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InvisibleMetasyn
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Psychedelics and children
    #5191676 - 01/17/06 04:01 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I know this is a somewhat taboo topic in our culture (even our drug-friendly subculture), but what is your opinion about pre-adolescent children being given psychedelics?

This can be potentially dangerous territory, because a child's mind is still forming and a psychedelic agent could seriously mess with development, but on the other hand it could possibly be beneficial - by training their minds to be continually malleable, not falling into the aggressive, egoistic patterns of adulthood, retaining the child-mind, etc.

Clearly there has been no research into this, and few if any anecdotal reports.

What do you think? It is morally acceptable to give psychedelic drugs to children? What about in a ritualistic, spiritual context - the same way one would expose children to the spirituality of religion? Would you ever consider given them to your children?

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OfflineThe_Hobbit
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5191802 - 01/17/06 04:31 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Umm.. I think the earliest age that I would have been ready for psychedelics is 14. Everything was too good before that point. I wouldn't want to ruin my innocence. 14 is when I learned self awareness and respect, so I figure that's when I became a man.


--------------------
Smoking my hobbit leaf...
Please keep in mind that I am just a human being. Please read my posts carefully and interpret their meaning for yourself.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: The_Hobbit]
    #5191830 - 01/17/06 04:41 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

there is no need to do this
and little gain to do this

it is a personal exploration -
&
a big part of coming of age is that
you do it without your parent.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5191851 - 01/17/06 04:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Adulthood is already an altered state, and when we alter it again, perhaps we are attempting to get back to the non-altered state we knew as children.

Children may take the drugs of conformity, dogma, hopelessness, and intolerance. If their consciousness is thus altered, they may choose for themselves, as adults, to swallow the blue pill or the red. Whether these pills are literal or figurative should be left up to them.

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
    #5191904 - 01/17/06 05:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

when i took drugs i took to them to feel how i used to feel when i was a child, so i don't think its necessary for children to take drugs.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5191928 - 01/17/06 05:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

NO!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5191952 - 01/17/06 05:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I was poisoned with shroom at the age of 2..

maybe not so Psychedelic, but it sure had its impact on me...

:wink:

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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5191957 - 01/17/06 05:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

It seems to me that if pre-adolescent children are around adults that use Psychedelics then they could learn much more from the counseling that such adults could give them than they ever could from the experience they would have themselves at such a young age, which in my opinion would, in all probablility, scar them.

If they were given this example of viewing life this way, at this young an age, they may never have to take psychedelics at all.


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna

Edited by schapper (01/17/06 05:25 PM)

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Gomp]
    #5192000 - 01/17/06 05:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The Obelix of mindspace? No wonder you always seem spiked and psychic.

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5192109 - 01/17/06 06:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Im not so sure I whole heartily agree on giving children mind-warping drugs, but I do think that psychedelics do have a direct correlation to kids. It's like they're spun out all the time. Always running around, laughing, having the best time in the world while we're just sitting around, being solemn. I always try to think like a kid, a child sets no boundaries of what he/she might ever accomplish, because there are no limits of what we can do - just limitations that we set for ourselves.


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010001100100001001000101!

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5192116 - 01/17/06 06:20 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Giving entheogens to children may interfere with the developmental process. Once they are 18 or so all is well for most people, but before that is risking the childs welfare. I was introduced to acid when I was 17, but I was 18 before I got "serious" about it. I turned out alright...I think.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: VirgilKane]
    #5192119 - 01/17/06 06:20 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

schapper said:
It seems to me that if pre-adolescent children are around adults that use Psychedelics then they could learn much more from the counseling that such adults could give them than they ever could from the experience they would have themselves at such a young age, which in my opinion would, in all probablility, scar them.

If they were given this example of viewing life this way, at this young an age, they may never have to take psychedelics at all.




While they may never "have" to take psychedelics, what a shame to miss that experience.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192123 - 01/17/06 06:23 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

On second thought...just put 1200mics of acid in the baby's bottle...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192131 - 01/17/06 06:25 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I turned out alright...I think.

:rofl2:

That is worth a whole other thread.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5192164 - 01/17/06 06:33 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)


While they may never "have" to take psychedelics, what a shame to miss that experience.


not necessarily, i know a few people who would give anything to take back their psychedelic experiences.

Edited by Deviate (01/17/06 06:34 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Deviate]
    #5192177 - 01/17/06 06:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

True. But in a healthy environment with proper support and a positive cultural context; I doubt that would happen often.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5192251 - 01/17/06 06:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I think, and practice, the idea of entheogenic susbtances being shared with children. The few (25) times i've done ayahuasca I've had my children beside me. My daughter has done mushrooms (about a half a gram) with a cricle of older women when she turned 7. My son is going to drink ayahuasca when he turns 7. Both of my kids were raised according to the 'Continuum Concept' (google it) and you don't separate them off as some sort of 'half finished human' type of gibberish.
They have both tasted ayahuasca. In traditional cultures there IS no age limit for imbibing substances. Alcoholic drinks are freely quaffed by mom and tot alike. Ayahuasca is the FIRST thing children in Amazonia taste, it takes priority over mother milk. The idea of 'a coming of age' is a decidedly Monotheistic idea. Once you've survived to the age of 7, in all likely hood you'll live to the age your culture tends to live to.
Neither of y children have ever been to a doctor. Their aches and pains and illness's are dealt with, with cannabis based medicines. Their only 'Health care' comes from our family Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Naturopath, both of whom have had quite a effect on our cannabis based (ie. doesn't get you high) medicinals.
If you don't entrain your children to the world view you live in, or if you are uncomfortable about the life you live...don't do it. Let 'society' train your kids. Send them to daycare (vide:public school) and hide your love of plant based experiences so that they grow up with the same guilt and shame as you feel.
What a ridiculous notion! I love my life and the way i live it. it has been hard at times, but c'est la vie! Children are not lapdogs, puppies, or any other notion you might have of them. Hell, my 5 and 10 year olds are most likely smarter than me already, they have had a good start. Nothing like when i grew up and no one taught me how to drink correctly (yes, there is a correct way), tried to make me afraid of a plant/fungus etc. those days are kaput and good riddance to them. If you wear your morality in every day life, there is no other option but to be clear with everyone you have discourse with. Your kids more so.
lancifer


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A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5192254 - 01/17/06 06:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

The potential harm from giving a youngster drugs seems to outweigh the benefits.

But, thats other peoples children.... MY KIDS however I'm hoping to raise as schizophrenic drug-fueled super-intellegent fluoro sociopaths. :syringe: Imagine a bunch of little Charles Mansons running around shouting out gibberish, its gonna be so cute.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192281 - 01/17/06 06:59 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Then if you're doing 7 grams of shrooms give your kids 7 grams.

Growing up in the 70s I got to meet some kids that took LSD when they were very  young. I don't think it did them any good by the way they were experiencing life when I met them.

Having said this. There may be conditions where it would be appropriate for children to use. But considering this culture and the way children are raised to be basically disenfranchised from themselves as is, I would still have to say NO.


And welcome to the Shroomery. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/17/06 06:59 PM)

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5192302 - 01/17/06 07:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
The potential harm from giving a youngster drugs seems to outweigh the benefits.




I think people get caught up in simple statements or platitudes. The very word 'drug' conjures up some mad chemist boiling ever increasingly lethal doses of pesticides!
Give kids LSD...nope!
Give kids PCP...nope!
Let them eat a mushroom stem on an important date in their lives with sane adults around...yep!
Let them always drink ayahuasca if they can gag it down...yep!
Soothe a scrape with comfrey and cannabis salve...yep!
Ease the flu with a mild cannabis soup...yep!
There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.
lancifer


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A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5192313 - 01/17/06 07:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Then if you're doing 7 grams of shrooms give your kids 7 grams.





I very much doubt any child has the will to choke down 7 grams! I'm saving 'heroic' dosing for when my son turns 13 and my daughter gets her first 'flow'...but thats her mothers decision. Thanx for the welcome!
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192326 - 01/17/06 07:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"The idea of 'a coming of age' is a decidedly Monotheistic idea. Once you've survived to the age of 7, in all likely hood you'll live to the age your culture tends to live to."

That is absolutely wrong. Coming of age in most traditional societies is from 14 to 18. It is NOT a monotheistic idea.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192331 - 01/17/06 07:10 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.

But some plants contain drugs.

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5192337 - 01/17/06 07:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I heard a story once.. (or, at least I think so..)

about this race of people.

they knew the number for everything.. (all, by the appropriate numerical code..)

so by using the numbers, they could trip out and stuff, just like we can using the shrooms..


anyways, they thought one day, "what if we teacher a child all there is to know?" like from the very beginning.. just teach all there is to know, to embodied all the numerical codes, so to be capable of anything... not having to learn and experiment for itself..

well, they did so, and the child, at the age of 11, just disappeared, ..

it is said that the child is t?here, laughing it out, still, this very day..

lol..

I am not sure if I told it or lost it or what.. so .. The End!

Edited by Gomp (01/17/06 07:19 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192340 - 01/17/06 07:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Their only 'Health care' comes from our family Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Naturopath, both of whom have had quite a effect on our cannabis based (ie. doesn't get you high) medicinals."

What are you going to do if they get a burst appendix or need an organ transplant? Traditional medicine has value, but to totally eschew modern medicine is irresponsible even for one that follows a shamanic path.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleMetasyn
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192351 - 01/17/06 07:16 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for your post Iancifer. 

When you give your children mushrooms or ayahuasca, what do you tell them about it?  Do you preface it as being a spiritual communion of sorts or do you let them learn about it themselves or what?  How does it effect them?  Are they "tripping" in the same sense that an adult would be?  More info please, I'm really curious! :smile:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192372 - 01/17/06 07:22 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Give kids LSD...nope!"

LSD and shrooms and aya are all physically harmless. Classifying one as harmful because it is synthetic is ridiculous. The action of all three substances is, while not identical, very similar. There is no logic in this rationalization.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192387 - 01/17/06 07:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Lancifer, is that your tattoo?
If it is: Awesome!

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192393 - 01/17/06 07:28 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Let them eat a mushroom stem on an important date in their lives with sane adults around...yep!"

