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lancifer
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Mod edit: no flaming, please read the rules before you post!
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
Edited by Annom (01/19/06 01:41 AM)
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lancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Fospher]
#5196000 - 01/18/06 06:08 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
And you get a hangover from LSD? According to Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_effects.shtml), and from my and the experiences of all my acquaintaces, you appear to be one of the only one that does. But Im not talking about you, either.
There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.
These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?
Anyone can grow a plant or fungus. My children have their own gardens. But the knowledge of how to synthesize LSD is rather specialized. It is also not a traditional entheogen, having been used for the last 60 years or so. The Morphogenetic filed of LSD is not as deeply based as plant entheogens. lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196007 - 01/18/06 06:09 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The rules for posting in this forum are simple and few:
1) No flaming. If you can't state your case or refute someone else's case without calling him/her "stupid" or an "idiot" don't bother posting here. This forum is for intelligent discussion, not for belittling someone who holds differing opinions. This rule will be strictly enforced. If you have been warned already you will receive a temporary ban, if you continue to flame you will be banned permanently. Choose your words wisely or suffer the consequences.
BTW, there is an "Ignore User" feature. It would be wise to use it, rather than resorting to insulting other users when they disapprove of your POV and actions.
Edited by Veritas (01/19/06 12:12 PM)
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lancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: dr0mni]
#5196047 - 01/18/06 06:18 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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dr0mni said: There have been a lot of good posts in this thread!
I think that we can all agree that it depends entirely upon social context! If a kid grows up in a culture that regards psych's as sacred then they would certainly be able to incorperate their early psychedelic experiences with their functioning adulthood.
If however the child is taught that psych's are sacred by their parents, but then teachers, police, and gov't tell them that they are illegal and that people go to jail for them, then it seriously changes the way that those early experiences are going to be viewed!
I think that if a child is going to be given psych's they could be given CHILD SIZE DOSES or simply a very small symbolic dose or anointment. To feed newborns or toddlers full sized doses I think is irresponsible. You don't but a 6 year old on a motorcylce before they have mastered their training wheels.
Just like a childs' physical abilities develop in stages, so do their mentalities. And the "Set/setting" includes this "inner" set/setting
So supping the brew off of two of papa's fingers should fall under that! I sense a lot of fear from several posters here! I think its MORE important to be with your parents while they are in the often-times 'healing crisis' that aya can bring. Let them know its okay to shit themselves if it happens, heck, they only stopped shitting themselves a few years ago! And ma and pa dealt with it then...or puking...it's okay to puke in context (not after every meal as some young folks seem apt to do), its okay to cry and weep and sing and see God in a close circle of friends. It's okay to be human, to have foibles, to have weakness's, to tremor in fear at a vision, to cry out suddenly in the midst of a warm summers night because the beauty is overwhelming! To arouse the next day, sit and talk with those who were there and have a good chuckle, a nice cold beer and a 'wow' type attitude. It's okay to question the world around you and most importantly...to PAY ATTENTION to the world around you beacuse as any good young hobbit knows...the world may soon try and effect you! Trust plants more than doctors (those nefarious pill pushers...stick to battlefield injuries!), trust the natural world which carries us if we are smart about it from cradle to grave. The plants will be there (hopefully!) long after ma and pa are gone. There is a continuity about nature if we only care to see it. I care, I show it. lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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"proper values? hmmm like at church? like at school? like your parents? like your buddies?"
It is true that values are subjective. My values are based around compassion for others, being kind, giving others the benefit of the doubt, being generous with possesions, being helpful to others, and being true to ones self. I do not believe in defining my children's interests. I want these things to be discovered on their own, though there is no doubt that I have had an influence here without really trying as they are around me a lot. When I say proper values I mean important core values...not mode of dress or taste in entertainment and the like.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
Edited by Huehuecoyotl (01/18/06 07:29 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
#5196129 - 01/18/06 06:39 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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"BTW, there is an "Ignore User" feature."
