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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3105652 - 09/07/04 10:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If you say so.


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OfflineMetatrad
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Zahid]
    #3105693 - 09/07/04 10:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Does this refuting of evolution happen to involve the giraffe as an example? If so, I've heard it before.

So, what's so hard to believe about particular genetic variations/mutations of a species being better for survival, hence living long enough to procreate?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Metatrad]
    #3105769 - 09/07/04 11:11 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I couldn't really recall, but I have read some fairly well composed books (Such as 'The Evolution Deceit' by Harun Yahya) and articles that refuted Evolution using biology and science to its advantage. I am not a scientist, thought.

I am however an Evolutionist and a Creationist - I believe evolution was instrumented by God, and only in the last few 10,000 years the interesting result of this gradual growth has reached its viewing point.


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Zahid]
    #3107246 - 09/08/04 07:33 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

first of all, just say insane instead of "schizo"
and second of all beleiving in god a form of scizophrenia ask yourself is beleif in insanity or "schizophrenia" a form of paranoia?

also maybe not beleiving in god is a sign of weakness, insecurity maybe?
let me elborate, the thought of a "higher entity causing us, being our mentor, something we cant understand, we choose not to accept it maybe cause we fear maybe cause were insecure, who knows.
Im probably schizo cause i beleive in GOD.

p.s. zahid im not replying to you but northern soul


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: OOISI]
    #3107274 - 09/08/04 08:23 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

> first of all, just say insane instead of "schizo" and second of all beleiving in god a form of scizophrenia

Back up a bit more... what is the definition of insane? How do doctors define what is insane and what is not. Once you understand the definitions, you will see that the original question no longer makes sense.


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3107323 - 09/08/04 09:25 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Now let's not shout "schizophrenia" before we establish for the readers  what Schizophrenia is. 


Quote:

DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA for SCHIZOPHRENIA (American Definition)
.
Diagnostic Criteria
.
.
Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):
delusions
hallucinations
disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition
Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person's behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other.
.
Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset (or when the onset is in childhood or adolescence, failure to achieve expected level of interpersonal, academic, or occupational achievement).
Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least 6 months. This 6-month period must include at least 1 month of symptoms (or less if successfully treated) that meet Criterion A (i.e., active-phase symptoms) and may include periods of prodromal or residual symptoms. During these prodromal or residual periods, the signs of the disturbance may be manifested by only negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).
.
Schizoaffective and Mood Disorder exclusion: Schizoaffective Disorder and Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features have been ruled out because either (1) no Major Depressive, Manic, or Mixed Episodes have occurred concurrently with the active-phase symptoms; or (2) if mood episodes have occurred during active-phase symptoms, their total duration has been brief relative to the duration of the active and residual periods.
.
Substance/general medical condition exclusion: The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.
.
Relationship to a Pervasive Developmental Disorder: If there is a history of Autistic Disorder or another Pervasive Developmental Disorder, the additional diagnosis of Schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present for at least a month (or less if successfully treated).


---------------------------------------------------------------------
.
Diagnostic Criteria of Schizophrenia Subtypes
Paranoid Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:
.
Preoccupation with one or more delusions or frequent auditory hallucinations.
None of the following is prominent: disorganized speech, disorganized or catatonic behavior, or flat or inappropriate affect.
..Catatonic Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the clinical picture is dominated by at least two of the following:
.
motoric immobility as evidenced by catalepsy (including waxy flexibility) or stupor
excessive motor activity (that is apparently purposeless and not influenced by external stimuli)
extreme negativism (an apparently motiveless resistance to all instructions or maintenance of a rigid posture against attempts to be moved) or mutism
peculiarities of voluntary movement as evidenced by posturing (voluntary assumption of inappropriate or bizarre postures), stereotyped movements, prominent mannerisms, or prominent grimacing
echolalia or echopraxia
..Disorganized Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:
.
All of the following are prominent:
disorganized speech
disorganized behavior
flat or inappropriate affect
The criteria are not met for Catatonic Type.
.
..Undifferentiated Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which symptoms that meet Criterion A are present, but the criteria are not met for the Paranoid, Disorganized, or Catatonic Type.
.
Residual Type
A type of Schizophrenia in which the following criteria are met:
.
Absence of prominent delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, and grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior.
There is continuing evidence of the disturbance, as indicated by the presence of negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A for Schizophrenia, present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Differential Diagnosis
Psychotic Disorder Due to a General Medical Condition, delirium, or dementia; Substance-Induced Psychotic Disorder; Substance-Induced Delirium; Substance-Induced Persisting Dementia; Substance-Related Disorders; Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features; Schizoaffective Disorder; Depressive Disorder Not Otherwise Specified; Bipolar Disorder Not Otherwise Specified; Mood Disorder With Catatonic Features; Schizophreniform Disorder; Brief Psychotic Disorder; Delusional Disorder; Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise Specified; Pervasive Developmental Disorders (e.g., Autistic Disorder); childhood presentations combining disorganized speech (from a Communication Disorder) and disorganized behavior (from Attention-Deficit/ Hyperactivity Disorder); Schizotypal Personality Disorder; Schizoid Personality Disorder; Paranoid Personality Disorder.





