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Offlinelancifer
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Registered: 01/14/06
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Fospher]
    #5194913 - 01/18/06 12:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

lancifer said:
There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.





Are you one of those 'natural only' people? The side effects (or lack of) psiloc[yb]in and LSD are virtually one and the same.




What? Psylocybin has a 4-6 hour effect. LSD always seems to last 12 hours for me. I'm not an 'all natural' fellow, enjoying ketamine on occassion, cocaine on occassion, GHB on occassion etc. When I can get it I love 2CB! I never get a 'hangover' from mushrooms.
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5194916 - 01/18/06 12:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Metasyn said:
owever, in a mainstream, MTV, public school, etc culture that so many exist in, it would be a serious detriment to the child's ability to interact with that culture.




How so? I do not see how a psychadelic experience would not be congruent with an ability to interact within the culture that one is present.

A child learns to behave in different manners in different situations. They learn the difference between how to behave in school and in one's room with all of their toys, between dinner at a restaurant and of munching popcorn with a friend. Different actions are only appropriate at certain times, and children learn to discern the difference and act accordingly.

I do not see why, during these formative years, it would not be beneficial to also learn to develop insightful, spiritual behavior. In an individual who is beginning to develop social roles and relationships with the world in which they interact that will quite possibly obstruct their ability to center themselves in their state of being and to be aware of their consciousness, it would seem necessary to have experiences that will ensure they never lose that connection with a state beyond their illusory sense of self that their mind is currently forming.

Entheogens assist such experiences, and proper set and setting, complete with loving, understanding parents, would ensure that the experience is within the proper context and that the child would take responsibility for the experience and would also that they would continue to interact in different situations as they should.

It is plainly obvious to everyone here that society is not properly raising children into mature, individual human beings with positive, engaged outlooks and a higher path for them to walk. Ever wonder why that is?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinelancifer
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Registered: 01/14/06
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194925 - 01/18/06 12:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
lancifer,
working with kids is not about you; and raising kids
is not about changing society or doing something the way you want to, it is about nuturing them for their sakes and setting useful examples for them to make use of.
It is about giving.

I get the impression that you are waging a personal battle and your kids may be a part of that battle field.




So, by accompanying their parents during a night of ayahuasca journeying I'm somehow 'imperiling them for life or something'? Tell that to all the Amazonian tribes, the Rastafarians, the Coptic Christians etc. I'm not 'battling' anyone or anything anymore. though i do plan on taking mushrooms through the canadian courts (with damn good lawyers).
A useful example is real people having real healing journeys. Not 'your somehow irrelevant because your small'. I have well adjusted kids, and we get comments on their fine behaviour all the time. To say that drinking aya is somehow 'sinful'...well I just don't buy it.
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Offlinelancifer
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Posts: 82
Loc: Beautiful B.C.
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5194933 - 01/18/06 12:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"raising kids is not about changing society"

I do not condone lancifer's methods as small children lack the development to make use of an entheogenic experience, and teaching them to use drugs recreationally at that age does not instill in them the seriousness of the act.








Recreationally? Where did i mention that or are you simply throwing it out as a red herring? Recreationally does not normally span spending a night in the woods with a bunch of potent women, or drinking aya in ceremenony with a respected ayahuascero.
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194938 - 01/18/06 01:00 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
proper values?
hmmm
like at church?
like at school?
like your parents?
like your buddies?

It is important to teach some core values by example:
IMO those include being human and respecting one another; in short, that's dignity and compassion.
Much of the rest depends on your interests, this is something each person has to discover for themselves.
If you can help the child do that, great, otherwise you have to get out of the way.




No doubt! In other words...leave it up to someone else.
I am blessed by living in a very psychedelic community. My son has been to more outdoor 'dawn sets' in many a wondrous space than I have!
In the 'Continuum Concept' you take your kids with you wherever you go. How are they to learn to do things in a sane manner if they are left behind?
I've seemingly opened a can of worms here!
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5194954 - 01/18/06 01:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

so you actually admit that you are waging a personal battle in the courts, and using your children as a first line of defense.

You might ask aya how that is putting them first as opposed to putting them in the line of fire first.

Anyway I never said aya is evil.

