a completely meaningless question.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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trendal
J♠



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Posts: 20,815
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
#7823666 - 01/02/08 12:53 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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It may in fact be a completely meaningless question.
I believe in the power of choice...but I also believe this is all determined
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
#7823703 - 01/02/08 01:01 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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So you're asserting that all of our choices are already made? Everything that's infinitely forward of here in space-time is determined? Who will be elected president next is already determined?
Determined by whom or what?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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JoseLibrado
return


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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
#7823710 - 01/02/08 01:02 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Just the very notion through which you ask the question, shows me that you have free will and you dont.
I think this makes more sense when we think about how we came to know free will. Through not having it, and vice versa.
Cause and effect work the same way...a cause creates the effect is what is believed in our world. Look at the justice system, most people have absolutly no problem with that.Cause in definition relies on effect to exist.
Now since a cause cannot cause itself, because effect is what is caused, and not the opposite, then a cause to be a cause, must be self-sufficient because a cause is defined as preceeding the effect.
And if a casue does indeed preceed the effect, it must have self-sufficient existence, or it must be casued by itself, in so far as we looked at and believe effect as being caused and not the opposite.
Bu for something to cause itself, would assume that it is not there, to begin with and then caused itself, from nothing. So for cause to preceed effect to be true, you must believe that a thing is created from nothing{lack of a thing}.
This is impossible to me, because to create a thing from nothing, implies that the thing known as ´create´ is a lack of a thing. This is so simple that it becoms extremly hard to grasp for me. Look at what i just said...i point out that create is a thing. Thats all... hahaha. so much for deep complex issues beyond compensaiton and comprehension.
So in order for me to believe then that cause preceeds effect, to create has to be looked at as a lack of a thing...but this cannot be because create is a thing, it has its orgin in imagination so to deny it as a thing, we must deny imagination, aswell. We must also deny, denial as a thing as well.Might as well deny this whole passage, cuz i didnt create this thing...
-------------------- The mind is a creative tool. It searches to protect you, through message sensations(feelings). It is no different than a computer, you need to make sure its anti-virus program is in check and that it doesnt have a script that limits your experience, because of to much precaution. And remember the computer does not appear to respond to words of anger and frustration - just give it input, in the form of new meanings that you know to be true and its messages to you and the limits it lays out for you, will change. Guilt is an outcome of believing you are the cause of the problems. Yet, we are not a cause to something, we see is negative or bad - Unless you believe your intentions are directed towards a bad outcome....
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trendal
J♠



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Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
#7823759 - 01/02/08 01:17 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Determined by whom or what?
Call it the Primal Cause...of where it came I have no idea.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7823768 - 01/02/08 01:19 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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You have completely mixed up what cause and effect mean...
Every cause is also an effect. That's how causality works.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond



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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: JoseLibrado]
#7823910 - 01/02/08 02:07 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Possibilities are strong causes !
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
#7824218 - 01/02/08 03:46 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Determined by whom or what?
Call it the Primal Cause...of where it came I have no idea.
A Primal Cause? Could you elaborate please?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7824224 - 01/02/08 03:49 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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The Sufis, I think, have an interesting idea of free will. They say that it is not something that we are automatically born with, but instead a state that we must grow into through experience and practice.
This point strikes me because especially here in the western world, free will is considered a basic human right.
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fivepointer
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7824301 - 01/02/08 04:14 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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According to Christian theology (Protestant, Reformed, Calvinistic) man does not have a free will and absolute predestination is true. Man only acts according to his nature and he can not change that. Only the grace of God can change that nature and give a new disposition in the new birth.
All things are ordained according to the will of God. God does not merely foresee events, but actually causes events to transpire according to his decree.
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trendal
J♠