That feature is for sissies who can't handle unvarnished opinion. I used it once, but I felt weak and hurt so I turned it off. There is no opinion I will not hear out.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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lancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5196221 - 01/18/06 07:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Huehuecoyotl said:
It is true that values are subjective. My values are based around compassion for others, being kind, giving others the benefit of the doubt, being generous with possesions, being helpful to others, and being true to ones self. I do not believe in defining my children's interests, but I want these things to be discovered on their own, though there is no doubt that I have had an influence here without really trying as they are around me a lot. When I say proper values I mean important core values...not mode of dress or taste in entertainment and the like.
Aya is not 'entertainment' in the set and setting I have discussed. So then, seeing as you seem to feel yourself an arbeiter of truth...what would YOU tell your kid when he wants to participate in a long discussed, mush sought after ritual? "No go-to-bed" this is for a 'mature' audience? LOL! You've not met my kids. Nor for that matter has anyone here, excepting a few...I think! "Adults Only" is for those old hippies who were browbeaten into believing they had no option but turning tail and hiding everything. I don't live in a climate of fear, though there is much to fear in this world. I simply do not believe that plants are to be feared. Known yes, there uses, or otherwise, poisonous attributes and what to avoid, how to slice them properly for steaming etc. A few more plant helpers in the pharacopia is not out of the ordinary. We had an instance once where a child wanted a sip of pilzner. Now I on occassion make real pilzner. Ie. it is henbane based. We opted to give the child (or more importantly his mother opted) and I cut him off at one sip...why? Becuase its a noxious poison past one or two pints for an adult, I had no knowledge about its effects on a child. hence on sip. And as for the 'ignore'...if someone won't answer (forgive me if the points been posted by the time I write this) if they are a parent or not...ignore them. They talk about that which they Know Not. lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196232 - 01/18/06 07:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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lancifer said:
Quote:
And you get a hangover from LSD? According to Erowid (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_effects.shtml), and from my and the experiences of all my acquaintaces, you appear to be one of the only one that does. But Im not talking about you, either.
There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.
These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?
Anyone can grow a plant or fungus. My children have their own gardens. But the knowledge of how to synthesize LSD is rather specialized.
Your point? Does production/cultivation of a drug affect it's effect?
Quote:
It is also not a traditional entheogen, having been used for the last 60 years or so.
Nontheless it is the most studied and researched psychedelic. When Joe Doe thinks 'psychedelic', he thinks 'acid'.
Whether something is natural or not, it's age, or whether it 'comes from the earth', does not have an affect it's effect.
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lancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196234 - 01/18/06 07:11 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Geesh, no wonder so many folks have such a high post count! I've only been here for a rather short time and viola! I don't have time to keep up with anything else on here...I thought my biz partner had a high count at cannabis world...7000...or so...but this is demanding! I suppose everyone here does something nefarious for a living to give them sooo much time! lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196274 - 01/18/06 07:30 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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You are welcome to address my reply, but it was to redgreenvines, and referenced an earlier conversation we had on this subject. Just so you know my post was not directed at you or more than peripherally related to yours.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196305 - 01/18/06 07:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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lancifer said: Geesh, no wonder so many folks have such a high post count! I've only been here for a rather short time and viola! I don't have time to keep up with anything else on here...I thought my biz partner had a high count at cannabis world...7000...or so...but this is demanding!
Welcome to the Shroomery!! You'll learn to type quickly... I'd also familiarize yourself with the : smiley : codes --->
it's much faster than looking through the smiley panel.
Quote:
I suppose everyone here does something nefarious for a living to give them sooo much time! lancifer
If growing natural herbs and fungi is nefarious...
j/k
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lancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Fospher]
#5196309 - 01/18/06 07:42 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is a difference between 'drugs' and 'plants'.
These plants contain the drugs, so what is the difference you speak of? If I had a meth tree growing in my patio, would it not be a drug then?
Anyone can grow a plant or fungus. My children have their own gardens. But the knowledge of how to synthesize LSD is rather specialized.
Nontheless it is the most studied and researched psychedelic. When Joe Doe thinks 'psychedelic', he thinks 'acid'.
Whether something is natural or not, it's age, or whether it 'comes from the earth', does not have an affect it's effect.