There may be some value in that approach, but any adult whose idea of complete medical care is cannabis based medicines and traditional Chinese medicine is not sane.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192403 - 01/17/06 07:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

maybe a paren't job is to nurture and to demonstrate a source of dignity interest and vitality.

I think the church and schools often undermine the family by taking over that role; but they can support the family and encourage that role.

If this forum were your church and I were momentarily at the pulpit I would say to be dignified in front of your children, to judge for yourself if that includes being out in the open about drugs in any particular way.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192410 - 01/17/06 07:33 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"The idea of 'a coming of age' is a decidedly Monotheistic idea. Once you've survived to the age of 7, in all likely hood you'll live to the age your culture tends to live to."

That is absolutely wrong. Coming of age in most traditional societies is from 14 to 18. It is NOT a monotheistic idea.




In MOST plant based cultures, 7 is the age when the boy goes off with his uncle and the shaman to find his 'totem'. 7 is the cut off point for most childhood related deaths. Hence 7 is when children become 'human'. It is about the age of 7 that most children are capable of doing basic gardening tasks unaided.
I'm not making this up off of the top of my head. Fer heaven's sake, I am learning it from my peers. I've discussed this with many people who have spent along time in Amazonian cultures as well as the cultures which still exost where i live. 7 is the 'becoming human' for the Coast Salish peoples including the Haida and their kin. My daughter's 'becoming human' ritual was attended by 2 female elders from the Coast Salish. Who, incidently have a tradtional use for mushrooms. I am working with the Haida via one of my ex's on the medicinal properties of rare polyphores.
The whole idea of 'childhood and teenagerhood' is an invention of marketers from the 40's on. Do your research! And don't confuse 'adulthood' ceremonies with 'becoming human' ceremonies. they are distinct.
If you want a list of folk whom I have corresponded with or have as friends who've researched this...pm me. I have quite a cornucopia of friends in the psychedelic community via my medpot battles with my government.
lancifer


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A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192414 - 01/17/06 07:34 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Their only 'Health care' comes from our family Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and Naturopath, both of whom have had quite a effect on our cannabis based (ie. doesn't get you high) medicinals."

What are you going to do if they get a burst appendix or need an organ transplant? Traditional medicine has value, but to totally eschew modern medicine is irresponsible even for one that follows a shamanic path.




If they have a burst appendix, I'll take them to the hospital...duh!?
lancifer


--------------------
A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde

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Offlinelancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5192427 - 01/17/06 07:38 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Metasyn said:
Thanks for your post Iancifer. 

When you give your children mushrooms or ayahuasca, what do you tell them about it?  Do you preface it as being a spiritual communion of sorts or do you let them learn about it themselves or what?  How does it effect them?  Are they "tripping" in the same sense that an adult would be?  More info please, I'm really curious! :smile:




I was not present for my daughters ritual, so i don't know and don't ask...it was a woman thing.  My son puked after two finger tips of ayahuasca then snored all the way through the ceremony.  It was quite a melodious snore though!  There is a researcher (two actually) doing research on this subject.  They are going to various 'psychedelic' communities and querying this very thing.  it should be interesting to see what they come up with.  Its quite a touchy subject as you can probably see from this thread.
lancifer


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192438 - 01/17/06 07:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Yes lancifer I am also interested in the context of your children's psychedelic experiences (how much info you give them about the substance, what to expect, etc.)
At first I admit to being a little thrown off by your practices, but alot of what you say makes sense. If I am in my room and have a bad trip, who better to seek comfort/counsel from than the parents who love me? (Of course, mine would just have me committed to a mental institution). The cannabis medicine also seems very effective for treating minor ailments and more importantly, showing your kids from an early age that drugs can be used in a healthy, responsible, moderate way instead of telling them "JUST SAY NO!!"
Tell us more about your family's lifestyle, it would be interesting to hear more from somebody who has experienced this topic firsthand.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5192440 - 01/17/06 07:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

True. :thumbup:  I wasn't very clear on that.

I meant that, for me anyway, I didn't turn to tripping to "trip", I did it to change my perspective on what had become a fucked up view of the World.  I needed to break free from my hypnosis.

If those kids grew up around people who were free from that, then they could have a truly great experience without having or needing too.  Like I did.


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
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"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192443 - 01/17/06 07:40 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Give kids LSD...nope!"

LSD and shrooms and aya are all physically harmless. Classifying one as harmful because it is synthetic is ridiculous. The action of all three substances is, while not identical, very similar. There is no logic in this rationalization. [/quote

If its a plant, I can judge the potency. If you have a vial of LSD or a blotter the dosage can change from drop to drop or blotter to blotter. its a simple mathematical certainty that various partitions of such a dose related substance as LSD is not as precise as say...a cup of fungal tea or a standard shot of ayahuasca.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5192450 - 01/17/06 07:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Lancifer, is that your tattoo?
If it is: Awesome!




Yep! Done while luke brown (www.spectraleyes.com) was still in the tattoo biz!
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192455 - 01/17/06 07:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Let them eat a mushroom stem on an important date in their lives with sane adults around...yep!"

There may be some value in that approach, but any adult whose idea of complete medical care is cannabis based medicines and traditional Chinese medicine is not sane.




Well call me insane then. My DTM cured himself of cancer. More than i can say for most Dr.s of anything. Becuase i don't buy into the medical mafia I'm insane...very well then, hencforth i shall be lancifer the insane. RU for real?
lancifer (the insane)


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5192482 - 01/17/06 07:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
maybe a paren't job is to nurture and to demonstrate a source of dignity interest and vitality.

I think the church and schools often undermine the family by taking over that role; but they can support the family and encourage that role.

If this forum were your church and I were momentarily at the pulpit I would say to be dignified in front of your children, to judge for yourself if that includes being out in the open about drugs in any particular way.




That's why we have shunned doing ayahuasca without our ayahuascero and don't really do all that many drugs anyhow. Its a problem for kids IF you are a 'pothead'...godsawful parenting skills in most of those...or do anything on a regular basis. heck, i was a 1,4-butanediol junkie for 4 years and still managed to raise fine kids, run a Permaculture center and the like. I share a beer with my son if he says he wants some. But i'm not a drunk, I simply like a feer beers or a glass of wine with friends.
My kids don't have bedtimes, they stay up until they decide to either crash on a lap or go to bed. its all about gauging your children. There are, for the most part NO other kids i'd give ayahuasca or shrooms to. But I'm raising my kids in a different reality when it comes down to it. I know most of the grandpappies of psychedelia and they've been taken aback at having me show up at 4 hour long lectures with a kid who knows when to be quiet and sits and listens!
If we don't start to change the way we raise kids...we are screwed. I read some of the points posted by others and i wonder if they have kids and then think they probably do, or they wouldn't bother pontificating on the subject, but they are afraid to raise kids how they really want to. There is a lot of fear. But I got over my fear fighting my federal government for the right to grow medpot. "fear is failure and the forerunner of failure" (A.Crowley)
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192492 - 01/17/06 07:58 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"If its a plant, I can judge the potency. If you have a vial of LSD or a blotter the dosage can change from drop to drop or blotter to blotter. its a simple mathematical certainty that various partitions of such a dose related substance as LSD is not as precise as say...a cup of fungal tea or a standard shot of ayahuasca."

I have extensive experience with shrooms, aya, and LSD...over 24 years worth. It is well known that plants vary greatly in potency from plant to plant. Many factors can affect plant substance potency. LSD can be precisely measured to exacting scientific standards...plants cannot. I do realize that in many cases plants can be safer because they are more dilute, but in the case of LSD this is immaterial due to the fact that it has no harmful PHYSICAL side effects, and it can be finely measured.

"If they have a burst appendix, I'll take them to the hospital...duh!?"

Yes, but you said their ONLY medical care was traditional Chinese medicine. To dismiss my answer in this fashion is to abandon responsibility for your earlier statement. You should have qualified that in the earlier statement.

"RU for real?"

Last time I checked I was.

What I am criticizing is the holes in your nature boy philosophy. Without consistency your approach would not appear well thought out.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: CUBErt]
    #5192516 - 01/17/06 08:03 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CUBErt said:
Yes lancifer I am also interested in the context of your children's psychedelic experiences (how much info you give them about the substance, what to expect, etc.)
At first I admit to being a little thrown off by your practices, but alot of what you say makes sense. If I am in my room and have a bad trip, who better to seek comfort/counsel from than the parents who love me? (Of course, mine would just have me committed to a mental institution). The cannabis medicine also seems very effective for treating minor ailments and more importantly, showing your kids from an early age that drugs can be used in a healthy, responsible, moderate way instead of telling them "JUST SAY NO!!"
Tell us more about your family's lifestyle, it would be interesting to hear more from somebody who has experienced this topic firsthand. [/quote

I can't say much about my daughters becoming 7 ritual. I wasn't there and it took place high up a mountain with about 15 older women and her mom. But it was done with respect, clarity and knowing the women...a whole hell of a lot of beauty. They don't 'play' at ritual.
My son's experience with two finertips of aya was a gag, a puke then much snoring. But we have a dedicated ayahuascero who comes over from Holland several times a year to drink the brew with around about 13-20 of us. We've done this many a time (with him...15?) and he creates quite a wondrous ritual space.
My kids grew up in a yurt, with a cooking trailer beside it. I grew all sorts of 'poisonous' plants and they both know not to eat anything unless they ask or take the time to learn. The yurt was surrounded by about 1.3 acres of a permaculture garden. Food was and is there medicine, at one point we grew 65% of our own food as a test to see what it was like.
They are both young and budding 'plant people'. There is always a sense of the sacred when you drink the brew in your own garden. Surrounded by loving friends and good vibes. Heck, my son once looked aghast at a fellow who literally shit himself (he was a guest) and then smeared his face with his faeces before jumping in the fire. My son kept looking up at me as we all watched...and he kept a straight face because thats what we were all doing.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5192539 - 01/17/06 08:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"If its a plant, I can judge the potency. If you have a vial of LSD or a blotter the dosage can change from drop to drop or blotter to blotter. its a simple mathematical certainty that various partitions of such a dose related substance as LSD is not as precise as say...a cup of fungal tea or a standard shot of ayahuasca."