If you, the reader, have read this carefully and basically read the story of your life & hardships or feel worried this might pertain to you by all means I urge you to get a psychologic evaluation to see if you not qualify for medical treatment.
If people are caught by psychological screening with only latent, residual psychosis or they are identified between psychoses usually a low, minimally unpleasant or even pleasant dosage of specific pharms may prevent future episodes from occurring at all.

I myself am on low-dose haldol (2mg = 100mg chlorpromazine as to psychotic efficiency) because i basically am excitement, being a chronic maniac (most of the time I am lightly manic, let's call it "euphoric derangement" :grin:)
For me after years with & without it causes no real side-effects but it rather it helps me to have conversations without coming across like a  crazed squirrel on crack.

But the bottom line is that religion is compared with mental illness. Medically an illness is "something biological/pychological that strays from the average norm in a way that is percieved as detrimental by the affected and/or those around them".
Since the USSR (like the USSA today) repressed people by abusing this principle (Politicopath :shocked:Capitalist Personality Disorder :shocked:) you should apply common sense and get apolitical with definitions.
I could declare somebody's red nose (or homosexuality) as adverse to my happiness but thats just bullshit political reasoning.

So let's look at your list from another side:



Feeling like something is watching you ---> or benevolently watching OVER you in perfect love and perfect trust.

Talking to yourself and imaginary beings or people. "Praying." ---> reinforcing your beliefs in the Greater Good and that you can be better then you are and that there is hope by externalizing thought processes.

Feeling like you have a special purpose ---> striving to achieve a goal you think will make the world a better place

Feeling like inanimate objects have special purposes ---> recognising and perhaps enhancing the value of objects, increasing your appreciation of the Any & All

Certain things appearing as signs, or that they are talking to them, or are symbolic to some higher cause. ---> LSD

Beliving you are going to die for doing something "bad" ---> dogma very specific to some religions but not others.

Feeling like you are dirty for doing something, and that you will suffer for eternity if you do not talk to yourself or to this "god"... ---> dogma very specific to some religions but not others.


Basically it is a double-edged sword: you can reinforce the good or the bad in people with Religion.

I hate to say it but basically Religion, like LSD, is a neutral entity: it can be detrimental or uplifting, deliberate or unintentional.

Visonaries in a way could be argued to be schizophrenic, but because they derive and yield benefit rather then detrimental chaos it is not a mental illness even though the core symptoms may overlap.

Have you ever had such vivid hallucinations that they completely replaced concensus reality, with voices speaking, past and future merging wit flights of fancy, being fully delivered into the maw of an insane logic where fantasy and reality are the same, a delirium followed by near-complete amnesia?
And would you voluntarily yield to this madness?

Yes. It is called Dreaming and we do it most nights of our life. We -all- are visionaries at heart. The alarmclock makes you arise briefly from your fullblown delirium.
You slap the "snooze" button.
You're out, and you're gone.
When it buzzes again, nine minutes later earthtime, you have spent hours of Dreamtime riding a wild pineapple, hunting and shooting your own oats & raisins for your early morning muesli in fullblown Delirium. Now that is HEALTHY.

If you get an overlap of waking consiousness into dreams it is called "lucid dreaming".

If your "dream machine" starts to run by itself in daytime the result is chaos, and from that chaos you either emerge victorious (Visionary) or you crumble, and the latter is called a psychotic break.

New neurobiological data I've seen shows there is an overlap in mechanism in Dreams, Delirium and Psychosis and thus I believe that the core nature of psychosis is a disturbance in the brain's ability to regulate waking and dreaming conscious brainstates.
Sane by day/Psychotic by night :evil: is the norm.