LSD lacks a rigorous and tried morphogenetic field, to use Sheldrake. there is no plant you can haul LSD out of without taking it through very many steps, sitting in a red lit room for days and coming up with ???? I trust the plants, for my children, MORE than I would trust a chemist whom I do not know. This is beating a dead horse...NEXT! lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,176
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196343 - 01/18/06 07:52 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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if the child had legal representation, you would be toast.
you are infringing on his cognitive liberty while fighting for your own.
you have secretly welcomed a recconning by posting here, and you are going to keep on getting it, or press ignore and continue as you were.
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196409 - 01/18/06 08:07 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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"LSD lacks a rigorous and tried morphogenetic field, to use Sheldrake."
Using science fiction to justify your point lends it no validity. At best Sheldrake's work is pure speculation. It is New Age science...not science.
You do not make a persuasive point with your whole argument about your lifestyle. Most of your info is New Age truisms not based on truth. Your knowledge of traditional customs is not based in reality according to the statements I see here, but more New Age hoopla, and your knowledge of chemistry is flawed by personal bias. Your method is based on flawed assumptions.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196446 - 01/18/06 08:14 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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"Geesh, no wonder so many folks have such a high post count! I've only been here for a rather short time and viola! I don't have time to keep up with anything else on here...I thought my biz partner had a high count at cannabis world...7000...or so...but this is demanding! I suppose everyone here does something nefarious for a living to give them sooo much time!"
If you do not like being at the center of a debate then you come to the wrong place. If you do not want your ideas tested and judged in the crucible of public opinion then do not post them. As far as what most of us do for a living...I am a computer tech. Most of the people I know here earn similarly respectable incomes from legitimate work as well...not from "something nefarious". In any case every long time poster here has been at the center of such a conflict. Lord knows I have.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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lancifer
Stranger
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: if the child had legal representation, you would be toast.
you are infringing on his cognitive liberty while fighting for your own.
you have secretly welcomed a recconning by posting here, and you are going to keep on getting it, or press ignore and continue as you were.
A reconning is fine by me. You still don't seem to get it. Are you unable to read or are you simply proud of wearing ignorance as a shield? I am trying to raise aware children, i don't send them to public school to be dumbed down ( http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/). I don't practice 'safety' per se, vide: I didn't child proof a living space where there were no noxious poisons under the sink. I didn't block off stairs, the climb to the bed in the yurt was about 4 feet of bamboo ladder. They both fell out of bed on numerous occassions. I live in a deeply psychedelic culture. Its rather simple. You can prattle on about nothing but you seem to evade any questions of yourself. Are you a parent or NOT! If not, be quiet, listen intently and weight the matter out for your own kids, if you'll find anyone to have them with sounding like a southern preacher! My kids have never been to church, but have tried limited amounts of plant matter. My kids have free reign, freedom...not license. My kids feel free to ask of their parents anything about everything. Ever tried explaining where babies come from, and be understood, with a 4 year old? My kids help do everything their parents do. They putter in the garden weeding, they can wash dishes, they explore the world from a solid base, they can be themselves. My children are happy. My children are carefree, interested in the natural world and adaptable. they don't scream and know how to use utensils whilst eating. they have both been adopted by native elders. "Chief little But Big" is my son's name, given to him by a Hereditary elder of the Coast Salish. So...what, oh wise poohbah-of your-own making have YOU have to offer? What wondrous panacea are you going to offer the world if not healthy, happy, inquisitive, adaptable children? Perhaps the 3 mad dogs of religion, reason and war...yummie!!!! lancifer "we can chant the la-atest slo-ogan's but we can't think on our own" sung to the battle hymn of the Republic
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196602 - 01/18/06 08:49 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Once again there is an ignore setting if you are not stable enough for honest opinion.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,176
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196640 - 01/18/06 08:58 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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you are able to show quite a lot of achievement but are still in denial about where you are and what you are doing. I am happy that your kids have avoided suffering your safety violations in spite of you. mine did fine and found their own way to get scraped and damaged without me being especially heedless of common sense safety.
you are chanting a defiant slogan yourself and have presumed me to be your enemy and dressed me to that fantasy. I think it is nice and even funny that you have a yurt, but it is sad that you think it makes you superior than someone that thinks differently about your politics.
this is about politics then, isn't it.
from the child's rights to cognitive freedom, to your right to live in a yurt, and it has been a fight all the way against your daddy's suit.