I have extensive experience with shrooms, aya, and LSD...over 24 years worth. It is well known that plants vary greatly in potency from plant to plant. Many factors can affect plant substance potency. LSD can be precisely measured to exacting scientific standards...plants cannot. I do realize that in many cases plants can be safer because they are more dilute, but in the case of LSD this is immaterial due to the fact that it has no harmful PHYSICAL side effects, and it can be finely measured.

"If they have a burst appendix, I'll take them to the hospital...duh!?"

Yes, but you said their ONLY medical care was traditional Chinese medicine. To dismiss my answer in this fashion is to abandon responsibility for your earlier statement. You should have qualified that in the earlier statement.

"RU for real?"

Last time I checked I was.

What I am criticizing is the holes in your nature boy philosophy. Without consistency your approach would not appear well thought out. [/quote

Then we both have about 24 years of experience.
I said...my children have never been to a doctor. Plain and simple, YOU read into it what you like. "Nature boy" I suppose being a permaculture Design Consultant, Nurseryman and Medpot grower i suppose it fits.
As per the tea. I'd be taking the same amount. Which I believe was quite clear when i contextualized the LSD as being variant per dose. its simply a matter of how the sheets dry (for blotter), encrustations of crystal around the edge of the vial (for liquid) etc. Sure you can get all finnicky with the LSD but why bother when there are two better options...already discussed.
My son's godfather was in jail for running a 'supposed' lsd lab with Nick Sand in Vancouver in the late 90's. He got out of jail and there was a get out of jail party where the host mismeasured the dosage. It was messy. Its hard to eat too many mushrooms, its not as if they are the tasties things (dried anyhow) and ayahuasca is downright horrid IMO. But then again, I shat out a rather large tapeworm on it so i am a bit biased.
lancifer


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OfflineCUBErt
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5192581 - 01/17/06 08:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Alot of interesting info lancifer, just FYI you gotta do

[ quote ] then the quotation, then [ / quote ] <--- without spaces between the brackets and /

Be sure to check it out in the post preview (its just been sorta confusing to tell where certain posts end and yours begin)


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: CUBErt]
    #5192675 - 01/17/06 08:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

*without reading 5 pages of posts*

I really think that it's unneccessary to give a child an ego-destroying substance because they have not had a chance to even solidify their ego/worldview. It isn't until adolescence when we start to narrow our mind and loose the connection with God that seems so inherent in childhood.

I think that nothing good would come from giving psychedelics to someone who hasn't even hit puberty yet. More like than not it would cause severe trauma! I think that a comming of age ritual involving psychedelics would be completely appropriate though.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: dr0mni]
    #5192763 - 01/17/06 09:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

*after reading 5 pages of posts*

That's really fascinating that you have introduced your kids to these substances so young! But as you said, it takes on a completely different nature in a different cultural context. If you are raising your kid to live in urban society, then attitudes are of course going to be different than if you raised them in a "grassroots" type of culture...

I don't think that raising your kids in an urban society and teaching them about psychedelics from a young age is a good idea though. I don't think it is fair to indoctrinate a child into a drug-culture, making them possible victims of federal drug laws. If one were to drop out of urban life and live a more nature-based lifestyle then I think that it could be beneficial for the child.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: dr0mni]
    #5193065 - 01/17/06 10:03 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think most kids, or more correctly, their parents...are solid enough to imbibe aya or shrooms. But then again, alot of the semi-adults (we seem to be stretching childhood into the late 20's nowadays) I see taking substances should not IMO be taking anything. They are simply playing. As kids are apt to do.
I do know of three instances where children ate (2, 4 and 6) chocolate covered mushrooms and in all instances their parents simply ate another and went to the woods to play. In all these instances it worked out well.
I'm not a happy camper about the state of our world and western 'culture' in particular. In areas where ayahuasca is endemic the children drink it as well. Children in Peyote culture eat and hunt peyote as well. I have a childs beaded peyote bowl gifted to me by a Huichol Indian. I feel like we are on the verge of something new and the medical benefits alone (anti-parasite in particular) of ayahuasca would be enough for me to allow MY kids, not anyone elses...to have a sip when the parents do.
I'm not really much of an inebriant imbiber as I age, I'm 37, and mellowing. So my use of substances tends more towards the 'seeking to discover' rather than 'seeking to escape'. It is simply not an everyday or even every month thing. When I dose (5-7 grams) I don't want anyone around. But there are times and places, pertinent times and special places, where my children can share.
I also don't buy the 'drug war' crap and have already had it out with Child and Family Services about our quite legal medpot grow. My children think marijuana is medicine for sick people and I prefer it that way...all the herbs are for healing.
At least they know they are loved and a part of their parents life, there are NO secrets. there is a grasp at clarity and if that freaks some people out so-be-it. At least we are trying instead of offering platitudes and propaganda. They don't go to public skool either.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: dr0mni]
    #5193077 - 01/17/06 10:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think it is fair to indoctrinate a child into a drug-culture, making them possible victims of federal drug laws.





Neither ayahuasca, mushrooms or 'carded' medical marijuana is illegal in Canada. Nor for that matter is peyote.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5193433 - 01/17/06 11:48 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

oh, see I thought you were in the US. for a second... yeah I see where you're comming from now

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5193653 - 01/18/06 12:39 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lancifer said:
There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.





Are you one of those 'natural only' people? The side effects (or lack of) psiloc[yb]in and LSD are virtually one and the same.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Fospher]
    #5194041 - 01/18/06 04:32 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

lancifer,
working with kids is not about you; and raising kids
is not about changing society or doing something the way you want to, it is about nuturing them for their sakes and setting useful examples for them to make use of.
It is about giving.

I get the impression that you are waging a personal battle and your kids may be a part of that battle field.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194258 - 01/18/06 07:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"twas ever thus"


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194439 - 01/18/06 09:56 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"raising kids is not about changing society"

I do not condone lancifer's methods as small children lack the development to make use of an entheogenic experience, and teaching them to use drugs recreationally at that age does not instill in them the seriousness of the act.

However, it is true that when you raise a child you do, in fact, change society whether you are trying to or not. That individual will interact with society and bring about change whether you forsee it or not. If you raise a psychopath it may result in the deaths of many more humans which could cause a change in the legal system and our social structure. If you raise a great scientist or humanitarian they may revolutionize our society in more positive ways. When you set out as a parent you have that power...to create an individual that has no value to the species, or to create an individual that causes change for the better. While milage varies and not all results are guaranteed, you can instill a tendancy towards positive or negative actions if you try as a parent. So, knowing this, should we not be socially responsible when raising our kids, just as we are socially responsible in conducting our own behavior? When someone neglects to teach proper values to their children they do no one any favors...including the child.

That said, I personally think lancifer is being socially irresponsible, and I fear that when his children come to understand the reality of our society they will feel ripped off or angry in a non-productive way.


--------------------
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5194463 - 01/18/06 10:09 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

proper values?
hmmm
like at church?
like at school?
like your parents?
like your buddies?

It is important to teach some core values by example:
IMO those include being human and respecting one another; in short, that's dignity and compassion.
Much of the rest depends on your interests, this is something each person has to discover for themselves.
If you can help the child do that, great, otherwise you have to get out of the way.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5194464 - 01/18/06 10:11 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Well - if my two cents count...I try to get the boys to stay away from THC until they are at least 11, and mushrooms until they are 13 (...age of accountability..) but mine get a lot of devotion and time. I try to raise mine to be doctors (heh-heh) and then allow, accept and support their own path choices because the young change their minds a great deal and also - at least the kids I've known and raised....Just say no, and they most assuredly will! :smile: They will also think you false and shi**y too...You can't fool kids!
I know some of the older boys have gotten the younger boys stoned at times, and I myself have laughed inside at <<a gag, a puke then much snoring.>> and pretended I did not know.
I love the boys more than the stunts they sometimes pull, boys will be boys and I am most afraid of being alienated from the kids, and thereby losing all hope...
I don't impose anything on any of mine, and mostly, considering their own curiosity and the U.S. environment today - I don't have to! I spend most of my time trying to help them interpret and discern all the crap that is thrown at them so they will develop good judgement skills.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: curenado]
    #5194475 - 01/18/06 10:16 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

<<and the medical benefits alone (anti-parasite in particular) of ayahuasca >>

Lancifer! :smile: Another time someone pointed something obvious out to me that I have to go "Duh! That makes perfect sense!"


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194485 - 01/18/06 10:20 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

this is something each person has to discover for themselves




Yes, I agree.  Demonstrating your values to your children is a powerful way to teach.  Shoving these values down their throats too often has the opposite effect, as their spiritual "gag reflex" is triggered. :grin:

However, I believe that encouraging/teaching/supporting my children in being excellent questioners is the best way for me to enable their spirituality.  Children are naturally curious, but the delicate sprout of investigation can be crushed by rough hands.  I allow this sprout to grow, give it plenty of sunlight (encouragement) and water (exposure to information), and step around it carefully when I'm walking through their lives.  :heart:

Raising critical thinkers is tricky business, as the bright light of investigation will inevitably be directed at YOU, too!  I do my inner work & apologize for my mistakes along the way.  My kids get to see my failings and my strivings, along with my triumphs and strengths.  I believe that this is more balanced than the guarded Parent status many of my peers struggle to maintain.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5194566 - 01/18/06 10:57 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I do not condone lancifer's methods as small children lack the development to make use of an entheogenic experience




What kind of development is necessary for one to make use of an entheogenic experience? Also, what kind of use is one to strive to make from an entheogenic experience?

I do not see how it necessarily follows that use of entheogens by children, in itself, is detrimental to their growth. If an experience of swinging on a swing on a warm, sunny day with one's loving parents encouraging the playful experience is beneficial to a child, I do not comprehend how the same experience while the child is slightly altered with an entheogen that heightens one's senses is suddenly detrimental. :confused:

I think that looking at entheogenic usage through the perspective of a great need to reap some proper, serious, elitist use of it clouds one's perceptions of what isn't that much of a big deal. :grin: As is with all psychadelic use, as long as set and setting are in order, then what is the fucking problem? Outline this for me.

Quote:


, and teaching them to use drugs recreationally at that age does not instill in them the seriousness of the act.





