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Objectifying women
    #6709555 -

This is something that's been bugging me lately. On the one hand, I think it's a beautiful thing for women to express their sexuality. On the other hand, it bugs me to see them displayed as sexual objects rather than people. And the thing is, I'm not sure where the line between the two is. I've met strippers who seem very self-empowered, yet when I think of how guys view them, I wonder how self-empowering their work really is. I see women paraded around like pieces of meat in rap videos and TV commercials, and just shake my head. And of course, I also have to admit being complicit in this, since as a guy, I am often turned on by such sexual objectification. I know there's a question I'm trying to get at here, but I'm not sure how to phrase it.


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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Silversoul]
    #6709577 -

Silversoul said:
guys i think i'm going gay


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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Silversoul]
    #6709581 -

Human beings have a great variety of different facets of their personality and identity. In my opinion, featuring one aspect of one's existance does not suggest that one is lacking in other aspects of their identity. It doesn't make you any less human. Its an expression of being human.

Humans are multi-dimensional. Humans are beings and we are objects, and we are a ton of other things to. :grin:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: cmoney]
    #6709584 -

Back to OTD with you!  :whack:


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Re: Objectifying women [Re: cmoney]
    #6709592 -

Mind your own business.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Silversoul]
    #6709594 -

"I think it is sad to see how - pardon my French - fucked up modern female culture has become. Today the role of mother is looked down upon and being a "housewife" is an insult to many modern women. This is seen as part of the "male enslavement" of women. To stay home with the children is seen as a nightmare and a burden. Instead they get an education (usually some theoretical nonsense) and do as best they can to become like men. They work like men, dress like men, try to think like men, talk like men and act like men (and some of them even look like men). Since most of the smart women are busy getting an education, the generally more stupid women get most of the children, and as a result of that the whole species is getting dumber - as the average intelligence drops when the stupid women have most of the children.

Cooking too is looked upon with contempt. A (female and American) friend of mine pointed at the fact that women in the USA are actually more likely to slap a man's face if he asks her to cook dinner than for demanding a blowjob on their first date, and I think that says it well. All the "liberation" of women has done is to cause women to replace all the positive characteristics of women with the negative characteristics of men.

The modern women can no longer cook, they no longer want children and they are no longer warm, tidy and loving creatures who think spending time with their family is a good thing. They are probably too "independent" and "strong" to even have a family of their own. The only thing modern women have to offer men today is sex. So instead of being loving housewives who cook and raise children, they are reduced to being sexual objects only - and they are so messed up emotionally and intellectually that they often spend most of the money they make on their jobs on plastic surgery, cosmetics and tons of clothes they think will make them look good, in a desperate attempt to stay or become more attractive. Well, they have no other qualities attractive to men, so what else can we expect? This is the fruit of feminism. The fruit of "women's liberation".

A truly smart woman will understand that being a housewife, raising children and cooking is not demeaning. They perform a task that is extremely important for the whole kin, tribe and nation, and nobody else can do it. Men certainly cannot! Women are equipped with a womb and breasts for a reason. That is just how nature works, whether we like it or not. It is not demeaning for a woman to be a woman. Everybody should understand that, even hateful, self-loathing feminists." --Varg Vikernes

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: it stars saddam]
    #6709633 -

it stars saddam said:
"I think it is sad to see how - pardon my French - fucked up modern female culture has become. Today the role of mother is looked down upon and being a "housewife" is an insult to many modern women. This is seen as part of the "male enslavement" of women. To stay home with the children is seen as a nightmare and a burden. Instead they get an education (usually some theoretical nonsense) and do as best they can to become like men. They work like men, dress like men, try to think like men, talk like men and act like men (and some of them even look like men). Since most of the smart women are busy getting an education, the generally more stupid women get most of the children, and as a result of that the whole species is getting dumber - as the average intelligence drops when the stupid women have most of the children.

Cooking too is looked upon with contempt. A (female and American) friend of mine pointed at the fact that women in the USA are actually more likely to slap a man's face if he asks her to cook dinner than for demanding a blowjob on their first date, and I think that says it well. All the "liberation" of women has done is to cause women to replace all the positive characteristics of women with the negative characteristics of men.

The modern women can no longer cook, they no longer want children and they are no longer warm, tidy and loving creatures who think spending time with their family is a good thing. They are probably too "independent" and "strong" to even have a family of their own. The only thing modern women have to offer men today is sex. So instead of being loving housewives who cook and raise children, they are reduced to being sexual objects only - and they are so messed up emotionally and intellectually that they often spend most of the money they make on their jobs on plastic surgery, cosmetics and tons of clothes they think will make them look good, in a desperate attempt to stay or become more attractive. Well, they have no other qualities attractive to men, so what else can we expect? This is the fruit of feminism. The fruit of "women's liberation".

