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Offlinewyldeman007
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Purple Mushroom]
    #7801586 - 12/26/07 06:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Buddy, Your Ego along with mine are "just a theory". Does that make them any less meaningfull? 3, 4, 5, and 6 are just a theory but you can still have 5 of something. Consciousness for all we know could in fact be our brain betraying us into believing that we are in 'control' of our actions. More simply put: our physical form exists in more than just a 3D world; we are enlongated beings snaking through higher dimensions. Our grasp on reality could be no more than a polaroid snapshot. Still not knowing that for sure I can still find truth and meaning in my life.

When people say 'just a theory' it's as if they're saying that it's just a bullshit idea. That's not what theory is though it's so much more than just an idea.

--

Maybe mass mental illness isn't the right phrase, try 'primal thinking'.


--------------------

"We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because they are never going to be born. The potential people who could have been here in my place but who will in fact never see the light of day outnumber the sand grains of Arabia. Certainly those unborn ghosts include greater poets than Keats, scientists greater than Newton. We know this because the set of possible people allowed by our DNA so massively exceeds the set of actual people. In the teeth of these stupefying odds it is you and I, in our ordinariness, that are here." - Richard Dawkins


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OfflinePurple Mushroom
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: daytripper23]
    #7802248 - 12/26/07 10:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, yes more than idea, i should have used hypothetical theory as it is.

But the theory of everything still has yet to be proven accurate.

As with the theory of everything has other theories to prove its
validation, like string theory, m-theory, and so on.

It's logical but it doesn't mean its right (well of course), so
i concede as to you pointing that out.

Of course there is theory for consciousness, but they have yet to figure a theory as to why it came to be or where it comes from and such or atleast a proven theory.

As for belief without evidence is mental illness, isn't this contradictory or paradoxical?

This is exaggerated as to if someone believes reality is a way of
expressing thoughts, then who is to say the above?

As if there is no evidence to make that belief untrue then
there is no way to say its wrong as truth unless otherwise
it has been solved objectively.

Simply put: if the belief is subjective and there is no evidence or knowing of the objective side that the belief is about, then in turn there is no evidence to prove its wrong.

Wow this is one hell of a topic (i guess im mentally ill pffft lol), How do we know that mental illness is what it really says it is?

The evidence would have to be a thought of illness or what is consider d ill but that would mean its a belief and the evidence to go along with would be subjective correct? And to that we do not know the true nature(objective)of reality is then this concludes we are all mentally ill no? And this is then a paradox?

I think i may have a got a bit ahead of myself.



--------------------
“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him” ~ buddah


Edited by Purple Mushroom (12/26/07 10:49 PM)


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7803573 - 12/27/07 11:19 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I have no evidence that I love my girlfriend.

However when she is not near I experience a certain longing, and I find myself thinking about her more often that I do most people.

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness? Or is it simply a good way to describe a subjective experience that is made real by the spiritual aspect of my self?

Similarly, perhaps there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus was the messiah. However, my Uncle describes a specific moment when Jesus came into his heart, and he was filled with an overwhleming experience of deep unity with all aspects of the Universe. Before this happenned he was an alchoholic and a womanizer with multiple illegitamte children who he didn't talk to. Today he is clean and sober, bright and loving with a grin permanently on his face, and is actively a father and grandfather to all his progeny. I would say that he is walking evidence of what he claims to be true, that Jesus is his savior. To him, the only way he was able to change and become who he is now was by knowing Jesus. He is not mentally ill. I'd say he is in pretty good shape.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7803595 - 12/27/07 11:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.


--------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Silversoul]
    #7803608 - 12/27/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




But are you agreeing with me that love exists?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7803616 - 12/27/07 11:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You have drawn subjective conclusions as to what evidence is.

For example I would describe your longing for your girlfriend (from your description) as attachment and neediness rather than real love (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this). You saying it's a spiritual aspect of yourself would not jibe with my definition of spiritual.
See how this goes?

IMO we're all a little tilted (we all have splinters in the windmills of our minds -Carol Burnett). So that isn't even worth debate for me. But your Uncle has found a belief that works for him and that's what counts IMO. As long as he interferes with no one else then all is well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7803683 - 12/27/07 11:49 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




But are you agreeing with me that love exists?



Yes


--------------------


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7804031 - 12/27/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You have drawn subjective conclusions as to what evidence is.