Is that so? And why is that? How do we begin to teach responsibility to children anyways? What's the difference between this and any other responsibility that might be taught? Since when has tripping been a serious endeavor? :smirk:

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5194593 - 01/18/06 11:03 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

These are good questions. The fact that I understand so little about how a childs brain and emotional growth develops gives me pause in the use of psychedelics with children. It's pretty much that simple for me. I would err on the side of safety, as the experience is waiting for them down the road a bit. I'm not very sure that primitive cultures tripped out small children. The fact that young children were given a drop or two of a psychedelic plant may have been more symbolic than an actual psychedelic experience for the child.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5194616 - 01/18/06 11:08 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

let us put it in terms of complexity.
the full gamut of social interaction already happens in the schoolyard.
finding one's way through that is plenty difficult, but children do have appropriate resources to handle it - why give them a looking glass world too?
with toys one can learn plenty, privately and through sharing and even team play.
In travelling they go with parents, not alone.
psychedelics are not only like travelling in the looking glass world but they add extra complexity to the simple things, for us it introduces the freshness of dreams and nightmares, for children they are always merely moments from that already, and it is not really a toy for them to enjoy and share, but strong medicine which I think is for private journeys.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194712 - 01/18/06 11:35 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Personally, I think that in the proper culture it is perfectly fine and potentially beneficial to expose children to psychedelic experiences. However, in a mainstream, MTV, public school, etc culture that so many exist in, it would be a serious detriment to the child's ability to interact with that culture. Children, unlike adolescents, aren't in the position to step outside of their cultural framework and inspect it from the outside.. chances are they'd just get beat up in the schoolyard or something. Psychedelic experiences need context and meaning at such a young age, and I think that if given in the way the Iancifer is talking about, it can be a beautiful thing.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Fospher]
    #5194913 - 01/18/06 12:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

lancifer said:
There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.





Are you one of those 'natural only' people? The side effects (or lack of) psiloc[yb]in and LSD are virtually one and the same.




What? Psylocybin has a 4-6 hour effect. LSD always seems to last 12 hours for me. I'm not an 'all natural' fellow, enjoying ketamine on occassion, cocaine on occassion, GHB on occassion etc. When I can get it I love 2CB! I never get a 'hangover' from mushrooms.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5194916 - 01/18/06 12:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Metasyn said:
owever, in a mainstream, MTV, public school, etc culture that so many exist in, it would be a serious detriment to the child's ability to interact with that culture.




How so? I do not see how a psychadelic experience would not be congruent with an ability to interact within the culture that one is present.

A child learns to behave in different manners in different situations. They learn the difference between how to behave in school and in one's room with all of their toys, between dinner at a restaurant and of munching popcorn with a friend. Different actions are only appropriate at certain times, and children learn to discern the difference and act accordingly.

I do not see why, during these formative years, it would not be beneficial to also learn to develop insightful, spiritual behavior. In an individual who is beginning to develop social roles and relationships with the world in which they interact that will quite possibly obstruct their ability to center themselves in their state of being and to be aware of their consciousness, it would seem necessary to have experiences that will ensure they never lose that connection with a state beyond their illusory sense of self that their mind is currently forming.

Entheogens assist such experiences, and proper set and setting, complete with loving, understanding parents, would ensure that the experience is within the proper context and that the child would take responsibility for the experience and would also that they would continue to interact in different situations as they should.

It is plainly obvious to everyone here that society is not properly raising children into mature, individual human beings with positive, engaged outlooks and a higher path for them to walk. Ever wonder why that is?

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194925 - 01/18/06 12:54 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
lancifer,
working with kids is not about you; and raising kids
is not about changing society or doing something the way you want to, it is about nuturing them for their sakes and setting useful examples for them to make use of.
It is about giving.

I get the impression that you are waging a personal battle and your kids may be a part of that battle field.




So, by accompanying their parents during a night of ayahuasca journeying I'm somehow 'imperiling them for life or something'? Tell that to all the Amazonian tribes, the Rastafarians, the Coptic Christians etc. I'm not 'battling' anyone or anything anymore. though i do plan on taking mushrooms through the canadian courts (with damn good lawyers).
A useful example is real people having real healing journeys. Not 'your somehow irrelevant because your small'. I have well adjusted kids, and we get comments on their fine behaviour all the time. To say that drinking aya is somehow 'sinful'...well I just don't buy it.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5194933 - 01/18/06 12:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"raising kids is not about changing society"

I do not condone lancifer's methods as small children lack the development to make use of an entheogenic experience, and teaching them to use drugs recreationally at that age does not instill in them the seriousness of the act.








Recreationally? Where did i mention that or are you simply throwing it out as a red herring? Recreationally does not normally span spending a night in the woods with a bunch of potent women, or drinking aya in ceremenony with a respected ayahuascero.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194938 - 01/18/06 01:00 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
proper values?
hmmm
like at church?
like at school?
like your parents?
like your buddies?

It is important to teach some core values by example:
IMO those include being human and respecting one another; in short, that's dignity and compassion.
Much of the rest depends on your interests, this is something each person has to discover for themselves.
If you can help the child do that, great, otherwise you have to get out of the way.




No doubt! In other words...leave it up to someone else.
I am blessed by living in a very psychedelic community. My son has been to more outdoor 'dawn sets' in many a wondrous space than I have!
In the 'Continuum Concept' you take your kids with you wherever you go. How are they to learn to do things in a sane manner if they are left behind?
I've seemingly opened a can of worms here!
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5194954 - 01/18/06 01:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

so you actually admit that you are waging a personal battle in the courts, and using your children as a first line of defense.

You might ask aya how that is putting them first as opposed to putting them in the line of fire first.

Anyway I never said aya is evil.

Also the social matrix of an Amazon indian tribe is fundamentally different than BC, Canada. --- the option remains for you to emigrate.
But ask you kids first what they want. they may not want to go.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5194979 - 01/18/06 01:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
and using your children as a first line of defense.




Where the hell do you get this from? :confused:

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5194985 - 01/18/06 01:17 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
is plainly obvious to everyone here that society is not properly raising children into mature, individual human beings with positive, engaged outlooks and a higher path for them to walk. Ever wonder why that is?





Good point. Something needs to change, and I applaud people for pushing the boundaries of what's known to work. Sure it might fail but what we're used to doing is a failure as well.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5194997 - 01/18/06 01:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

if he goes to court with the story as it has been put here, then the kids will be on the stand, and probably in the newspaper too.
thus they will be in the line of fire in lancifer's private war.
is that nice?


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5195116 - 01/18/06 01:51 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Metasyn said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
is plainly obvious to everyone here that society is not properly raising children into mature, individual human beings with positive, engaged outlooks and a higher path for them to walk. Ever wonder why that is?





Good point. Something needs to change, and I applaud people for pushing the boundaries of what's known to work. Sure it might fail but what we're used to doing is a failure as well.




These are good points. I really can't respond to them in the negative because I don't know. And of course everything needs to find expression in Tao. So maybe?


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195158 - 01/18/06 02:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"How are they to learn to do things in a sane manner if they are left behind?"

-Sane? I would think 'sane' closer to NOT tripping.

I was touring this summer and I came across a cute chick with her small infant. Both live in an Arkansas commune and make hemp shoes for a living. Well, this chick is a more extreme lancifer and fed her baby fungus in it's baby-food. I had to listen to this infant cry ALL night. If I wasn't the nice guy I am, I would have punched that bitch in the ovaries.

I view psychedelics as drugs that play with what you already got (mentally). The child's brain is underdeveloped and trying to make sense of the world it's subjected to. There's not a whole lot of life expereince for a tripping shift to be held insightful or even fun. I'm sure it's little more than confusing.

A wise man once called his son to a meeting. "I have traveled and experienced much in my life." He tells his son, "I've made many mistakes and have learned from them. Now, before you go off to experience the world I will tell you all I know in hopes you won't make the same mistakes." The old man then relates his life story to his son...... To make a long story short: The son listens but still ends up making the same mistakes in a slightly different manner. Life can't be taught by another, it must be experienced.

If you're 7yr old want's to try psychedelics on his own accord, I can understand that I suppose. I'm not dissing your parenting skills, but I would imagine a suburbanite fits into society a little bit better than kids from Amazonian tribes.

Although I love drugs, I sure am glad I was born into a normal family. My parents were old deadheads, but thankfuly they kept their business out of sight and out of my mind. I'm not growing up to be the next president, but I love who I am. I got some flushes otw that I plan to share with my folks.

It's your kids, do what you want. The world needs all kinds of people. But hit us up in a few years to let us know if they turned out to be insurance salesmen or something worst.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195187 - 01/18/06 02:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
if he goes to court with the story as it has been put here, then the kids will be on the stand, and probably in the newspaper too.
thus they will be in the line of fire in lancifer's private war.
is that nice?




I'm going to question your entire basis in reality as it has been presented to be understood in this thread. I believe he simply stated "I'm not 'battling' anyone or anything anymore. though i do plan on taking mushrooms through the canadian courts (with damn good lawyers)."

I do not understand why you are under the impression that he is presenting the "story" he has presented here. I am assuming that he was implying that he was going to attempt to change the legal status of using mushrooms in Canada? What does that have to do with his "story" here? Why are you assuming that he is involving his children?

I think you are jumping to bizarre conclusions here. *waves hands in front of your eyes to check your focus*. :grin:

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If I should die this very moment
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5195196 - 01/18/06 02:12 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lancifer said:
Are you one of those 'natural only' people? The side effects (or lack of) psiloc[yb]in and LSD are virtually one and the same.

What? Psylocybin has a 4-6 hour effect. LSD always seems to last 12 hours for me. I'm not an 'all natural' fellow, enjoying ketamine on occassion, cocaine on occassion, GHB on occassion etc. When I can get it I love 2CB! I never get a 'hangover' from mushrooms.




And you get a hangover from LSD? According to Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_effects.shtml), and from my and the experiences of all my acquaintaces, you appear to be one of the only one that does. But Im not talking about you, either.

Quote:


Give kids LSD...nope!
Let them eat a mushroom stem on an important date in their lives with sane adults around...yep!




We're talking about giving kids these drugs, not your own experiences, remember? How is giving a kid a hit of some low grade different from giving from giving him/her a low dose of mushrooms?