So bottom line is that Religion can either add to or alleviate mental illness to some extent.
Its not important whether we are dealing with the GOD Hardware Co. or with GOD.exe its important that the 75% of people on this good Earth who are religious constitute the norm and by that norm atheism is the deviation.

Is atheism a form of spiritual dementia? :evil:
F*ck no! Its just ATHEISM.exe like we have RELIGION.exe and i hope we'll find out whether the Universe Server is owned or just exists. :heart:


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3131143 - 09/13/04 09:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

funny you mention this because i see no difference between so called psychotic episodes and religious beliefs.. but you see i dont believe in schizophrenia. schizophrenia is mearly a label psychiatrists give someone who falls under specific diagnositc criteria. Western psychology has such a limited understanding of psychotic individuals that we lock them away and label them as dangers. I consider psychosis as a gift.


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3131207 - 09/13/04 09:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I can say that I "believe in GOD," and I can wax mystical and gnostic and say that "I Know GOD," but I do not cross the line and say "I Am GOD."




Quote:

How is it egotistical to say "I am God"? If God is infinite, then there can't be anything that isn't God, or is separate or outside of God.




--------------When you don't have anything to say, what's better than say nothing at all eh? Markos... I doubt the gnostic part. I also think that you are one of many people who were taught in school how to make their minds to have a tendency to schizophrenia...that is..undoubtedly believe in the existence of god and be so sure that you know you're right. ------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Shroomerious]
    #3131723 - 09/13/04 10:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, well, given your accusatory and apparently paranoid tone, I still come out as having more psychological equipoise in this thread than you do. After all, how can 'you' doubt 'my' tag as "Gnostic?" That is doubting an identity that belongs to 'me,' not you. I live my live as a Gnostic, NOT as an Agnostic, which essentially affirms that I Know GOD in some capacity. This is not special, but it seems special to you, which is what you are objecting to. You think that I am making an extravagant claim, which I am not. I simply have a conscious relationship with GOD - I am conscious of the Presence of GOD in my moment-to-moment life (some moments more than others of course). Schizophrenic I am not.

Perhaps I should add that I am qualified to diagnose and treat mental illnesses psychotherapeutically, and have so with schizophrenic individuals in both individual and group modalities as far back as 1985.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (09/14/04 07:36 AM)


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Asante]
    #3133151 - 09/14/04 05:42 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Will everybody please remember "schizophrenic" is a cluster of medical conditions with rather precise diagnostic criteria?

If anyone means "crazy" just say "crazy".
You don't say "I have a fibrous neocortical tumor" when you mean to say "I got a headache".
Fullblown schizophrenia is a tragic disease in the same social stigma-ballpark as leprosy and it has devastated the happiness af many families.

Since one in ten has an uncle or aunt, parent or have got schizophrenia themselves lets not throw that word around like a water-balloon in a kids game.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Asante]
    #3133280 - 09/14/04 07:26 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

How come you end up at a mental house if you have a invisible non-existant friend unless you call it God?


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3133513 - 09/14/04 10:50 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Yes, well, given your accusatory and apparently paranoid tone, I still come out as having more psychological equipoise in this thread than you do. After all, how can 'you' doubt 'my' tag as "Gnostic?" That is doubting an identity that belongs to 'me,' not you. I live my live as a Gnostic, NOT as an Agnostic, which essentially affirms that I Know GOD in some capacity. This is not special, but it seems special to you, which is what you are objecting to. You think that I am making an extravagant claim, which I am not. I simply have a conscious relationship with GOD - I am conscious of the Presence of GOD in my moment-to-moment life (some moments more than others of course). Schizophrenic I am not.

Perhaps I should add that I am qualified to diagnose and treat mental illnesses psychotherapeutically, and have so with schizophrenic individuals in both individual and group modalities as far back as 1985.




More psychological equipoise than me? I don't think so. And by that do you mean the equipoise forced to you by childhood "innocent" lies?

You know God in some capacity? And you are so sure of it. PROVE IT. If you can't do that then don't say know, say "speculate". And untill you prove it you are not a Gnostic but a Gnostic wannabe or are having or being induced to Gnostic kinds of halucinations.

The fact that maybe you have a qualification has nothing to do with this. What makes you think that you know everything since you have a qualification? Ffs, all our life is a form of schizophrenia and if you can't get that then I'm sorry.