Also the social matrix of an Amazon indian tribe is fundamentally different than BC, Canada. --- the option remains for you to emigrate.
But ask you kids first what they want. they may not want to go.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194979 - 01/18/06 01:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
and using your children as a first line of defense.




Where the hell do you get this from? :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleMetasyn
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5194985 - 01/18/06 01:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
is plainly obvious to everyone here that society is not properly raising children into mature, individual human beings with positive, engaged outlooks and a higher path for them to walk. Ever wonder why that is?





Good point. Something needs to change, and I applaud people for pushing the boundaries of what's known to work. Sure it might fail but what we're used to doing is a failure as well.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5194997 - 01/18/06 01:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

if he goes to court with the story as it has been put here, then the kids will be on the stand, and probably in the newspaper too.
thus they will be in the line of fire in lancifer's private war.
is that nice?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5195116 - 01/18/06 01:51 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Metasyn said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
is plainly obvious to everyone here that society is not properly raising children into mature, individual human beings with positive, engaged outlooks and a higher path for them to walk. Ever wonder why that is?





Good point. Something needs to change, and I applaud people for pushing the boundaries of what's known to work. Sure it might fail but what we're used to doing is a failure as well.




These are good points. I really can't respond to them in the negative because I don't know. And of course everything needs to find expression in Tao. So maybe?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineEdgekrusher
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195158 - 01/18/06 02:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"How are they to learn to do things in a sane manner if they are left behind?"

-Sane? I would think 'sane' closer to NOT tripping.

I was touring this summer and I came across a cute chick with her small infant. Both live in an Arkansas commune and make hemp shoes for a living. Well, this chick is a more extreme lancifer and fed her baby fungus in it's baby-food. I had to listen to this infant cry ALL night. If I wasn't the nice guy I am, I would have punched that bitch in the ovaries.

I view psychedelics as drugs that play with what you already got (mentally). The child's brain is underdeveloped and trying to make sense of the world it's subjected to. There's not a whole lot of life expereince for a tripping shift to be held insightful or even fun. I'm sure it's little more than confusing.

A wise man once called his son to a meeting. "I have traveled and experienced much in my life." He tells his son, "I've made many mistakes and have learned from them. Now, before you go off to experience the world I will tell you all I know in hopes you won't make the same mistakes." The old man then relates his life story to his son...... To make a long story short: The son listens but still ends up making the same mistakes in a slightly different manner. Life can't be taught by another, it must be experienced.

If you're 7yr old want's to try psychedelics on his own accord, I can understand that I suppose. I'm not dissing your parenting skills, but I would imagine a suburbanite fits into society a little bit better than kids from Amazonian tribes.

Although I love drugs, I sure am glad I was born into a normal family. My parents were old deadheads, but thankfuly they kept their business out of sight and out of my mind. I'm not growing up to be the next president, but I love who I am. I got some flushes otw that I plan to share with my folks.

It's your kids, do what you want. The world needs all kinds of people. But hit us up in a few years to let us know if they turned out to be insurance salesmen or something worst.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195187 - 01/18/06 02:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
if he goes to court with the story as it has been put here, then the kids will be on the stand, and probably in the newspaper too.
thus they will be in the line of fire in lancifer's private war.
is that nice?




I'm going to question your entire basis in reality as it has been presented to be understood in this thread. I believe he simply stated "I'm not 'battling' anyone or anything anymore. though i do plan on taking mushrooms through the canadian courts (with damn good lawyers)."

I do not understand why you are under the impression that he is presenting the "story" he has presented here. I am assuming that he was implying that he was going to attempt to change the legal status of using mushrooms in Canada? What does that have to do with his "story" here? Why are you assuming that he is involving his children?

I think you are jumping to bizarre conclusions here. *waves hands in front of your eyes to check your focus*. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5195196 - 01/18/06 02:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lancifer said:
Are you one of those 'natural only' people? The side effects (or lack of) psiloc[yb]in and LSD are virtually one and the same.

What? Psylocybin has a 4-6 hour effect. LSD always seems to last 12 hours for me. I'm not an 'all natural' fellow, enjoying ketamine on occassion, cocaine on occassion, GHB on occassion etc. When I can get it I love 2CB! I never get a 'hangover' from mushrooms.