A truly smart woman will understand that being a housewife, raising children and cooking is not demeaning. They perform a task that is extremely important for the whole kin, tribe and nation, and nobody else can do it. Men certainly cannot! Women are equipped with a womb and breasts for a reason. That is just how nature works, whether we like it or not. It is not demeaning for a woman to be a woman. Everybody should understand that, even hateful, self-loathing feminists." --Varg Vikernes


Times are changing. Roles are shifting. We are becoming a race of individuals with highly individual choices, yes, men and women. I personally enjoy witnessing the changes occuring. It's a time when men can be women and women can be men...polarities are slowly blending, and I suspect this trend will only continue to broaden itself.

I even read of a report on the Shroomery a couple of months ago in the science and technology forum that said a group of scientists in Europe have devised a way to impegnate a woman without the use of a man's sperm. They simply take two eggs from two women and change one of them into a sperm. They theorize the child born will always be female. It's a way to allow lesbians to have biological children. I'll see if I can find the article because it was really interesting.

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: MOTH]
    #6709650 -

here's the thread with the article:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5848611#5848611

In regards to Silversoul:

I guess I don't get too bent out of shape when I see women going nuts over boldly baring their sexuality for the lustful benefit of others...because it's their choice.  :shrug:  There's nothing I can see wrong with enjoying the bodies they are presenting for offering, either.

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: MOTH]
    #6709693 -

lesbians aren't sexy, but if they want to work and not have kids then thats alright by me, there is no shortage of people,

and stupid chicks having kids, is oddly true. Its gives them meaning to take care of a real life cabbage patch doll,

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: capliberty]
    #6709704 -

One of my best friends had 3 children by the time she was 21. I was always slightly aghast at her choice to do this, but whatever, it's her life. But I hear her life is pretty rough because of those three choices at such a young age now.

Makes me think of the movie: "Idiocracy," directed by Mike Judge and starring Luke Wilson. Pretty funny.

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: MOTH]
    #6709731 -

when I meet/talk to a woman (those oh so rare occasions where i emerge from my dark, damp den of self-abasement :lol:) I give their conversation as much weight as i would a male counterpart, but the second they opt to objectify themselves their words turn into blah blah blah and I wonder which hole she prefers it in.

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6709734 -

psilocyberin said:
when I meet/talk to a woman (those oh so rare occasions where i emerge from my dark, damp den of self-abasement :lol:) I give their conversation as much weight as i would a male counterpart, but the second they opt to objectify themselves their words turn into blah blah blah and I wonder which hole she prefers it in.


Yeah...sexuality is a huge distraction.  I agree.

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: MOTH]
    #6709893 -

It makes me sad to see women flaunting themselves shamelessly. It gives the impression that there's nothing positive or respectful about them except for their tits and ass. :shrug:

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Silversoul]
    #6709918 -

On the other hand, it bugs me

Why do you let another's willing behavior bug you? That's one shade away from preaching morality.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: adrug]
    #6709964 -

adrug said:
It gives the impression that there's nothing positive or respectful about them except for their tits and ass. :shrug:


No it doesn't - that is simply your interpretation of the matter.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Silversoul]
    #6709986 -

Here's my rule of thumb re: objectification:

Woman being openly sexual and enticing AND enjoying herself = not an object

Woman being openly sexual and enticing AND not enjoying herself, but desperately continues in an attempt to receive love and approval for something = object

Re: Varg Vikernes--Humans should be able to choose to have children, or not; to be sexy, or not; to cook, or not, without some opinionated prick deciding that feminism is a failed experiment.  :thumbdown:

Edited by Veritas (03/25/07 05:38 PM)

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Diploid]
    #6710003 -

Good point, Diploid.  The issue of female objectification is an issue of personal ethic and compassion, IMO.

In my opinion it is a healthy thing to fantasize and objectify in private, but to separate the fantasy from the being itself.  All human beings are complex, completely unique, and, I suspect, divine beings, just like men.  Learning to communicate effectively with women who objectify themselves is difficult but surely not impossible.

My friend tried to set me up with a female acquaintance of his a few weeks ago, God knows why.  He did it in kind of a crude manner and I was uncomfortable but amused, and played along.  The girl came on very strong to me; I could have chosen to ignore her or refused to engage her, but I felt compelled to talk to her.  I realized almost instantly that she had a very shallow self-conception and that she was insecure about herself physically.  The thing about it was, she was really gorgeous, and she was doing something of real value, pursuing a degree in special education because she felt strongly about helping young handicapped learners.  At any rate, I tried (not forcefully enough) to stop talking to her but she made it a habit of calling and text-messaging me.  Eventually I told her that I think she is a beautiful girl and I really respect her career goals, but that I didn't really feel compatible with her and I felt as if she was objectifying me as a future companion when I had no such desire.

Anyway, she got really upset at me and called my friend and cursed him out for objectifying her - really it was a mutual three-way objectification.  But as it turned out, after she got irate with me she forgave me and kept talking to me, and though I had no real desire to continue a relationship with her I have no problem talking to her - she realized on some level that she was at least equally responsible for the unfoldment of the situation as the other two parties (myself and my friend).

So, the way to not objectify women is to not objectify yourself.  I suspect, Silversoul, that you're a sexy piece of man candy, but I don't know ya.  Anyway, there ain't nothing wrong with being turned on by a Nelly video.  :lol:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Silversoul]
    #6710019 -

I look for (and, blessedly, have) a woman who is whole, but who can look and act like a whore when she wants to. One can't take a whore, or a stripper and have them 'act' like a whole woman.