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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
#7824311 - 01/02/08 04:20 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Think of it as "God" if you want...what I'm getting at is the initial cause of the Universe, or whatever came "before".
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7824314 - 01/02/08 04:21 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: According to Christian theology (Protestant, Reformed, Calvinistic) man does not have a free will and absolute predestination is true. Man only acts according to his nature and he can not change that. Only the grace of God can change that nature and give a new disposition in the new birth.
All things are ordained according to the will of God. God does not merely foresee events, but actually causes events to transpire according to his decree.
so it decides who goes to hell beforehand? so we don't have a chance then? if god wants us to go to hell then it is already preordained before we are born? that doesn't makes sense...
do you know of somewhere in the bible that says what you had posted before?
thanks!
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
#7824471 - 01/02/08 05:27 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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God ordains all things, even the salvation and damnation of men.
Romans chapter 9 makes the point that God is sovereign and hardens some, while saving others. Many verses point to predestination. The objection of unfairness is dealt with in Romans 9 as well.
I could compile a verse list but it would take me some time.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7824492 - 01/02/08 05:32 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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nah that's cool! whatever is clever! it would only be good to use when certain family members try to convert me to christianity...it's annoying
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7824494 - 01/02/08 05:33 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Don't you ever get bored of that? It must be really bad being like that.  I feel sorry for you
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fivepointer
newbie
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
#7824507 - 01/02/08 05:36 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
kaiowas said: nah that's cool! whatever is clever! it would only be good to use when certain family members try to convert me to christianity...it's annoying
If they are real Christians they will know about this doctrine. Most today are not real and are lost.
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fivepointer
newbie
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Don't you ever get bored of that? It must be really bad being like that.  I feel sorry for you
Why would I get bored of a glorious doctrine that is the lynch pin of true grace? Without predestination salvation must be by works.
To God be ALL the glory!
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7824544 - 01/02/08 05:45 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Whatever dude, I hope you'll get to actually feel happy instead of fearsome.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7824557 - 01/02/08 05:48 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Translation: *chest puffs out and head swells* I am superior for having been chosen and you are inferior because you weren't. I am going to heaven and you aren't. Neener, neener! 
Hmmm, what doth the Great Book have to say on this matter:
Proverbs 3:7
The LORD despises pride; be assured that the proud will be punished.
Um, well OK then.
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fivepointer
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Actually the exact opposite is true. There is no difference between the chosen and unchosen, both are deserving damnation. Since no one chosen was chosen because they had greater merits than anyone else they have no reason to boast against anyone else. It cuts away any and all boasting entirely.
If someone says a person is chosen BECAUSE they performed some action, then this person does have reason to boast in themselves. This is salvation by works and is fatal.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
#7824712 - 01/02/08 06:23 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: Think of it as "God" if you want...what I'm getting at is the initial cause of the Universe, or whatever came "before".
The cause of the universe? What if there were multiple causes and conditions, such as two universes colliding? What if there never was any sort of 'beginning', and reality is simply beginningless?
It seems as if your argument of predestination in this case hinges on reality having a very definitive beginning point in space and time.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7824859 - 01/02/08 06:53 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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I could compile a verse list but it would take me some time.
And who would care?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7824863 - 01/02/08 06:54 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said: Actually the exact opposite is true. There is no difference between the chosen and unchosen, both are deserving damnation. Since no one chosen was chosen because they had greater merits than anyone else they have no reason to boast against anyone else. It cuts away any and all boasting entirely.
If someone says a person is chosen BECAUSE they performed some action, then this person does have reason to boast in themselves. This is salvation by works and is fatal.
Good thing you were chosen then.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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kaiowas
lest we baguette



Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
#7825381 - 01/02/08 09:01 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I could compile a verse list but it would take me some time.
And who would care?
well it would be interesting...from my point of view anyway.
so yeah I would care
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
#7825474 - 01/02/08 09:20 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: The cause of the universe? What if there were multiple causes and conditions, such as two universes colliding? What if there never was any sort of 'beginning', and reality is simply beginningless?
It seems as if your argument of predestination in this case hinges on reality having a very definitive beginning point in space and time.
I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
#7825477 - 01/02/08 09:20 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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guys, my post has absolutely nothing to do with christianity or any god. I'm not excluding the possibility that a god may exist, but it's not really pertinent to what I'm saying.
I'm also not saying that free will does not exist, but that it's an illusion. If you were to plant a seed, YOU know that it will grow into a flower, but the seed doesn't. The seed is just operating off the causes that put it there, much like us.
We are faced with decisions everyday, but you are able to only act in one way. Here's a bad example. Your friend tells you that Macy's is having a huge ass sale, 50% off everything in the store, but you assume it will last a couple days and decide to go tomorrow. You go the next day only to find that the sale has ended and you tell yourself "damn, I should have went yesterday!" But you didn't though, you assumed the sale was going to last a little bit longer. All of our choices are dictated by our present state of mind, comprised of various experiences, tendencies, and whatnot that lead us in a certain direction.
A couple years later, some guy says, "YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS! MACY'S HAS EVERYTHING 50% OFF!" Because of what happened a couple years ago you decide to go to Macy's that very day.
Life is like this every single day. We are faced with choices to make, but the choice we make is the only one we could ever make. When you put chicken, broth, and some noodles in a pot, you get chicken noodle soup, not french onion soup. With people it's the same way, except it's conditions instead of ingredients. Certain conditions produce chicken noodle soup, not french onion soup.
Where this gets deep in my opinion, is when you follow this logic, it assumes some kind of predestination. The first cause sets in forth the effect that is this moment. Only a creator could know what the first cause would produce, just as how only a farmer could know only what a sunflower seed will produce.
God is not important here though, I don't want people getting hung up on him.
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kaiowas
lest we baguette



Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7825606 - 01/02/08 09:51 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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this is a tough question as always...
but lets start by asking ourselves..
what do you mean free will?
do you mean the freedom to act, decide, both, neither...
this is important for the answers you get will partially depend on these definitions. the term free will has a lot of baggage that needs to be unpacked first!
so as a good exercise, how are you going to define free will?
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: kaiowas]
#7825617 - 01/02/08 09:54 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Free Will = To be able to do whatever the fuck you want.
That's my definition
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kaiowas
lest we baguette



Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7825631 - 01/02/08 09:57 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
appleorange said: Free Will = To be able to do whatever the fuck you want.
That's my definition
then yeah we do
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
#7825707 - 01/02/08 10:15 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said: I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.
If, Free will = reality in "RECORD" mode.... ......and..... No free will = reality in "PLAY BACK" mode....
How could you truly tell the difference between the two.....? What would be the scientific test for this.....? 
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7825724 - 01/02/08 10:22 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
trendal said: I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.
If, Free will = reality in "RECORD" mode.... ......and..... No free will = reality in "PLAY BACK" mode....
How could you truly tell the difference between the two.....? What would be the scientific test for this.....? 
>^;;^<
I don't think anyone here has suggested that we have no free will.
We need to focus on my newest most important post though, the one about Macy's 50% off sale.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7825758 - 01/02/08 10:31 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
appleorange said: We need to focus on my newest most important post though, the one about Macy's 50% off sale.
Oh shyt~, I musta~ missed that.....!? 50% off ya~ say..... On sale tomorrow too....? 

Quote:
appleorange said: I don't think anyone here has suggested that we have no free will.
So, you think it is always record mode, or always playback mode.....? Or, it is the illusion of one or the other....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!



Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 10 months, 23 days
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7825766 - 01/02/08 10:34 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Did you have to make this post asking this? And/Or did you do that of free will?
When it is done, the "done" can not be altered.. When doing, the "doing" has every potential one got..
Thus, the free will might be limited, by ones doing, and even of what was done..
"One can use ones freedom, to bind oneself; as being "not free" .. thus choosing to be bound, even when 'deep down', being free.. But, the other way around, when chosen not to be free, or claiming one never 'can be'/was free, being bound, .. then one are bound, even if one chose to be free.. And so it can boil down to, what one take basis in!
Start with freedom, and be either or.. Start with being bound, and be bound.. "
"Free to be bound, and bound to be free!"
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: Gomp]
#7825785 - 01/02/08 10:43 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
So, you think it is always record mode, or always playback mode.....? Or, it is the illusion of one or the other....?
I think it is on record mode, but the outcome cannot be seen ahead of time by us.
Just like my seed analogy, only the farmer knows that a sunflower seed will grow into a flower. We are the seed and seeds don't know too much.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7825817 - 01/02/08 10:55 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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Quote:
appleorange said: I think it is on record mode, but the outcome cannot be seen ahead of time by us. . Just like my seed analogy, only the farmer knows that a sunflower seed will grow into a flower. We are the seed and seeds don't know too much.
OK, your recent post clears up this part of your earlier post....
Quote:
appleorange said: .... just as how only a farmer could know only what a sunflower seed will produce.
I read this a few times, and couldn't figure out why it didn't make sense to me....! That, or maybe I just shouldn't be posting anymore and I should go to bed.... 
But again, how can you think or "know" or test to see if we are actually in record mode, or playback mode.....?
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7825849 - 01/02/08 11:07 PM (16 years, 30 days ago) |
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well, playback mode would imply that everything has already happened and this is simply not true. As of typing this, I have no idea what your next reply will be.
haha, I need to go to bed too, fucking shroomery
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
#7826167 - 01/03/08 01:09 AM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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Quote:
trendal said:
Quote:
dblaney said: The cause of the universe? What if there were multiple causes and conditions, such as two universes colliding? What if there never was any sort of 'beginning', and reality is simply beginningless?
It seems as if your argument of predestination in this case hinges on reality having a very definitive beginning point in space and time.
I tend to buy into scientific ideas...hence my belief in something along the lines of the big bang theory. So yes, my theory rests on the theory of a beginning. Scientifically speaking, my theory is sound.
The Big Bang theory is certainly an interesting one, but it is definitely not air-tight. There are a number of problems with it, but that is neither here nor there.
What about pre-Bang? If there was an uncaused cause, something from nothing, then what's to stop that same phenomenon from occurring again? Why are there not unicorns and dragons poofing into existence randomly? Why don't flowers appear suddenly, without having had to have been planted and nurtured and grown?
The only possible response is that a first cause was a singularity: a one-time freak instance. But again I ask you, doesn't it seem a little odd that such a thing has never happened again (as far as we know)? Speaking from a scientific perspective, which is more likely: the Big Bang (assuming that this is indeed how our universe started) is simply the result of earlier causes and conditions, or the Big Bang was a one-time singularity of something spontaneously and without any prior cause arising from nothing? Going from scientific knowledge, logic, reason, empirical observation, and Occam's Razor, it seems likely that it was the former.
But again, how can anyone know? This is all just idle speculation isn't it? As is this whole thread, I think. What difference would it make in our lives if we concluded there was no free will? Our society needs that pre-supposition to function as it is presently. If there was no free will, then who could be held responsible and accountable for their actions?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Boots
Disenchanted


Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: fivepointer]
#7826659 - 01/03/08 08:42 AM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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It makes sense but since it's not scientifically proven, it's not as easy to believe, specifically for those who like to believe that they have a choice.
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trendal
J♠



Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: dblaney]
#7826688 - 01/03/08 09:01 AM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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What about pre-Bang?
That makes as much sense as saying "what happened in the time before time was created?" It really is pointless to assume we know (or even can know) what exists beyond the confines of this space-time.
If there was an uncaused cause, something from nothing, then what's to stop that same phenomenon from occurring again?
That's a pretty big assumption, don't you think? Again, to assume the existence of anything which lies outside of this space-time is folly.
If you want my personal opinion on the matter, I think our universe began as a piece of something else - some other space-time - which expanded into a loop (think of a space-time "tube", with one end at the beginning of time and the other at the end of time, and the ends are connected to something much larger).
What difference would it make in our lives if we concluded there was no free will? Our society needs that pre-supposition to function as it is presently. If there was no free will, then who could be held responsible and accountable for their actions?
I think the key part of what you said was as it is presently 
If we concluded there was no free will maybe it would promote a little more compassion out of people. If someone commits a crime, it's still their fault that the crime was committed. They still deserve punishment. On the other hand we should be compassionate with our punishment. Understand the why of the criminal actions.
I can still make choices about the future, and I do so quite often. It certainly feels like I have freedom of will...from this viewpoint. I just understand that I always was going to make the choices I will make in the future...I just don't know what I was going to choose until I do choose
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
Edited by trendal (01/03/08 09:09 AM)
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: trendal]
#7826822 - 01/03/08 09:46 AM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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I agree with trendal.
If my original post is true, then it means that more compassion is needed towards criminals because their crimes were done out of ignorance.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....



Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7828549 - 01/03/08 06:00 PM (16 years, 29 days ago) |
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Aaaahhh, nevermind.... This is just another stalemate dicsussion anyways.... 
>^;;^<
Edited by PhanTomCat (01/03/08 06:14 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#7831336 - 01/04/08 09:49 AM (16 years, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said: Aaaahhh, nevermind.... This is just another stalemate dicsussion anyways.... 
>^;;^<
IMO this is the best post in this thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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justamonkey
Stranger



Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 292
Loc: Upstairs
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: Icelander]
#7834605 - 01/05/08 06:35 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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Hey man, who cares whether you choose something or it was gonna happen anyway? Sit back, put your feet up, and enjoy the show.
-------------------- [quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Free Will An Illusion? [Re: appleorange]
#7834688 - 01/05/08 07:52 AM (16 years, 27 days ago) |
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I think the context and question are misleading it is not about choice it is about movement. movement is much more complex than choice which is binary, and the examination of it crumbles into tedious argument
think of freedom in terms of movement.
some movement is merely tropism. (to light, away from pain...) other movement is inspired.
to have inspired movement, one immerses into culture and wisdom which is in itself a kind of move.
move in light, people, and see what freedom is.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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