Quote:


There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.




These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5195304 - 01/18/06 02:56 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

glad you asked about the whole reality thing - no answer but glad you asked.
and very pleased to see you waving the hand around in front of figurative eyes.
the conceptual link is figurative in both cases - thecourt-politics-children and the fingers-eyes-reality.

personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.

I like to keep some things separate.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195343 - 01/18/06 03:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.




You prefer to keep them isolated from the world? :confused:

Quote:


I like to keep some things separate.




Thus, keeping them and their minds more seperated from reality.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5195391 - 01/18/06 03:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.




You prefer to keep them isolated from the world? :confused:




This is not an either/or proposition.  Tsk-tsk! Logical fallacy.


Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I like to keep some things separate.




Thus, keeping them and their minds more seperated from reality.





This is your opinion, not a fact.  Excluding your children, or anyone else, from some activities in your life does not necessarily limit their grasp on reality. :rolleyes:

I am excluding billions of people from my life experience--are their minds more separated from reality due to this exclusion?

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195524 - 01/18/06 04:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
so you actually admit that you are waging a personal battle in the courts, and using your children as a first line of defense.

You might ask aya how that is putting them first as opposed to putting them in the line of fire first.

Anyway I never said aya is evil.

Also the social matrix of an Amazon indian tribe is fundamentally different than BC, Canada. --- the option remains for you to emigrate.
But ask you kids first what they want. they may not want to go.




So by at least trying to change the cultural matrix of where you live by (thus far) offering...and that is a key word here...2 fingertips full of aya (which still made him puke) to my son I'm somehow 'wrecking' him for a decent position in the social ladder? I must be missing your point?
If you have ever tried to get a child to eat something as unpalatable as aya you'd know that they must make the choice. The fingers were offered the next night and declined. But we discussed it afterwords and he's willing to try again later.
As for my daughter, (see above about taste!) she could have simply nibbled the fungi, or supped the tea. You can't force a child to imbibe wreched tasting substances. These were NOT 'honey coated' offerings on a whim.
And as for going through the court system again, I do believe I said 'at a later date'. I intend on setting up a booth on Commercial Drive in Vancouver, asking for I.D. (over 18's) and selling the product I made for 4.5 years "Scooby Snacks". Since they contain cubensis I expect to get arrested and there is a research lawyer who's agreed to take on my case gratis. I don't think I'll take my kid to the park that day.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5195541 - 01/18/06 04:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Redgreenvines...are you a parent or are you simply shooting from the hip?
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5195558 - 01/18/06 04:34 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I am horrified that you are attempting to do this to your son.
as you explain it graphically here, I hope that people can see what he is facing in his life.

let the child grow and play with children without these extra issues.

there is plenty of time later for issues.
- a little sweet wine is one thing - this powerful medicine is a different type of thing altogether.
with your attempts to join another culture you are becoming his future baggage.
and you are asking us to support that.
If discovered, you could be charged with child molestation and the kid could be separated to a "safe" environment until old enough to contend with you as an equal.

let your quest be your quest. you need no converts to prove your faith least of all you own defenseless children.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5195596 - 01/18/06 04:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.




You prefer to keep them isolated from the world? :confused:





you can vote one vote
you can protest one protest
you should not make a defenseless juvenile fight your cause
public opposition is a force that can be resisted - so the juvenile exposed to this may be inadvertently harmed
this is akin to political abduction or hostage taking before they can vote.

if explaining the issues is not enough to inform them they are not ready to be put on the line to fight or represent causes.

children are here at the beginning of their own paths they are not here to continue your path or to carry your torch.

you should back off on that, for their good, nothing about me, and it should be nothing about you.

I would say that this also has to do with sex (who where when), drugs(who where when), religion, profession, politics as well as taste in clothing art and music etc.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195979 - 01/18/06 06:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

There have been a lot of good posts in this thread!

I think that we can all agree that it depends entirely upon social context! If a kid grows up in a culture that regards psych's as sacred then they would certainly be able to incorperate their early psychedelic experiences with their functioning adulthood.

If however the child is taught that psych's are sacred by their parents, but then teachers, police, and gov't tell them that they are illegal and that people go to jail for them, then it seriously changes the way that those early experiences are going to be viewed!

I think that if a child is going to be given psych's they could be given CHILD SIZE DOSES or simply a very small symbolic dose or anointment. To feed newborns or toddlers full sized doses I think is irresponsible. You don't but a 6 year old on a motorcylce before they have mastered their training wheels.

Just like a childs' physical abilities develop in stages, so do their mentalities. And the "Set/setting" includes this "inner" set/setting

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5195980 - 01/18/06 06:05 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Mod edit: no flaming, please read the rules before you post!


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Edited by Annom (01/19/06 01:41 AM)

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Fospher]
    #5196000 - 01/18/06 06:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

And you get a hangover from LSD? According to Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_effects.shtml), and from my and the experiences of all my acquaintaces, you appear to be one of the only one that does. But Im not talking about you, either.


There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.




These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?




Anyone can grow a plant or fungus. My children have their own gardens. But the knowledge of how to synthesize LSD is rather specialized. It is also not a traditional entheogen, having been used for the last 60 years or so. The Morphogenetic filed of LSD is not as deeply based as plant entheogens.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196007 - 01/18/06 06:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The rules for posting in this forum are simple and few:

1) No flaming. If you can't state your case or refute someone else's case without calling him/her "stupid" or an "idiot" don't bother posting here. This forum is for intelligent discussion, not for belittling someone who holds differing opinions. This rule will be strictly enforced. If you have been warned already you will receive a temporary ban, if you continue to flame you will be banned permanently. Choose your words wisely or suffer the consequences.





BTW, there is an "Ignore User" feature. It would be wise to use it, rather than resorting to insulting other users when they disapprove of your POV and actions.

Edited by Veritas (01/19/06 12:12 PM)

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: dr0mni]
    #5196047 - 01/18/06 06:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

dr0mni said:
There have been a lot of good posts in this thread!

I think that we can all agree that it depends entirely upon social context! If a kid grows up in a culture that regards psych's as sacred then they would certainly be able to incorperate their early psychedelic experiences with their functioning adulthood.

If however the child is taught that psych's are sacred by their parents, but then teachers, police, and gov't tell them that they are illegal and that people go to jail for them, then it seriously changes the way that those early experiences are going to be viewed!

I think that if a child is going to be given psych's they could be given CHILD SIZE DOSES or simply a very small symbolic dose or anointment. To feed newborns or toddlers full sized doses I think is irresponsible. You don't but a 6 year old on a motorcylce before they have mastered their training wheels.

Just like a childs' physical abilities develop in stages, so do their mentalities. And the "Set/setting" includes this "inner" set/setting




So supping the brew off of two of papa's fingers should fall under that! I sense a lot of fear from several posters here! I think its MORE important to be with your parents while they are in the often-times 'healing crisis' that aya can bring. Let them know its okay to shit themselves if it happens, heck, they only stopped shitting themselves a few years ago! And ma and pa dealt with it then...or puking...it's okay to puke in context (not after every meal as some young folks seem apt to do), its okay to cry and weep and sing and see God in a close circle of friends.
It's okay to be human, to have foibles, to have weakness's, to tremor in fear at a vision, to cry out suddenly in the midst of a warm summers night because the beauty is overwhelming! To arouse the next day, sit and talk with those who were there and have a good chuckle, a nice cold beer and a 'wow' type attitude.
It's okay to question the world around you and most importantly...to PAY ATTENTION to the world around you beacuse as any good young hobbit knows...the world may soon try and effect you! Trust plants more than
doctors (those nefarious pill pushers...stick to battlefield injuries!), trust the natural world which carries us if we are smart about it from cradle to grave. The plants will be there (hopefully!) long after ma and pa are gone. There is a continuity about nature if we only care to see it. I care, I show it.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5196116 - 01/18/06 06:34 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"proper values?
hmmm
like at church?
like at school?
like your parents?
like your buddies?"

It is true that values are subjective. My values are based around compassion for others, being kind, giving others the benefit of the doubt, being generous with possesions, being helpful to others, and being true to ones self. I do not believe in defining my children's interests. I want these things to be discovered on their own, though there is no doubt that I have had an influence here without really trying as they are around me a lot. When I say proper values I mean important core values...not mode of dress or taste in entertainment and the like.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (01/18/06 07:29 PM)

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
    #5196129 - 01/18/06 06:39 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"BTW, there is an "Ignore User" feature."

That feature is for sissies who can't handle unvarnished opinion. I used it once, but I felt weak and hurt so I turned it off. There is no opinion I will not hear out.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5196221 - 01/18/06 07:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:

It is true that values are subjective. My values are based around compassion for others, being kind, giving others the benefit of the doubt, being generous with possesions, being helpful to others, and being true to ones self. I do not believe in defining my children's interests, but I want these things to be discovered on their own, though there is no doubt that I have had an influence here without really trying as they are around me a lot. When I say proper values I mean important core values...not mode of dress or taste in entertainment and the like.




Aya is not 'entertainment' in the set and setting I have discussed. So then, seeing as you seem to feel yourself an arbeiter of truth...what would YOU tell your kid when he wants to participate in a long discussed, mush sought after ritual? "No go-to-bed" this is for a 'mature' audience? LOL! You've not met my kids. Nor for that matter has anyone here, excepting a few...I think!
"Adults Only" is for those old hippies who were browbeaten into believing they had no option but turning tail and hiding everything. I don't live in a climate of fear, though there is much to fear in this world. I simply do not believe that plants are to be feared. Known yes, there uses, or otherwise, poisonous attributes and what to avoid, how to slice them properly for steaming etc. A few more plant helpers in the pharacopia is not out of the ordinary.
We had an instance once where a child wanted a sip of pilzner. Now I on occassion make real pilzner. Ie. it is henbane based. We opted to give the child (or more importantly his mother opted) and I cut him off at one sip...why? Becuase its a noxious poison past one or two pints for an adult, I had no knowledge about its effects on a child. hence on sip.
And as for the 'ignore'...if someone won't answer (forgive me if the points been posted by the time I write this) if they are a parent or not...ignore them. They talk about that which they Know Not.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196232 - 01/18/06 07:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lancifer said:
Quote:

And you get a hangover from LSD? According to Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_effects.shtml), and from my and the experiences of all my acquaintaces, you appear to be one of the only one that does. But Im not talking about you, either.


