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lancifer
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Beautiful B.C.
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
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redgreenvines said: you are able to show quite a lot of achievement but are still in denial about where you are and what you are doing. I am happy that your kids have avoided suffering your safety violations in spite of you. mine did fine and found their own way to get scraped and damaged without me being especially heedless of common sense safety.
you are chanting a defiant slogan yourself and have presumed me to be your enemy and dressed me to that fantasy. I think it is nice and even funny that you have a yurt, but it is sad that you think it makes you superior than someone that thinks differently about your politics.
this is about politics then, isn't it.
from the child's rights to cognitive freedom, to your right to live in a yurt, and it has been a fight all the way against your daddy's suit.
O' do correct me on that one please.
Sadly the yurt has long been left to mildew! But it was an awesome thing to raise two kids in a garden. I don't know many kids who can identify well over a hundred plants at age 4-5 in this culture. So, onto the bandwagon of 'cognitive freedom'. Did YOU give your children the option to go to school? Did you give your kids the freedom to avoid, at all times foods they did not decide they liked? We are all addicted to amino acids remember? If you were in my shoes, and your children wanted to sit in on a ritual would you deny them? Why? If your child new that at a certain age she was going to have a special birthday party where none of her kid friends was invited but all the adult women she looked up to were going to be there...would you deny her right to attend? If so, I'll agree to disagree. Becuase I simply think different. lancifer
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196696 - 01/18/06 09:14 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your last post has made my point clear. When confronted with logic you respond with anger. In the end administration of entheogens to adolescent children is a gross neglect of responsibility. To even let them taste henbane is like letting them taste drain cleaner. The fact that you admittedly ignore common sense safety in a defiant manner speaks of denial of parental responsibility. I would NOT hesitate to share entheogens with an adult child of mine, but allowing this to occur with a pre-adolescents is very irresponsible. It doesn't matter if you live in a commune with an aya guru at your disposal, you are not living in a traditional culture, but in an artificially created traditional culture with little relation to a real one, but based on New Age interpretations of it.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196734 - 01/18/06 09:24 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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yes they chose their own schools after public school their own courses from grade 7 on to university. I supervised the nutrition but they chose their food. they grew up in the city and had knowledge of many many women of many races and creeds and we had mixed age parties whenever possible. No retro religion or pretend societies tho. but it is a big city, stuff is always happenning.
and about the lsd probably lsd is the best thing humans have found except for sex and food and water. certainly for it's power, it's the least physically disabling psychedelic (no organs are harmed at any reasonable or unreasonable dose).
mushroom, dmt, and salvia are nice natural source alternates for this long dry spell until lsd comes back.
even if it is always kept from us by the wicked establishment we will still have the naturals which are only "arguably" just as good.
Anyway you don't actually think that different I agree totally about the farming, but the rest of what you echo is political and religious mumbo jumbo.
what about your daddy and the suits? are you sure you are not playing out something in that department.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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"lsd is the best thing humans have found except for sex and food and water."
You are preaching to the choir.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5196761 - 01/18/06 09:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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I sing in the choir - or hum, never really learned the words
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196763 - 01/18/06 09:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Each person who becomes a parent creates a culture. You can adopt the current one you belong to and fashion your tribe to belong to it to one degree or another. Or you can decide that you want to reject most of what your current culture is offering and choose from a different model. But one has to be careful that these opposed cultures don't crash into each other without preparation.
I really don't know the answer to the issue we are discussing here. I think a very thoughtful person that wasn't out to prove anything could pull off what you are trying and doing quite well. But that's just my guess.
In the end each parent makes decisions based on who they are. Nobody has a corner on the perfect outcome or way of doing things. Being a great believer in the Tao and everything that happens is just right for the Universe I might conclude that we need people doing all of it.
So I say good luck with your child raising. I don't think things are so bad as this thread makes out. I think I would rather have had you for a daddy than the one I got. And he was perfectly normally sick.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
#5196808 - 01/18/06 09:36 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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"think I would rather have had you for a daddy than the one I got."
