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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3861564 -

I'm going to pretty much skip the whole thread and say this:

There's two sides to everything.

On one hand, I believe women deserve as much respect as anyone, and I do whatever I can to avoid disrespecting anyone... so I don't condone potentially offensive subject matter or behavior.

On the other hand, I also believe that a lot of people blow everything way out of proportion when they should just learn how to go with the flow.

However, because we can't expect people to change to fit our will, we must learn to accept people for who they are and learn to work around the limitations they have set for themselves.

It's a largely grey area, which means one cannot make such broad generalizations when trying to discuss the subject. Instead, each situation must be approached individually, as that's what it is. An individual situation, with an individual person, who is going to have individual needs and limitations.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3861721 -

I'm going to skip most of the thread too.  Thanks Jacque, for setting the precedent!  :smile:

PhanTomCat is getting at something that's real and does exist.  There is alot of feminine subjugation of men in the workplace.  It comes from the paranoia surrounding the gross mistreatment of women in recent history.  Male or female, everyone who feels insecure is going to feel inclined to grasp at some kind of control.  The tension about sexual equality present in our culture offers an easy avenue for insecure women to exert an amount of control over their male co-workers.  It is quite common.

An instructor at my school was recently fired because he made a joke about women's time-of-the-month hormones during a lecture about the pharmacology relevant to the reproductive system.  I was there when he made the joke; almost everybody laughed, male and female alike.  One woman, however, was not satisfied with the joke and sounded the alarm.  That's all it takes.  He was gone at the end of the week.

Suppose that a male had been unsatisfied with a woman's joke about a man's hormone-driven tendencies.  Would he have had such results?  Realistically speaking, probably not.  For men in a professional setting, anything pretaining to sex is like an old WW2 land mine hidden in a farmer's field, a remnant of more troublesome times.  You're just going about your business, behaving naturally, when all of a sudden your legs have gone out from under you.

My father lost his job over a bogus sexual harassment claim.  He had been with his company for 25 years, starting when he was my age as a forklift operator on the warehouse floor.  He climbed the ladder all the way up to the board of directors.  The company hired for my increasingly busy father his own personal secretary, a young woman in her mid 20's.  After a month, she asked my father for a raise.  My father said it was too soon.  He was gone at the end of the week. 

My father's secretary had claimed that my father offered to grant her the raise if she showed him her breasts.  Bogus.  It was a plainly contrived piece of deceit, an absolute lie.  My father is a devout Christian man, and a man of dignity, integrity, and respect.  He would be uncomfortable using the word "bra" with anyone other than my mother.  To make a lewd, sexual remark to a co-worker would be vastly out of character for him, like Hitler giving a speech about the importance of tolerance and diversity.  But that does not matter.  Twenty-five years worth of that same shining reputation was nothing in the face of one claim from one female employee of just four weeks. 

When you cut through all of this mess, of course everybody is equal, male and female.  The equality exists existentially.  It does not exist culturally.  The reason it is a cultural problem is because our culture is deeply ashamed of itself.  Some, perhaps many women wrapped up in our culture are just plain jaded, and our society is organized in such a way right now that grants these jaded women almost unlimited power to dominate and manipulate others.  It's sad, but it's true.  And it will pass.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (03/03/05 09:56 AM)

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: Ped]
    #3861750 -

To be honest, I don't get the male vs female equality-thing debate.

Male, female...it's all human.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3862395 -

PhanTomCat said:
Now, doesn't that just blow....    :smirk:  Tell me, how ISSss that "EquaLLITY"....?


This is not a question of "equality" but one of being "civil". If a person (male or female) is in a work environment that is socially upsetting to him/her. The people who they work with should be "respectful" of their feelings.

If a someone is offended by cussing. then the people he/she is working with should try to not cuss around them.

If you had a new black guy in an office full of white people. He should not have to deal with any racist jokes/statements.

Its about treating people with respect, not really an equality issue.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: niteowl]
    #3862436 -

niteowl said:
This is not a question of "equality" but one of being "civil". If a person (male or female) is in a work environment that is socially upsetting to him/her. The people who they work with should be "respectful" of their feelings.

If a someone is offended by cussing. then the people he/she is working with should try to not cuss around them.

If you had a new black guy in an office full of white people. He should not have to deal with any racist jokes/statements.

Its about treating people with respect, not really an equality issue.


Well put.. basically what i was trying to say, but with less blithering and rambling... :smile:

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: niteowl]
    #3862448 -

It goes both ways, all depends on what you want in a relationship, are you into giving and recieving or just taking? How inferior do you feel not to have a level of dominance forced onto you? You know, a pack of wolves filled with Alpha males isn't much of a pack, everything needs a hierarchy. One's willingness to go with the flow (to a degree) is going to cement your capacity to evolve with similar social constraints.