I have drawn the conclusion that evidence in itself can be subjective rather than objective in nature, because ORG's original post seemed to rest fundamentally on the notion that a lack of objective evidence of any sort of true cosmic power of Jesus or Mohammed thereby negates the validity of any subjective spiritual experience that Christians or Muslims claim to have had. Could you be more specific with your criticism?

Quote:

For example I would describe your longing for your girlfriend (from your description) as attachment and neediness rather than real love (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this). You saying it's a spiritual aspect of yourself would not jibe with my definition of spiritual.
See how this goes?




Well, my description was hypothetical, so there is no need to argue about what "love" is. That wasn't my point. I was using love as an example because most people believe it exists, although there is no evidence that it does. However you, personally, care to define love is up to you, but when it comes to producing evidence that your "love" exists and is more relevant than my "love," well than you are just as helpless as I am. That was the point of my argument.

The crux of my argument is that if it is a sign of mental illness to believe in Jesus or Mohammed than it is equally a sign of mental illness to believe in love or hate or joy or even hunger...or any internal experience that affects the intellectual mind or an individual's motivations.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: gluke bastid]
    #7804429 - 12/27/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

We are not is disagreement here. I also believe all truth/belief is subjective.

By OCs definition we are all crazy.

I guess I didn't quite get what you were driving at.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Silversoul]
    #7804794 - 12/27/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




No one murders another for like, only for love.


--------------------


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7804807 - 12/27/07 05:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

By OCs definition we are all crazy.





Seems you are making progress, Grasshopper.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7806869 - 12/28/07 09:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




No one murders another for like, only for love.




By your definition of love maybe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7807035 - 12/28/07 10:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

To say that I am in love with her is mental illness?



Love is the greatest and most beautiful form of mental illness known to man.




No one murders another for like, only for love.




By your definition of love maybe.



Yes, many people confuse love with attachment or dependency. There we are back at the first question.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7807042 - 12/28/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed so. Love in most humans understanding (and actions) goes little further than the statement "I love my ice cream". If they actually looked deeply into their motives I believe it would be the same when they say, "I love my children" or "I love my girlfriend" or "I love God"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7807090 - 12/28/07 10:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed. It's relatively simple in theory but extremly difficullt to practice.
To never be able of letting go would be similar to overeating with one's favourite ice-cream.
It will become stale, then will melt away and after that one even gets tummyache. Ignorant people even then will smash their brothers face if he will get the next portion of ice-cream.
Or beat their wives and children about that, what they themselvesn didn't/don't/won't get...

:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/28/07 10:54 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: Icelander]
    #7807372 - 12/28/07 01:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

By your definition of love maybe.




Puh-lease! It is not MY DEFINITION, but that of the perpetrator of the crime of passion. "I loved her too much to see her with another!"

You may flatly state, "Well THAT certainly isn't love," but if you do then you are saying your viewpoint is the correct one and theirs is in error.

And isn't this personal certainty the very thing you constantly rail against on these boards?


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7807385 - 12/28/07 01:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

yes


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7809523 - 12/29/07 01:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If it would be the same 'love' it wouldn't destruct each other, as those who know about love know that attachment kills love.

Can you really say that someone who beats his wife or children does really love them ? That's not in my book.
In other words, can somebody love anything or anybody, without loving himself first ?
[Maybe that's worth another thread, but we had that topic already as far as I remember]
But is that 'tainted' love proof of the inexistence of love ? Au contraire.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (12/29/07 01:45 AM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7810077 - 12/29/07 09:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Can you really say that someone who beats his wife or children does really love them ?




One last time (hopefully) for those HARD OF READING, I make no claims as to what love is or is not. Abusers and murderers frequently say they love(d) their spouse. Perhaps they do much of the time unless they are drunk or in a rage, I do not know.

If you have a spat or an argument with your girlfriend does that mean that you don't love her? In other words, is ANYONE 100% loving 100% of the time? Me no think so. Does that mean that no one loves another?

You tell me.


--------------------


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Belief without evidence is mental illness [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7810267 - 12/29/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

So one can switch love on and off.
Does a believe in something that sometimes exists also is mental illness ?
Maybe simply only if it's believed in a situation where it is absent.
So it would be mental ill to say he beats his wife out of love.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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