You wouldn't have wanted me for a Daddy? Of course not...I would have made you wait until you were 18 until I let you take drugs. If I had caught you in the playpen with acid I would smack your hand and say "Bad, Icelander, bad!!!"
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5196856 - 01/18/06 09:42 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Had you been my daddy Hue, we'd be fishing right now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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lancifer
Stranger
Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 82
Loc: Beautiful B.C.
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196864 - 01/18/06 09:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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In the end (though I doubt this will be given the last word) it comes down to this... I do not desire to do anything without my children present. I am not ashamed of my use of fungi or aya to any degree what-so-ever. I am not ashamed to grow medical marijuana for 3 of my fellow sick Canadians who's only other access would be piss-poor gibberish from Manitoba. I am not overly fond of my habituation to 1-4, but I never hid it, I refuse to hide. I am proud of my learned ability to provide non-GMO food for my and others children. I am proud of the fact that I have a tight enough circle of sane, sensible and creative people to do what I have done already. I am proud of my many friends in the psychedelic community (who shall for the most part remain nameless) who have helped me grope through this most difficult of decisions and yet I stand firm with my (and my partners, and my ayahuascero's and our 'womyn folks') decision. There is nada at this point that anyone has not said that I have not taken into consideration at a prior point in time. I am aware this is a contentious issue and most likely will be for a long time. You have to trust that I am not raising dolts. I am raising caring, compassionate, vibrant, creative and rather smart children who know how to behave from sandbox to 5 Star Hotel dining room. But that is trust. So I at this point will ask to be judged on the merit of posts I make over a certain period of time (decide for yourself). If after said time is up, call me back to this discussion. But it is not going anywhere. Chastising someone you don't know over a situation you have no grasp on is ludicrous. It is ludicrous for me to respond much more. If it were not for the fact that I myself, my kids and my friends are intimately woven into the psychedelic world created during the heyday of fine substances from the PoCo lab of Vancouver during the 90's who knows where I would be, if I would even have kids, or what friends i might call my own. But these things did go through the formality of occurring and I am where I am because of these things. I am more than willing to pick this up but I am finding that an assault on my parenting skills in a new venue is akin to the old bitch who yelled at me on the ferry to Vancouver because my son was playing with a 'dangerous' fork.
-------------------- A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not worth glancing at. O.Wilde
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
#5196868 - 01/18/06 09:43 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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if you been my daddy we'd be smoke'n
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Metasyn
one
Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 239
Loc: PNW
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5196876 - 01/18/06 09:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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If Iancifer wants to give his 7 year old mushrooms that's fine and if anybody else doesn't want to then they don't have to.
Lets engage the issues, not personalities.
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
#5196878 - 01/18/06 09:44 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Had you been my daddy Hue, we'd be fishing right now."
Damn straight. Wait a minute...then I would be older than you are. You will have to find another daddy. Your now an orphan.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Metasyn]
#5196890 - 01/18/06 09:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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Excuse me, but I engaged only his ideas. You need to read the posts before you reply. My joke was directed towards Icelander...not lancifer.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: lancifer]
#5196917 - 01/18/06 09:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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almost got one out without a bitch reference, well each post stands by its own in the last one you are again a proud caring farming daddy with a big chip on your shoulder, and well, 'till we meet again.
meeep beep
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5196928 - 01/18/06 09:55 PM (18 years, 2 months ago) |
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You're now an orphan.
I'm used to it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Icelander]
#5206132 - 01/21/06 11:19 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
#5209370 - 01/22/06 08:11 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: This is not an either/or proposition. Tsk-tsk! Logical fallacy.
Yes it is either/or. The definiton of the word "isolate" is to set apart from or to render free from external influences. The act of not presenting a child into a situation is isolation, as the meaning of the word isolation represents exactly that. Please do not unnecessarily scold me.
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This is your opinion, not a fact. Excluding your children, or anyone else, from some activities in your life does not necessarily limit their grasp on reality.
I never stated that excluding children from some activities in one's life does not necessarily limit their grasp on reality. I simply stated that such would keep them more seperated from reality, to be specific, from your reality.