O' do correct me on that one please.
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
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lancifer
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5196652 - 01/18/06 09:02 PM (18 years, 3 months ago) |
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Using science fiction to justify your point lends it no validity. At best Sheldrake's work is pure speculation. It is New Age science...not science.
You do not make a persuasive point with your whole argument about your lifestyle. Most of your info is New Age truisms not based on truth. Your knowledge of traditional customs is not based in reality according to the statements I see here, but more New Age hoopla, and your knowledge of chemistry is flawed by personal bias. Your method is based on flawed assumptions.
Something seems to be up with the quote function, i keep getting other quotes whilst trying to quote someone else... My chemistry is not bad. I know many a fine chemist (legally now). My son's godfather is starting a phtochemical research company with Dennis McKenna, they both have fine credentials. I'm not sure what you mean by New Age 'hoopla' that defintion does not seem to fit for most gardeners i know. We are a pragmatic bunch. Permaculture has been proven beyond a doubt to function as it was designed to. there are permacultures the size of texas functioning right now in Australia. As for Sheldrake, why is he 'new age' becuase he disagree's with others? is that the demarcation mark? A bad write up in 'Nature'? What about Reich, what about Schuaberger (he did break the 2nd 'Law' of thermodynamcis at the berlin Institute of technology...is he new age because he did so?). Is the 'Contiuum Concept bogus becuase it was written by an observant Jewess rather than a White dude? My method is my own, who are you or anyone else to judge for that matter? Self-righteous indignation got the better of ya? Preaching to the choir is fine but I'm not a church goer. So what is it about this matter that seems to raise such ire? Jealous that your parents told you Santa Claus was real then had yer bubble burst? The Tooth Fairy perhaps...my kids don't believe in either of them but they sure appreciate their gifts. If I choose to not lie, be open, and frank and caring with my kids what right do have to become the 'state' and say it is wrong. We are in the mess we are in becuase of opinions like yours, not exploratory world views like mine. In this one thread I've seen all the negativity surrounding entheogens that plagues our culture like a decrepit vulture. old man in white suit 'virtues' like war, bio-engineered plagues and WMD. Wow, I didn't know someone could be wonderstruck by a fungi and hold such harsh attitudes towards others on the path...no matter what their age. What an eye-openerhas! Born again fungal freaks. "THOU SHALL NOT..." has rang too loudly through the ages for me to be too bothered by it right now. Perhaps you need to reread the posts and then sit back, reasses your opinions and then get back to me, right now you sound rather like a preacher. lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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lancifer
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/06
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Last seen: 18 years, 2 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: you are able to show quite a lot of achievement but are still in denial about where you are and what you are doing. I am happy that your kids have avoided suffering your safety violations in spite of you. mine did fine and found their own way to get scraped and damaged without me being especially heedless of common sense safety.
you are chanting a defiant slogan yourself and have presumed me to be your enemy and dressed me to that fantasy. I think it is nice and even funny that you have a yurt, but it is sad that you think it makes you superior than someone that thinks differently about your politics.
this is about politics then, isn't it.
from the child's rights to cognitive freedom, to your right to live in a yurt, and it has been a fight all the way against your daddy's suit.
O' do correct me on that one please.
Sadly the yurt has long been left to mildew! But it was an awesome thing to raise two kids in a garden. I don't know many kids who can identify well over a hundred plants at age 4-5 in this culture. So, onto the bandwagon of 'cognitive freedom'. Did YOU give your children the option to go to school? Did you give your kids the freedom to avoid, at all times foods they did not decide they liked? We are all addicted to amino acids remember? If you were in my shoes, and your children wanted to sit in on a ritual would you deny them? Why? If your child new that at a certain age she was going to have a special birthday party where none of her kid friends was invited but all the adult women she looked up to were going to be there...would you deny her right to attend? If so, I'll agree to disagree. Becuase I simply think different. lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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