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Offlinehalfoz
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: silversoul7]
    #3135121 - 09/14/04 05:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I have a strong background in biology, actually I majored in it, and the thing that still stumps me, is that it all supposedly started with the big bang, which is only a theory, right? OK. Everything is made up of protons & electrons. Just like the huge mass that exploded, it was made up of the same. Where did the first Protons/Electrons come from? Most scientists would argue from energy. But where did the energy come from? :confused:


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: halfoz]
    #3135158 - 09/14/04 06:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It come from nothing....that is no thing....In the absence of that which is not, that that is, is not. The some-thing came from the no- thing...


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: BlueOrb]
    #3135196 - 09/14/04 06:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Good to see that YOU see where I'm coming from because SOMETHING CANNOT COME FROM NO-THING


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Shroomerious]
    #3135248 - 09/14/04 06:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm sorry also...sorry for you that life seems "schizophrenic" although your usage of the term with regard to life is a wrong usage, unless you are speaking for your own possible condition.

You have no idea what the term Gnostic means either classically or in my own application. The species of Knowing that the word Gnosis means, is not Episteme, not the knowing of empirical data. One does not "prove" Gnosis to another any more than one proves Faith to another. One's entire Way and walk of life becomes testimony to the inner life that motivates one. It is not about discourse or speculation, it is about what kind of person one is - how coherently, or consistently one manifests the inner life in the outer world. I am not subject to hallucinations (visions at times during self-induced non-ordinary states) or delusions.

Knowing, as opposed to not knowing does not make one a 'know-it-all.' "Wannabe" ? How old are we now? I don't know what kind of "lies" were foisted upon YOU as a child, but I grew up in a very permissive household where I was free to do all kinds of exploration and experimentation - scientifically and socially. I have long explored my childhood through self-analysis taught to me by 8 years of professional Jungian analysis and I am pretty much free of childhood neuroses of parental cause.

As to psychological equipoise in this thread, I am not communicating angry or accusatory tones; neither am I making assumptions about your childhood for which I have absolutely no information. You are making a transference to me which I am simply not interested in taking on. I'm not certain exactly what complex you are attempting to put on me, but I'm not going to do analysis with you here.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: halfoz]
    #3135476 - 09/14/04 07:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

halfoz said:
Good to see that YOU see where I'm coming from because SOMETHING CANNOT COME FROM NO-THING



how bout: SOMETHING IS NO-THING, and No-Thing is Something?
that would explain why you got something from nothing? as the both are the result of each other? eternity is a fun subject. why did it have to start? if you got a stamp, whit a circel. and stamped a circel on a piece of paper, where would the circle start and end? and why does it have to? if it does :P


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Gomp]
    #3135549 - 09/14/04 07:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nothing is a concept created by us (something).

or

Something is a concept created by us (nothing).


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3135749 - 09/14/04 08:15 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I said that life as it is perceived is "schizophrenic" and you are one of those people that rush to answer stupidly, totally stupidly with the definition of the term and certainly with facts such us that you are qualified and shit. That is what I meant. Think before you answer. You are stuck in the loop that you are finally a gnosti and you are having a great time with it. I like that and it's fine by me but it is only one of the infinite possibilities of what the objective "truth", if it exists, is.


So is that it? You wanna speak with funky greek words that you are sure I have no idea what they mean? Ok. Gia na exei kapios gnosi den mporei para na exei apodeikseis. Oi apodeikseis einai ayto pou xreiazetai oxi aytes oi paparies pou mou grafeis. Oh I'm sorry if you didn't understand that but I'm sure that if I combined that with some english words it would really really seem that I know what I'm talking about. Gnosis is a pretty straight word. And it means knowledge. You can't have solid knowledge if you don't have Apodiksi, proof for it.

And delusions is what I meant.


Marko, you can continue living in your little lie if it makes you happy I don't care. Oh, so in school, they didn't teach you about religion is that what you're saying? I never mentioned how your family brought you up and I don't care about the information.


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Re: Belief in God: A form of schizophrenia?! [Re: Shroomerious]
    #3136065 - 09/14/04 09:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps the intention of expressing yourself such that everyone can think "that's Greek to me" makes YOU feel superior. Meanwhile, you and I are not communicating, and while it is not true that my reponse is "stupid," your response is revealing of your own disturbance. As I said, I am not here to address your 'issues,' I'm here recreationally to discuss ideas. I hope things improve for you. Adios.


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* Do u Believe, in an unconditional loving God ?
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