There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.




These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?




Anyone can grow a plant or fungus. My children have their own gardens. But the knowledge of how to synthesize LSD is rather specialized.




Your point? Does production/cultivation of a drug affect it's effect?

Quote:


It is also not a traditional entheogen, having been used for the last 60 years or so.




Nontheless it is the most studied and researched psychedelic. When Joe Doe thinks 'psychedelic', he thinks 'acid'.

Whether something is natural or not, it's age, or whether it 'comes from the earth', does not have an affect it's effect.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196234 - 01/18/06 07:11 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Geesh, no wonder so many folks have such a high post count! I've only been here for a rather short time and viola! I don't have time to keep up with anything else on here...I thought my biz partner had a high count at cannabis world...7000...or so...but this is demanding! I suppose everyone here does something nefarious for a living to give them sooo much time!
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196274 - 01/18/06 07:30 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You are welcome to address my reply, but it was to redgreenvines, and referenced an earlier conversation we had on this subject. Just so you know my post was not directed at you or more than peripherally related to yours.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196305 - 01/18/06 07:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lancifer said:
Geesh, no wonder so many folks have such a high post count!  I've only been here for a rather short time and viola!  I don't have time to keep up with anything else on here...I thought my biz partner had a high count at cannabis world...7000...or so...but this is demanding!




Welcome to the Shroomery!! You'll learn to type quickly... I'd also familiarize yourself with the : smiley :  codes ---> :braindamage: :rofl: :lol:

it's much faster than looking through the smiley panel.

Quote:

I suppose everyone here does something nefarious for a living to give them sooo much time!
lancifer




If growing natural herbs and fungi is nefarious...

j/k:rolleyes:

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Fospher]
    #5196309 - 01/18/06 07:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:



There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.




These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?




Anyone can grow a plant or fungus. My children have their own gardens. But the knowledge of how to synthesize LSD is rather specialized.





Nontheless it is the most studied and researched psychedelic. When Joe Doe thinks 'psychedelic', he thinks 'acid'.

Whether something is natural or not, it's age, or whether it 'comes from the earth', does not have an affect it's effect.




LSD lacks a rigorous and tried morphogenetic field, to use Sheldrake.
there is no plant you can haul LSD out of without taking it through very many steps, sitting in a red lit room for days and coming up with ???? I trust the plants, for my children, MORE than I would trust a chemist whom I do not know. This is beating a dead horse...NEXT!
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196343 - 01/18/06 07:52 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

if the child had legal representation, you would be toast.

you are infringing on his cognitive liberty while fighting for your own.

you have secretly welcomed a recconning by posting here, and you are going to keep on getting it, or press ignore and continue as you were.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196409 - 01/18/06 08:07 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"LSD lacks a rigorous and tried morphogenetic field, to use Sheldrake."

Using science fiction to justify your point lends it no validity. At best Sheldrake's work is pure speculation. It is New Age science...not science.

You do not make a persuasive point with your whole argument about your lifestyle. Most of your info is New Age truisms not based on truth. Your knowledge of traditional customs is not based in reality according to the statements I see here, but more New Age hoopla, and your knowledge of chemistry is flawed by personal bias. Your method is based on flawed assumptions.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196446 - 01/18/06 08:14 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Geesh, no wonder so many folks have such a high post count! I've only been here for a rather short time and viola! I don't have time to keep up with anything else on here...I thought my biz partner had a high count at cannabis world...7000...or so...but this is demanding! I suppose everyone here does something nefarious for a living to give them sooo much time!"

If you do not like being at the center of a debate then you come to the wrong place. If you do not want your ideas tested and judged in the crucible of public opinion then do not post them. As far as what most of us do for a living...I am a computer tech. Most of the people I know here earn similarly respectable incomes from legitimate work as well...not from "something nefarious". In any case every long time poster here has been at the center of such a conflict. Lord knows I have.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5196578 - 01/18/06 08:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
if the child had legal representation, you would be toast.

you are infringing on his cognitive liberty while fighting for your own.

you have secretly welcomed a recconning by posting here, and you are going to keep on getting it, or press ignore and continue as you were.




A reconning is fine by me. You still don't seem to get it. Are you unable to read or are you simply proud of wearing ignorance as a shield? I am trying to raise aware children, i don't send them to public school to be dumbed down ( http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/). I don't practice 'safety' per se, vide: I didn't child proof a living space where there were no noxious poisons under the sink. I didn't block off stairs, the climb to the bed in the yurt was about 4 feet of bamboo ladder. They both fell out of bed on numerous occassions.
I live in a deeply psychedelic culture. Its rather simple. You can prattle on about nothing but you seem to evade any questions of yourself. Are you a parent or NOT! If not, be quiet, listen intently and weight the matter out for your own kids, if you'll find anyone to have them with sounding like a southern preacher!
My kids have never been to church, but have tried limited amounts of plant matter.
My kids have free reign, freedom...not license.
My kids feel free to ask of their parents anything about everything. Ever tried explaining where babies come from, and be understood, with a 4 year old?
My kids help do everything their parents do. They putter in the garden weeding, they can wash dishes, they explore the world from a solid base, they can be themselves.
My children are happy. My children are carefree, interested in the natural world and adaptable. they don't scream and know how to use utensils whilst eating. they have both been adopted by native elders.
"Chief little But Big" is my son's name, given to him by a Hereditary elder of the Coast Salish. So...what, oh wise poohbah-of your-own making have YOU have to offer? What wondrous panacea are you going to offer the world if not healthy, happy, inquisitive, adaptable children?
Perhaps the 3 mad dogs of religion, reason and war...yummie!!!!
lancifer
"we can chant the la-atest slo-ogan's but we can't think on our own"
sung to the battle hymn of the Republic


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196602 - 01/18/06 08:49 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Once again there is an ignore setting if you are not stable enough for honest opinion.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196640 - 01/18/06 08:58 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

you are able to show quite a lot of achievement but are still in denial about where you are and what you are doing.
I am happy that your kids have avoided suffering your safety violations in spite of you.
mine did fine and found their own way to get scraped and damaged without me being especially heedless of common sense safety.

you are chanting a defiant slogan yourself and have presumed me to be your enemy and dressed me to that fantasy. I think it is nice and even funny that you have a yurt, but it is sad that you think it makes you superior than someone that thinks differently about your politics.

this is about politics then, isn't it.

from the child's rights to cognitive freedom, to your right to live in a yurt, and it has been a fight all the way against your daddy's suit.

O' do correct me on that one please.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5196652 - 01/18/06 09:02 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Using science fiction to justify your point lends it no validity. At best Sheldrake's work is pure speculation. It is New Age science...not science.

You do not make a persuasive point with your whole argument about your lifestyle. Most of your info is New Age truisms not based on truth. Your knowledge of traditional customs is not based in reality according to the statements I see here, but more New Age hoopla, and your knowledge of chemistry is flawed by personal bias. Your method is based on flawed assumptions.




Something seems to be up with the quote function, i keep getting other quotes whilst trying to quote someone else...
My chemistry is not bad. I know many a fine chemist (legally now). My son's godfather is starting a phtochemical research company with Dennis McKenna, they both have fine credentials.
I'm not sure what you mean by New Age 'hoopla' that defintion does not seem to fit for most gardeners i know. We are a pragmatic bunch. Permaculture has been proven beyond a doubt to function as it was designed to. there are permacultures the size of texas functioning right now in Australia.
As for Sheldrake, why is he 'new age' becuase he disagree's with others? is that the demarcation mark? A bad write up in 'Nature'?
What about Reich, what about Schuaberger (he did break the 2nd 'Law' of thermodynamcis at the berlin Institute of technology...is he new age because he did so?). Is the 'Contiuum Concept bogus becuase it was written by an observant Jewess rather than a White dude?
My method is my own, who are you or anyone else to judge for that matter? Self-righteous indignation got the better of ya? Preaching to the choir is fine but I'm not a church goer. So what is it about this matter that seems to raise such ire? Jealous that your parents told you Santa Claus was real then had yer bubble burst? The Tooth Fairy perhaps...my kids don't believe in either of them but they sure appreciate their gifts.
If I choose to not lie, be open, and frank and caring with my kids what right do have to become the 'state' and say it is wrong. We are in the mess we are in becuase of opinions like yours, not exploratory world views like mine. In this one thread I've seen all the negativity surrounding entheogens that plagues our culture like a decrepit vulture. old man in white suit 'virtues' like war, bio-engineered plagues and WMD.
Wow, I didn't know someone could be wonderstruck by a fungi and hold such harsh attitudes towards others on the path...no matter what their age. What an eye-openerhas! Born again fungal freaks. "THOU SHALL NOT..." has rang too loudly through the ages for me to be too bothered by it right now.
Perhaps you need to reread the posts and then sit back, reasses your opinions and then get back to me, right now you sound rather like a preacher.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5196681 - 01/18/06 09:09 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you are able to show quite a lot of achievement but are still in denial about where you are and what you are doing.
I am happy that your kids have avoided suffering your safety violations in spite of you.
mine did fine and found their own way to get scraped and damaged without me being especially heedless of common sense safety.

you are chanting a defiant slogan yourself and have presumed me to be your enemy and dressed me to that fantasy. I think it is nice and even funny that you have a yurt, but it is sad that you think it makes you superior than someone that thinks differently about your politics.

this is about politics then, isn't it.

from the child's rights to cognitive freedom, to your right to live in a yurt, and it has been a fight all the way against your daddy's suit.

O' do correct me on that one please.