And you get a hangover from LSD? According to Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_effects.shtml), and from my and the experiences of all my acquaintaces, you appear to be one of the only one that does. But Im not talking about you, either.

Quote:


Give kids LSD...nope!
Let them eat a mushroom stem on an important date in their lives with sane adults around...yep!




We're talking about giving kids these drugs, not your own experiences, remember? How is giving a kid a hit of some low grade different from giving from giving him/her a low dose of mushrooms?

Quote:


There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.




These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5195304 - 01/18/06 02:56 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

glad you asked about the whole reality thing - no answer but glad you asked.
and very pleased to see you waving the hand around in front of figurative eyes.
the conceptual link is figurative in both cases - thecourt-politics-children and the fingers-eyes-reality.

personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.

I like to keep some things separate.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195343 - 01/18/06 03:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.




You prefer to keep them isolated from the world? :confused:

Quote:


I like to keep some things separate.




Thus, keeping them and their minds more seperated from reality.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5195391 - 01/18/06 03:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.




You prefer to keep them isolated from the world? :confused:




This is not an either/or proposition.  Tsk-tsk! Logical fallacy.


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I like to keep some things separate.




Thus, keeping them and their minds more seperated from reality.





This is your opinion, not a fact.  Excluding your children, or anyone else, from some activities in your life does not necessarily limit their grasp on reality. :rolleyes:

I am excluding billions of people from my life experience--are their minds more separated from reality due to this exclusion?

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195524 - 01/18/06 04:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so you actually admit that you are waging a personal battle in the courts, and using your children as a first line of defense.

You might ask aya how that is putting them first as opposed to putting them in the line of fire first.

Anyway I never said aya is evil.

Also the social matrix of an Amazon indian tribe is fundamentally different than BC, Canada. --- the option remains for you to emigrate.
But ask you kids first what they want. they may not want to go.




So by at least trying to change the cultural matrix of where you live by (thus far) offering...and that is a key word here...2 fingertips full of aya (which still made him puke) to my son I'm somehow 'wrecking' him for a decent position in the social ladder? I must be missing your point?
If you have ever tried to get a child to eat something as unpalatable as aya you'd know that they must make the choice. The fingers were offered the next night and declined. But we discussed it afterwords and he's willing to try again later.
As for my daughter, (see above about taste!) she could have simply nibbled the fungi, or supped the tea. You can't force a child to imbibe wreched tasting substances. These were NOT 'honey coated' offerings on a whim.
And as for going through the court system again, I do believe I said 'at a later date'. I intend on setting up a booth on Commercial Drive in Vancouver, asking for I.D. (over 18's) and selling the product I made for 4.5 years "Scooby Snacks". Since they contain cubensis I expect to get arrested and there is a research lawyer who's agreed to take on my case gratis. I don't think I'll take my kid to the park that day.
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Offlinelancifer
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Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5195541 - 01/18/06 04:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Redgreenvines...are you a parent or are you simply shooting from the hip?
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5195558 - 01/18/06 04:34 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I am horrified that you are attempting to do this to your son.
as you explain it graphically here, I hope that people can see what he is facing in his life.

let the child grow and play with children without these extra issues.

there is plenty of time later for issues.
- a little sweet wine is one thing - this powerful medicine is a different type of thing altogether.
with your attempts to join another culture you are becoming his future baggage.
and you are asking us to support that.
If discovered, you could be charged with child molestation and the kid could be separated to a "safe" environment until old enough to contend with you as an equal.

let your quest be your quest. you need no converts to prove your faith least of all you own defenseless children.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5195596 - 01/18/06 04:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.




You prefer to keep them isolated from the world? :confused:





you can vote one vote
you can protest one protest
you should not make a defenseless juvenile fight your cause
public opposition is a force that can be resisted - so the juvenile exposed to this may be inadvertently harmed
this is akin to political abduction or hostage taking before they can vote.

if explaining the issues is not enough to inform them they are not ready to be put on the line to fight or represent causes.

children are here at the beginning of their own paths they are not here to continue your path or to carry your torch.

you should back off on that, for their good, nothing about me, and it should be nothing about you.

I would say that this also has to do with sex (who where when), drugs(who where when), religion, profession, politics as well as taste in clothing art and music etc.


--------------------
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