Reality is the totality of all aspects of existance. One cannot actually be more seperated from reality, it would simply be a change in the aspects of reality that are experienced, so, therefore, my statement was incorrect. However, in the context of this particular discussion, which involves his mentioning of this continuum theory, to remove a child from an experience that you yourself are involved in would thus seperate the child more from being present within your reality, so to speak, "your reality" referring to the situations that oneself is experiencing.
Personally, I would see the theory as a means to transform one's child into a continuation of oneself (thus, continuum theory ). That's a whole 'nother topic.
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Yes it is either/or. The definiton of the word "isolate" is to set apart from or to render free from external influences. The act of not presenting a child into a situation is isolation, as the meaning of the word isolation represents exactly that. Please do not unnecessarily scold me.
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fireworks_god said:
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redgreenvines said: personally I am not happy about taking one's children to public demonstrations.
You prefer to keep them isolated from the world?
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A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":
1. Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false). 2. Claim Y is false. 3. Therefore claim X is true.
This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because if both claims could be false, then it cannot be inferred that one is true because the other is false. That this is the case is made clear by the following example:
1. Either 1+1=4 or 1+1=12. 2. It is not the case that 1+1=4. 3. Therefore 1+1=12.
In cases in which the two options are, in fact, the only two options, this line of reasoning is not fallacious. For example:
1. Bill is dead or he is alive. 2. Bill is not dead. 3. Therefore Bill is alive.
In this case, the false dilemma you created is:
1. Either you take your children to public demonstrations or you isolate them from the world.
2. redgreenvines does not take his children to public demonstrations.
3. redgreenvines is isolating his children from the world.
The logically correct either/or alternative in this example is:
1. Either you take your children to public demonstrations or you exclude/isolate your children from public demonstrations.
2. redgreenvines does not take his children to public demonstrations.
3. redgreenvines is isolating his children from public demonstrations.
Is the fallacy clear now?
Have I scolded you unnecessarily, or were you overstepping the bounds of logic in your assertions? (False dilemma )
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
#5209687 - 01/22/06 10:29 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Is the fallacy clear now?
No it is not, as isolation from public demonstrations would effectively isolate oneself from the world. Unless one were completely confined to one's private quarters, one certainly would bear witness to shows, displays, manifestations, the act of presenting something to sight or view in public. The nature of being in public implies public demonstrations, as simply appearing in public is a demonstration.
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Have I scolded you unnecessarily, or were you overstepping the bounds of logic in your assertions? (False dilemma )
You have unnecessarily scolded me.
Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,009
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Re: Psychedelics and children [Re: Veritas]
#5209760 - 01/22/06 10:48 AM (18 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks Veritas for using the cleansing sponge of insight to brush the spilt salt of that fauly logic shaker off that table, a superstitious toss over the left shoulder might help as well.
As far as why I would not take a child to a public demonstration there are two main reasons, one is that it can get dangerous and two is that a child should not be a hostage:
In many other social circumstances (not public demonstrations) the world invites the parade of people with children to share and learn. So much can be gained and enjoyed at museums, restaurants, theaters, as well as the everyday markets schools and even sometimes the workplace, etc. Things are orderly and are likely to provide a good base for children to grow with, socially speaking.
At public demonstrations, an effort is made to alter the existing and functioning world into a new order, and one should expect resistance even if the demonstration is 100% legit, i.e. street permits taken, rentacops provided for safety etc., yet some opposition can be expected.
Some people still take their children into these political forays even though the forays likely do degenerate into the bilateral hurling of epithets or worse. some people actually leave public demonstrations having suffered dearly (and bloodily) for their beliefs, since occasionally demonstrations become skirmishes, battles, and warzones - supposedly for better causes.
some people expect that to happen and take their children anyway, even partly with the idea to hide behind the children for safety, i.e. who would hurt a child.
In my mind this is a form of hostage taking, a kind of safety violation that exceeds the violation of leaving toxic cleansers in easy access and reach of toddlers.
Law making and law changing are a matter for adults to fight over, and are not a "safe zone" for children to be exposed in. I find that people who take their children to public demonstrations like this are proving the wrong thing and sending the wrong message to all parties affected.
so let the kids come to a picnic or to a parade, and skip the danger zones till they are older.
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