Sadly the yurt has long been left to mildew! But it was an awesome thing to raise two kids in a garden. I don't know many kids who can identify well over a hundred plants at age 4-5 in this culture.
So, onto the bandwagon of 'cognitive freedom'. Did YOU give your children the option to go to school?
Did you give your kids the freedom to avoid, at all times foods they did not decide they liked? We are all addicted to amino acids remember?
If you were in my shoes, and your children wanted to sit in on a ritual would you deny them? Why?
If your child new that at a certain age she was going to have a special birthday party where none of her kid friends was invited but all the adult women she looked up to were going to be there...would you deny her right to attend?
If so, I'll agree to disagree. Becuase I simply think different.
lancifer


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196696 - 01/18/06 09:14 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Your last post has made my point clear. When confronted with logic you respond with anger. In the end administration of entheogens to adolescent children is a gross neglect of responsibility. To even let them taste henbane is like letting them taste drain cleaner. The fact that you admittedly ignore common sense safety in a defiant manner speaks of denial of parental responsibility. I would NOT hesitate to share entheogens with an adult child of mine, but allowing this to occur with a pre-adolescents is very irresponsible. It doesn't matter if you live in a commune with an aya guru at your disposal, you are not living in a traditional culture, but in an artificially created traditional culture with little relation to a real one, but based on New Age interpretations of it.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196734 - 01/18/06 09:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

yes they chose their own schools after public school
their own courses from grade 7 on to university.
I supervised the nutrition but they chose their food.
they grew up in the city and had knowledge of many many women of many races and creeds and we had mixed age parties whenever possible.
No retro religion or pretend societies tho.
but it is a big city, stuff is always happenning.

and about the lsd
probably lsd is the best thing humans have found except for sex and food and water.
certainly for it's power, it's the least physically disabling psychedelic (no organs are harmed at any reasonable or unreasonable dose).

mushroom, dmt, and salvia are nice natural source alternates for this long dry spell until lsd comes back.

even if it is always kept from us by the wicked establishment we will still have the naturals which are only "arguably" just as good.

Anyway you don't actually think that different
I agree totally about the farming, but the rest of what you echo is political and religious mumbo jumbo.

what about your daddy and the suits? are you sure you are not playing out something in that department.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5196745 - 01/18/06 09:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"lsd is the best thing humans have found except for sex and food and water."

You are preaching to the choir.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5196761 - 01/18/06 09:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

I sing in the choir - or hum, never really learned the words


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196763 - 01/18/06 09:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Each person who becomes a parent creates a culture. You can adopt the current one you belong to and fashion your tribe to belong to it to one degree or another. Or you can decide that you want to reject most of what your current culture is offering and choose from a different model. But one has to be careful that these opposed cultures don't crash into each other without preparation.

I really don't know the answer to the issue we are discussing here. I think a very thoughtful person that wasn't out to prove anything could pull off what you are trying and doing quite well. But that's just my guess.

In the end each parent makes decisions based on who they are. Nobody has a corner on the perfect outcome or way of doing things. Being a great believer in the Tao and everything that happens is just right for the Universe I might conclude that we need people doing all of it.

So I say good luck with your child raising. I don't think things are so bad as this thread makes out. I think I would rather have had you for a daddy than the one I got. And he was perfectly normally sick.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5196808 - 01/18/06 09:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"think I would rather have had you for a daddy than the one I got."

You wouldn't have wanted me for a Daddy? Of course not...I would have made you wait until you were 18 until I let you take drugs. If I had caught you in the playpen with acid I would smack your hand and say "Bad, Icelander, bad!!!"


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5196856 - 01/18/06 09:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Had you been my daddy Hue, we'd be fishing right now. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196864 - 01/18/06 09:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

In the end (though I doubt this will be given the last word) it comes down to this...
I do not desire to do anything without my children present. I am not ashamed of my use of fungi or aya to any degree what-so-ever. I am not ashamed to grow medical marijuana for 3 of my fellow sick Canadians who's only other access would be piss-poor gibberish from Manitoba.
I am not overly fond of my habituation to 1-4, but I never hid it, I refuse to hide.
I am proud of my learned ability to provide non-GMO food for my and others children. I am proud of the fact that I have a tight enough circle of sane, sensible and creative people to do what I have done already.
I am proud of my many friends in the psychedelic community (who shall for the most part remain nameless) who have helped me grope through this most difficult of decisions and yet I stand firm with my (and my partners, and my ayahuascero's and our 'womyn folks') decision. There is nada at this point that anyone has not said that I have not taken into consideration at a prior point in time.
I am aware this is a contentious issue and most likely will be for a long time. You have to trust that I am not raising dolts. I am raising caring, compassionate, vibrant, creative and rather smart children who know how to behave from sandbox to 5 Star Hotel dining room. But that is trust.
So I at this point will ask to be judged on the merit of posts I make over a certain period of time (decide for yourself). If after said time is up, call me back to this discussion. But it is not going anywhere. Chastising someone you don't know over a situation you have no grasp on is ludicrous. It is ludicrous for me to respond much more.
If it were not for the fact that I myself, my kids and my friends are intimately woven into the psychedelic world created during the heyday of fine substances from the PoCo lab of Vancouver during the 90's who knows where I would be, if I would even have kids, or what friends i might call my own.
But these things did go through the formality of occurring and I am where I am because of these things. I am more than willing to pick this up but I am finding that an assault on my parenting skills in a new venue is akin to the old bitch who yelled at me on the ferry to Vancouver because my son was playing with a 'dangerous' fork.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5196868 - 01/18/06 09:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

if you been my daddy we'd be smoke'n


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5196876 - 01/18/06 09:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

If Iancifer wants to give his 7 year old mushrooms that's fine and if anybody else doesn't want to then they don't have to.

Lets engage the issues, not personalities.

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5196878 - 01/18/06 09:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Had you been my daddy Hue, we'd be fishing right now."

Damn straight. Wait a minute...then I would be older than you are. You will have to find another daddy. Your now an orphan.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5196890 - 01/18/06 09:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Excuse me, but I engaged only his ideas. You need to read the posts before you reply. My joke was directed towards Icelander...not lancifer.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
    #5196917 - 01/18/06 09:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

almost got one out without a bitch reference,
well each post stands by its own
in the last one you are again a proud caring farming daddy
with a big chip on your shoulder, and well, 'till we meet again.

meeep beep


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5196928 - 01/18/06 09:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

You're now an orphan.

I'm used to it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
    #5206132 - 01/21/06 11:19 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
    #5209370 - 01/22/06 08:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
This is not an either/or proposition.  Tsk-tsk! Logical fallacy.




Yes it is either/or. The definiton of the word "isolate" is to set apart from or to render free from external influences. The act of not presenting a child into a situation is isolation, as the meaning of the word isolation represents exactly that. Please do not unnecessarily scold me. :tongue:


Quote:

This is your opinion, not a fact.  Excluding your children, or anyone else, from some activities in your life does not necessarily limit their grasp on reality. :rolleyes:




I never stated that excluding children from some activities in one's life does not necessarily limit their grasp on reality. I simply stated that such would keep them more seperated from reality, to be specific, from your reality.

Reality is the totality of all aspects of existance. One cannot actually be more seperated from reality, it would simply be a change in the aspects of reality that are experienced, so, therefore, my statement was incorrect. However, in the context of this particular discussion, which involves his mentioning of this continuum theory, to remove a child from an experience that you yourself are involved in would thus seperate the child more from being present within your reality, so to speak, "your reality" referring to the situations that oneself is experiencing.

Personally, I would see the theory as a means to transform one's child into a continuation of oneself (thus, continuum theory :smirk:). That's a whole 'nother topic. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5209624 - 01/22/06 10:03 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Yes it is either/or. The definiton of the word "isolate" is to set apart from or to render free from external influences. The act of not presenting a child into a situation is isolation, as the meaning of the word isolation represents exactly that. Please do not unnecessarily scold me. :tongue:




Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
personally I am not happy about
taking one's children to public demonstrations.





You prefer to keep them isolated from the world?




Quote:

A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":

1. Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false).
2. Claim Y is false.
3. Therefore claim X is true.

This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because if both claims could be false, then it cannot be inferred that one is true because the other is false. That this is the case is made clear by the following example:

1. Either 1+1=4 or 1+1=12.
2. It is not the case that 1+1=4.
3. Therefore 1+1=12.

In cases in which the two options are, in fact, the only two options, this line of reasoning is not fallacious. For example:

1. Bill is dead or he is alive.
2. Bill is not dead.
3. Therefore Bill is alive.





In this case, the false dilemma you created is:

1. Either you take your children to public demonstrations or you isolate them from the world.

2. redgreenvines does not take his children to public demonstrations.

3. redgreenvines is isolating his children from the world.



The logically correct either/or alternative in this example is:

1. Either you take your children to public demonstrations or you exclude/isolate your children from public demonstrations.

2. redgreenvines does not take his children to public demonstrations.

3. redgreenvines is isolating his children from public demonstrations.



Is the fallacy clear now?

Have I scolded you unnecessarily, or were you overstepping the bounds of logic in your assertions? (False dilemma :wink:)

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
    #5209687 - 01/22/06 10:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Is the fallacy clear now?




No it is not, as isolation from public demonstrations would effectively isolate oneself from the world. Unless one were completely confined to one's private quarters, one certainly would bear witness to shows, displays, manifestations, the act of presenting something to sight or view in public. The nature of being in public implies public demonstrations, as simply appearing in public is a demonstration.


Quote:


Have I scolded you unnecessarily, or were you overstepping the bounds of logic in your assertions? (False dilemma :wink:)




You have unnecessarily scolded me. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
    #5209760 - 01/22/06 10:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks Veritas for using the cleansing sponge of insight to brush the spilt salt of that fauly logic shaker off that table, a superstitious toss over the left shoulder might help as well.

As far as why I would not take a child to a public demonstration there are two main reasons, one is that it can get dangerous and two is that a child should not be a hostage:

In many other social circumstances (not public demonstrations) the world invites the parade of people with children to share and learn. So much can be gained and enjoyed at museums, restaurants, theaters, as well as the everyday markets schools and even sometimes the workplace, etc. Things are orderly and are likely to provide a good base for children to grow with, socially speaking.

At public demonstrations, an effort is made to alter the existing and functioning world into a new order, and one should expect resistance even if the demonstration is 100% legit, i.e. street permits taken, rentacops provided for safety etc., yet some opposition can be expected.

Some people still take their children into these political forays even though the forays likely do degenerate into the bilateral hurling of epithets or worse. some people actually leave public demonstrations having suffered dearly (and bloodily) for their beliefs, since occasionally demonstrations become skirmishes, battles, and warzones - supposedly for better causes.

some people expect that to happen and take their children anyway, even partly with the idea to hide behind the children for safety, i.e. who would hurt a child.

