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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Belief without evidence is mental illness
    #7800014 -

It is all the same sickness and yet the individual who holds such a view fails to see it.

Christian: Islam is stupid. There is no evidence that Mohamed was God's prophet or that Allah exists.

Muslim: Christianity is stupid. There is no evidence that Jesus was God's son or that Yahweh exists.

UFO aficionado: Please don't lump me in with those who believe in ghosts, although you can group me with Crop Circle jerks, 2012 and free energy device dreamers.

Ghost buff: Please don't lump me in with those wacky UFO nut jobs. That is stupid to believe we are being visited from another galaxy. However, it is obvious that certain places are haunted and that souls sometimes remain near where they died.

On and on it goes. My unsupported belief is righteous while your unsupported belief is wacky.


Future respondent: Jeez, OG are you going to be all egotistical and tell us you hold no unsupported beliefs?

OG: Perhaps, I do. Point it/them out and I will examine it/them critically and dispassionately.

If it is not mental illness to merely hold such a belief (say due to childhood brainwashing), it certainly IS mental illness to CONTINUE TO HOLD such a belief in the face of contravening evidence or exposed inconsistencies in such a belief.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/26/07 04:45 AM)

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800023 -

OG FOR PRESIDENT!!!


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800050 -

I think you're overgeneralizing things.
I agree that perhaps in most cases it CAN lead to mental illness. Belief itself is just another way of handling life's confusing moments and also replacing the deep unknown with SOMETHING.
We as humans feel the need to have it all explained, and this is a SURVIVAL trait, and if used properly and with common sense can even have positive effects. Anything that is being used with a degree of responsibility can lead to good outcomes.
Let's imagine the cavemen + lighting & fire scenery.
Perhaps the lighting killed one of his family members and he feels sad. But also it was the fire produced by it which helped him create heat for the rest of his family.
His mind has no notion about how lightings happen, but this doesn't mean that his mind doesn't wonder and feel the need to find some kind of explanation. So here comes god. God must have a human figure and mighty attributes.
The human figure is because being human is all that the caveman knows and can relate to.
The mighty powers that come along with god are all those beyond the understanding events.
He needs to get along with his life and try to make some sense of what's happening to him, and he needs to rid the pain caused by the loss of his family member. So he thinks... god must have done it... well, he took my relative away from me, but he gave me the opportunity to make fire and help myself and my family feel warm in the very cold days.
If we look deeper, we see one of the basic life principles: yin and yang. Balance. Duality. :yinyang:
It's also a sign of intelligence. Trying to understand and to alleviate pain IS a definite sign of intelligence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800149 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
If it is not mental illness to merely hold such a belief (say due to childhood brainwashing), it certainly IS mental illness to CONTINUE TO HOLD such a belief in the face of contravening evidence or exposed inconsistencies in such a belief.


Mental illness?

Come on Org.

What you describe could be a lot of things. Stupidity... blind faith... egotism... stubbornness... pride... etc ("Ignorance" is the word I'd use.). It is not mental illness when a human believes in something for no good reason.

It is a sociological issue, not a psychological illness.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800152 -

Yup, but it has all the chances into becoming mental illness.
Let's not forget that the sleep of reason produces monsters.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800159 -

Quote:
it certainly IS mental illness to CONTINUE TO HOLD such a belief in the face of contravening evidence


mental illness
n. Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors

Clinging to a belief when facts show it to be in error is certainly AN IMPAIRMENT OF COGNITIVE FUNCTIONING.


--------------------

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800179 -

Yes, and if social gullibility weren't HUMAN NATURE... I'd agree with your mental illness thesis.

So, fact man, what is your next move going to be?

Are you going to look at the evidence, or are you going to simply press on with your theory that people who don't look at evidence are socially ill?

Humans are socially gullible. Humans fall for religious scams all thew time. Lesser animals would never be so stupid.

p.s. The whole religion is a mental illness shtick is Bill Maher's. You may owe him royalties.

p.p.s. Oh, and HEY! Pulling out the definition... that's MY trademarked move! You owe me a little cash for that one. Does $3 each time you use one of my tricks sound about right?


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (12/26/07 08:25 AM)

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800181 -

:what:

Is this post for real? :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7800185 -

Quote:

Is this post for real?