I highly recommend the book Goddesses in Everywoman by Jean Shinoda-Bolen, M.D.. There is also a Gods in Everyman which I found invaluable for helping to define my own personality make-up in terms of the archetypal elements that she dscribes in terms of the Greek Olympians. The thesis is to show how the 'white light' of wholeness of Self is broken into the spectrum of gods and goddesses, and to what extent each one of us is characterized by differing proportions of these mythic beings (seen as archetypes). In this view, the whore-stripper type of woman has an unbalanced, inordinate degree of Aphrodite in her make-up. If she is independent of men, perhaps lesbian, she might have the Diana constitution which yields independence from men. If she has witchy, enchanting, seductive aspects, it might be Hecate the arch-sorceress whose archetype is informing that aspect. The permutations are endless, but the descriptions are fascinating. An understanding of mythology as the projection of the archetypal psyche is awakened.

Now the Hestia, 'Suzy-homemaker' archetype has long been a staple of American advertisers. The 'girl-next-door' is a Persephone archetype - another favorite since the sitcoms of the 1950s. Lots of men insist on marrying a Hestia woman, but maybe have an Aphrodite woman on the side. Nobody is one-dimensional however, yet certain archetypes predominate. Bolen takes full chapters to illustrate how the ancient myths correspond to the timeless archetypes as well as contemporary manifestations.

I am primarily a Hermes man, with secondary elements of both Apollo and Dionysus, and maybe a third string Hephaestus element (I don't mind working with my hands: fixing things, building things, but I'd rather use my Apollonian logic and experience Dionysian ecstasy). I have touches of other archetypes and marked absences of others, like Zeus. I am not a strong family-man type who bears many children with his consort-wife, but who also has many illicit extra-marital affairs which yield many other offspring for example. I have had training in martial arts as a youth, but despite my name Mark[os] (or the Roman Marc[us]) which derives from Mars-Ares, I do not have a martial archetype defining much of my personality.

We have to understand that the culture we live in is so utterly informed by the media, and those multitudes who absolutely MUST own the latest $1000 handbag or electronic gimmick, are as mindless and unawakened as this accusation appears arrogant. I'm sorry, but sexy women paraded for any reason is done so because 'sex sells.' Other archetypal images sell also, but to different audiences. The US culture in general, and the Miami culture in particular, is a hypersexualized culture which is informing 13 year old adolescents to wear push-up bras and unbuttoned middle school uniform blouses!

Hip Hop culture exploits the sexuality of the streets - the pimp-prostitute relationship - a relationship of sex-as-commodity, and it has replaced romance, dating or even the natural moralities of the hippy generation which believed that two people had to at least like one another, if not love one another, in order to commence with sexual congress. It's not exclusively Hip Hop caused of course. The late 70s 'Wam Bam thankyou ma'am,' Bowiesque mentality, fueled by hyperaroused cocaine intoxications helped bring limbic-system arousal to the fore, cutting out higher cortical functioning in the service of human interactions. Things took a downward turn toward the instinctual from the spiritual. Gold plated razor blades hung from the necks over the heart-space where colorful humble love beads had been only a few years earlier. The culture was becoming poisoned even then. It is now a cesspool of mindless, heartless low-chakra based sounds and culture which spawn only a low-life street mentality. Sex in the service of the ego. Violence in the service of the ego. Sex in the service of violence (as in some videos), and violence in the service of sex (in the fetish trips). Love? Seeking? Transcendence? Nowhere to be found in the popular youth culture.

The culture is 'satyric' and 'centauric.' Half-humans run around dominated by their animal natures, ungoverned and unmediated by their potentially angelic better halves. Does this flaming ramble approach the question you sought to formulate?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Silversoul]
    #6710064 -

Silversoul said:
This is something that's been bugging me lately. On the one hand, I think it's a beautiful thing for women to express their sexuality. On the other hand, it bugs me to see them displayed as sexual objects rather than people. And the thing is, I'm not sure where the line between the two is. I've met strippers who seem very self-empowered, yet when I think of how guys view them, I wonder how self-empowering their work really is. I see women paraded around like pieces of meat in rap videos and TV commercials, and just shake my head. And of course, I also have to admit being complicit in this, since as a guy, I am often turned on by such sexual objectification. I know there's a question I'm trying to get at here, but I'm not sure how to phrase it.


Right on. I have struggled with this most of my life. Because I had a very dysfunctional childhood I had to learn everything I knew about sex from porn and the streets. Eventually it left me an emotional cripple when it came to relationships. Fantasy was more to my liking and I really was afraid to relate to a real female as a real person; sexually or otherwise. Changing this is a lifelong struggle for me and has caused me tremendous suffering. I'm not against porn or any of that. I just think it's tremendously out of balance in our outlook on sexuality. Objectifying women can leave one very lost and alone.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Objectifying women [Re: Diploid]
    #6710490 -

Diploid said:
Why do you let another's willing behavior bug you?


Same reason you let another's beliefs bug you.


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