In my mind this is a form of hostage taking, a kind of safety violation that exceeds the violation of leaving toxic cleansers in easy access and reach of toddlers.

Law making and law changing are a matter for adults to fight over, and are not a "safe zone" for children to be exposed in. I find that people who take their children to public demonstrations like this are proving the wrong thing and sending the wrong message to all parties affected.

so let the kids come to a picnic or to a parade, and skip the danger zones till they are older.


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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5209766 - 01/22/06 10:50 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, come now, you know that redgreenvines was referring to political demonstrations, i.e. marching in circles with slogan-covered signs,  deliberately getting arrested in order to initiate a court case to legalize drugs, or testifying to support said court case.  :rolleyes:

You are intentionally broadening the scope of his comment beyond the context of his discussion.  If he had said "I don't believe in allowing my children to go out in public," then you might have an argument for them being isolated from the world.

Within the context of including children in political demonstrations or not including children in political demonstrations, would you say that the latter option involves isolating them from the world?

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
    #5209909 - 01/22/06 11:27 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Within the context of including children in political demonstrations or not including children in political demonstrations, would you say that the latter option involves isolating them from the world?




Why, of course not, because that would be a logical fallacy. :smirk:

Quote:


Oh, come now, you know that redgreenvines was referring to political demonstrations, i.e. marching in circles with slogan-covered signs,  deliberately getting arrested in order to initiate a court case to legalize drugs, or testifying to support said court case.  :rolleyes:
You are intentionally broadening the scope of his comment beyond the context of his discussion.





I admit that I am able to grasp what might have been implied by his usage of the phrase "public demonstration", but, for the most part, I find it difficult to understand what he means by what he says, to be honest. There is absolutely no clear context in which his words are being placed, which is directly evidenced by the fact that he repeatedly insists that lancifer is using his children in court, none of which is apparent in lancifer's replies. :wtf: I honestly think that someone's reading comprehension is skewed.

Thus, do not tell me what I knew concerning his intended meaning. When someone purposely intends on being ambiguous in one's presentation of thoughts for discussion by others, it is to be expected, and others are not to be blamed for failure to read out of context.

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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5209954 - 01/22/06 11:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Thanks Veritas for using the cleansing sponge of insight to brush the spilt salt of that fauly logic shaker off that table, a superstitious toss over the left shoulder might help as well.




i'm afraid it won't work for your brazen assumptions concerning him and his children. You follow this quotation with an in-depth analysis of why you do not feel children should take part in public demonstrations, which has resulted from your statements that lancifer is involving his children with court proceedings.

The fact remains that, even as you imply all of this is happening with this man, he has not once mentioned the slightest hint concerning public demonstrations in the context that you apparently use the word, which has been revealed by this post and nothing else. Beyond that, the only things he has mentioned involve him and some short references to court cases. Nowhere has he stated or implied that his children have been involved with these either.

As unclear as I find the context of your words to be, it is quite clear that this post of yours concerning your reasoning behind why you would not take children to public demonstrations is your manner of suggesting that lancifer is involving himself with such an action, because, otherwise, this post has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or anything contained within it, beyond your own suggestions that are not based in any actual observation.

I do not know why you would persist in defaming the character of lancifer based on nothing that he has said or implied in a forum that is centered around the discussion of ideas, but I would be glad to see such action cease. As sensitive as discussion involving children being allowed to use psychadelics naturally is, you are not helping with your onslaught of indirect accusations. :thumbdown:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5209955 - 01/22/06 11:39 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

"Some people still take their children into these political forays even though the forays likely do degenerate into the bilateral hurling of epithets or worse. some people actually leave public demonstrations having suffered dearly (and bloodily) for their beliefs, since occasionally demonstrations become skirmishes, battles, and warzones - supposedly for better causes."

As a father I have to say that it is perfectly alright and morally acceptable to introduce children to ones religion, politics, and morals. This is not brain washing. It is merely imparting an influence. Children do need guidance. They cannot make all of their own decisions while they are children because their judgment is not fully matured. My parents involved me in their thoughts on religion and politics, but I do not feel that I was indoctrinated. I have changed my political and religious views many times since then. My views are not my parents views. On some things we agree and on others we do not. I would hesitate to take children to an event where there was violence...hell, I wouldn't go myself. It is impossible to be objective in raising children so why even try. I am confident that they will mature and develop their own ideas. I am just setting an example of how to use the thought process....not an example of what to think. My oldest daughter is rapidly developing her own ideas about life, and many of them are a bit out there for me, but it is part of the growth process. I would draw the line at giving children psychedelics because I would be uncertain of the impact on their development in the context of our culture, but I would not hesitate to involve my children in any political/religious/moral event that I would deem wholesome enough for me to participate in.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5210019 - 01/22/06 11:55 AM (18 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

lancifer said:
though i do plan on taking mushrooms through the canadian courts (with damn good lawyers).
A useful example is real people having real healing journeys. Not 'your somehow irrelevant because your small'.




Quote:

lancifer said:
In the 'Continuum Concept' you take your kids with you wherever you go. How are they to learn to do things in a sane manner if they are left behind?






Quote:

redgreenvines said:
if he goes to court with the story as it has been put here, then the kids will be on the stand, and probably in the newspaper too.
thus they will be in the line of fire in lancifer's private war.





Quote:

lancifer said:
And as for going through the court system again, I do believe I said 'at a later date'. I intend on setting up a booth on Commercial Drive in Vancouver, asking for I.D. (over 18's) and selling the product I made for 4.5 years "Scooby Snacks". Since they contain cubensis I expect to get arrested and there is a research lawyer who's agreed to take on my case gratis. I don't think I'll take my kid to the park that day.




As lancifer is apparently the custodial parent, his children will almost certainly become involved in any investigation of him in connection with drug charges.  Perhaps "at a later date" means after his kids are grown, but he did not specify this.

He also connected his comments (in the first quote) about taking drugs through the court system and the "useful example" of the healing journeys of real people, including kids who are not "irrelevant because they are small."  :shrug:

red might be reading into these comments, but I read into them in the same way.  If lancifer's stated belief is that children are not to be excluded from their parent's activities (Continuum Concept), then he would want to include them in his political/legal activities.  Maybe not at the park when he plans to be arrested, but likely in the court case which follows.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
    #5210080 - 01/22/06 12:11 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I was ready to walk away from clarifying.
I am so used to people not understanding me.
thanks again veritas


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5210088 - 01/22/06 12:13 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

I "grok" you, rgv.  :smile:

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #5215037 - 01/23/06 06:47 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)



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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: gnrm23]
    #5215051 - 01/23/06 06:50 PM (18 years, 1 month ago)

& www.maps.org

& maybe read aldous huxley's very psychedelic last novel _island_ for a glimpse of a culture where moksha is not taboo...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflineLapseofReason
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
    #23163846 - 04/28/16 02:56 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I have an opinion on this. Give your children rather YOUR experience with psychedelics and what it means for you in your development as a human being.

The value of a psychedelic experience, as far as i can tell, is the ability to make something out of its spirit in the "material" world. Children simply lack the experience to deliberately switch between the inner labyrinth and the outer one in safe ways! Let them stick with the human experience till they are ready to go to psychedelics by themselves and take the responsibility for their lives.



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What is worth knowing can´t be taught. It must be experienced.

Edited by LapseofReason (04/28/16 03:07 AM)

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: LapseofReason]
    #23164459 - 04/28/16 09:23 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

I am all for children having access to low doses of psychedelics. Remember that this culture is on them like flies on shit indoctrinating them. So what any intelligent ways must be is to undermine what is being done to them, which is a dividing them from their inherent connection with nature

Just read this sad article I read the other day which shows you just how fucked up more and more younger and younger children are in this world! (and also reflect on the magical occurrence of the presenting of this thread which gives me opportunity to share this VERY relevant article. To me this shows mysterious interconnectivity afoot)

‘Every day my son wishes he didn’t have to wake up’

[ohh, the shits dont let you read it unless you subscribe. I read it in a paper someone bought. To get gist just read the handwritten message. it is about how more and more kids are struggling to cope in this world and are thinking if suicide]

What 'treatment' would these kids be offered? THEIR drugs is what. because they would be classed 'mentally ill' by the very same oppressors causing the dis-ease
But if they had access to intelligent people who feel the same way about this world, and thus would listen with respect, and allowed to take small doses of psychedelics as a way to express their emotions, feelings, flow---then this would be infinitely better IMO

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Offlinetravsha
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: zzripz]
    #23164827 - 04/28/16 11:28 AM (7 years, 10 months ago)

In South America it is super common for pregnant women and children to take Ayahuasca or San Pedro.  It is seen as beneficial to their development.  I know many people who grew up drinking these psychedelics through childhood and they are totally healthy and smart and normal and fine in every way.

There is also this study on Santo Daime done by Brazil.  Santo Daime regularly drinks during pregnancy and they serve children often.  They drink Ayahuasca their whole lives and this study shows that compared to a control group they tested the same in areas of physical health, but better in emotional, mental and social health.  The study wasnt focused specifically on the effects on children, but did focus on a group of people who start drinking in the womb. 

http://www.singingtotheplants.com/2012/08/new-ayahuasca-study/

So there isnt enough evidence to say it is safe....  But it seems logical that if psychedelics are good for mental and emotional health in adults they might have similar effects in children.  Of course a lot of this would also depend on set and setting - doing the right amount in the right context and not an everyday thing.....  Doing psychedelics in the wrong setting could obviously be a bad idea.


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www.soulremedy.org

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: LapseofReason]
    #23166249 - 04/28/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LapseofReason said:
I have an opinion on this. Give your children rather YOUR experience with psychedelics and what it means for you in your development as a human being.

The value of a psychedelic experience, as far as i can tell, is the ability to make something out of its spirit in the "material" world. Children simply lack the experience to deliberately switch between the inner labyrinth and the outer one in safe ways! Let them stick with the human experience till they are ready to go to psychedelics by themselves and take the responsibility for their lives.







Well said! :congrats:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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