What did I just say about gullibility? :tongue:

Come on MT, you gotta' entertain the Org once in a while.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800187 -

I'll have to open a thread about the proper use of emoticons :yesnod:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7800190 -

Now THAT would be a philosophical discussion.

:thumbup:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Rose]
    #7800207 -

The best way is to be agnostic to metaphysical ideas, then again
no one knows the truth about this ideas as science cannot interpret them.

If it crosses within the borders of physics, then there is going to be arguments.


--------------------
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him” ~ buddah

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Purple Mushroom]
    #7800424 -

Science cannot interpret anything. It only describes. The interpretation is that what follows outside of science and leads to new questions, which can be again scientifically formulated to get a description of the results, which has to be interpreted again and so on :smile:
Science is only one (quite reliable and objective) method of many, to describe reality. In fact, it's only a part of our total reality and there are fields existing, lying outside of its range, at least for us yet. It may be that forever, but eventually everything will be explainable through science even, which doesn't exclude he 'influence' and 'realm' of 'spirituality' - whatever, we begin to look into that by exploring our mind and its 'physical consciousness' in relation to psychology, sociology, biology and many more disciplines.
It's all about the description of dependencies and interdependencies.

The interpretation is quite in another book.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (12/26/07 11:28 AM)

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800465 -

Quote:
Point it/them out and I will examine it/them critically and dispassionately.


Alright, I just pointed out an unsupported belief.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800477 -

I think to some degree we all hold beliefs without solid evidence. Much of it goes unnoticed because it's to close (obvious) to be seen. All humans think unskillfully (a better term IMO), some much more than others.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800535 -

-American / so-called "citizen" of any "nation" or "state" on this planet:

"My "freedom" is granted by some pieces of paper. These pieces of paper also dictate the rules of government. Government will always operate according to the rules on those pieces of paper, which are designed to ensure fairness for all.
The people that comprise the government are chosen regionally by the "citizens", to act in the best interest of those "citizens" whom they "represent". These representatives then make further "laws" that I am obligated to follow because I am a "citizen" of this "state" and "nation".

These are some of the beliefs instilled by the "educational" system, yet there is zero evidence to prove any of it.
Schools are breeding grounds of this disease. So-called "educators" are infecting our children.
Politics is a playground for the terminally ill.

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7800627 -

We all have our own forms of evidence. We all generalize based on our own observations. The real mental illness lies in thinking that your beliefs are in any way objective.

Quote:
Whenever you stop and reflect, "Maybe I just think or act that way because I'm a Cosmic Schmuck," you become -- for a moment -- a bit less of a Cosmic Schmuck.

The more often you have such suspicions, the less of a Cosmic Schmuck you will become. Continue relentlessly and you will make yourself ineligible for political office. Tsarists will call you a flipflopper.

On the other hoof, if you NEVER suspect that you might think or act like a Cosmic Schmuck, you will remain a Cosmic Schmuck forever. Continue on that path and you will accumulate so much power that nobody will dare tell you how enormous a Cosmic Schmuck you have become. You might even end your days in the Oval Office.

Or that's what I suspect.


-- Robert Anton Wilson


--------------------

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7801201 -

BlueCoyote said:
Science cannot interpret anything. It only describes. The interpretation is that what follows outside of science and leads to new questions, which can be again scientifically formulated to get a description of the results, which has to be interpreted again and so on :smile:
Science is only one (quite reliable and objective) method of many, to describe reality. In fact, it's only a part of our total reality and there are fields existing, lying outside of its range, at least for us yet. It may be that forever, but eventually everything will be explainable through science even, which doesn't exclude he 'influence' and 'realm' of 'spirituality' - whatever, we begin to look into that by exploring our mind and its 'physical consciousness' in relation to psychology, sociology, biology and many more disciplines.
It's all about the description of dependencies and interdependencies.

The interpretation is quite in another book.


Your quite right, as there is the theory of everything, but it is
still just theory.

Not only this but science still cannot figure out
the mystery of the consciousness nor where it stems from (as far as ive last known).


--------------------
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him” ~ buddah

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Purple Mushroom]
    #7801225 -

First, an accepted definition of 'mental illness' must be established. According to textbook definitions, I don't believe that holding an unsupportted belief should be classified as a mental illness.

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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7801253 -

Actually theres a bunch of different specific conditions (symptom based) that "define" mental illness.

Problem is, nobody at all can define what mentally healthy is.

How can you define insanity when you dont know what sanity is?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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