If I reiterated anything sorry, not going to bother to read 5 pages.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3862721 -

I think it's all a question of how well you know your co workers. There are limits for everything, if you know those limits, something like sexual jokes might be ok in some environment but it could be different in another.
I work with 2 women on a team of 10 people, they are both married, mid 30's and they don't have any problem on hearing and sometimes making those kind of jokes, in fact we laugh a lot. Of course, we all know the limits, but let me tell you we are very liberal about it, but at the same time we respect each other by knowing where/how to stop and never get to insult anyone. Why don't we mind that much ? I don't know, perhaps because we're latins ... :wink:
Regarding the question about "bowing down", men usually set the limits a bit higher regarding tolerance in sexual expression. So yes, socially, every man has to lower that limit when is placed inside a mixed environment, otherwise social unity is compromised.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: MAIA]
    #3863426 -

How come when a man talks dirty to woman it is called sexual harrassment,
but when a woman talks dirty to a man it is charged $6.99/minute???


--------------------
'Og jeg vil ikke have en Student,
Som ligger og laeser om Natten,
Jeg vil have en Officier,
Som gaaer med Fjaer udi Natten'


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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: adeptMind]
    #3863476 -

adeptMind said:
How come when a man talks dirty to woman it is called sexual harrassment,
but when a woman talks dirty to a man it is charged $6.99/minute???


:lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: adeptMind]
    #3863724 -

"when a woman talks dirty to a man it is charged $6.99/minute??? "

That would make a rathere pathetic male... Someone talking dirty doesn't do anything for me. If you want filthy language just piss me off good and I give it for free quite often...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3863731 -

:lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3864013 -

I TOTALLY 100% agree with the comments about what *should* to be done in a work environment; Compassion, Understanding, Tolerance, etc. etc....   

The thing is that it is sort of like a "Weakest Link" type thing, or as described as a dormant "landmine" waiting to go off....  ANYThing can be Misunderstood, or Mis-perceived, just like the initial battle in this very thread....  I was FORCED to understand "Woman's Equality" in every aspect, but my simple words were not heard....  Until I explained the full meaning of them, over and over again....  Why....?    Emotions on the topic were blinding to the fact....  EMOTIONS....

The whole "Women's Equality" movement is supposed to be about "Women Being EQUAL with Men, but it seems far from the actual road that has been paved..... 

A long time ago, men worked, woman stayed home....  We have come a long way since then....  In bringing a woman to the workplace brought sexual harassment, and many many "equality" struggles for the modern day women....  However, I don't think that Equality is the right word for the way things are shaping up to be....  Women are not trying to be "equal" to the men they work with....  They have made men be more conscious that there is a woman in the office (NOT that I think this is a bad thing, AT ALL....  PLEASE know this of me :smile: :heart: )....  But making man work in a FEAR that they *MIGHT* say something (sexual or not) that *MIGHT* offend someone that may not be intended to receive those words....    :shake:  And in some cases, perhaps even most, the "victim" does NOT approach the offender to WORK IT OUT....    No Tolerance, No compassion, No understanding....  This type of situation SUX....  :thumbdown:

Living in absolute Fear of Accidentally saying something "Wrong" (to which is NOT clearly stated) is just not EQUALITY....  :shake:    If all people in the world were "equally tolerant" in the work place, this would be a moot point....  But everyone in the office will have to be careful of the possible "Sleeper Thermostat" freely walking around without having to explain to anyone that she has a particular problem with a certain part of her past or present....   

"Equality" seems to be coming full circle....  First men had the power, and put fear in women in the workplace....  NOW, it is the opposite....  Women have the power, and put FEAR in men working along side them....    Ironic....!  But, EQUAL...?      Pretty soon, we will have gone full circle, and us guys will all be at home doing dishes and trading recipies....!  :lol:  :shiftyeyes:

W000000000000000T  W00000000000T....!    :cheers:



The good thing is that if you make friends with your workmates, and understand them as they understand you, there *should* be no problems.... 
The bad thing is, someone not usually in the office might be passing by, unbeknownst to them....  :shocked:


So someone replies about a friends inquiry about a person in a movie by saying, "SHE is PHAT".... 
RIGHT as a slightly overweight, and HIGHLY self conscious passer by hears these words, on a "bad" day....
:smirk:  OK, You tell me what is going to happen....?  :smirk:


The lines are moving all over the place....    This way, that way, everyway....
Perhaps that was what seems to be "scary" to me about all of this....   
Makes me question being a manager at all....  :shrug:
Becuase it is seen as a "POWER" position, and sets up a sort of higharchy stereo-type.... 
As I am SURE my INTENTIONS would not be taken into consideration for a moment with a crying "innocent" VICTIM sniffing in a kleenex....  :shake:

100% Power....    Until Proven innocent....




******DAMN, this whole time I was spelling "Equality" wrong, and nobody said anything....!  :lol:


:heart:

And for note, my hands hurt bad today from pushing last night's typing, so I ain't gonna~ be saying too much....  I typed this at work today, slowly through the whole day....  It might not quite "fit" if there were a bunch more posts, but I wrote it, so I post it...!    :smile:    :heart:

Observing and learning....?  YES....!!!!    And me understanding about people is what makes me come back for MORE....!    :grin:  :yesnod:

For I am MAN, hear me ROAR....!
MMMEEEOOoooooowwwwww~~....



ME....


:heart:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their Sexual-Thermostat. . . [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3864160 -

Well, it can always be equal in every respect but courting.

Anybody ever see that one "sliders" where women ruled the world? Same shit happened, they played the dominant role. Anyhow the main point isn't in respects to cultural aspects, it's just that whatever you think nothing will ever be fully equal. One of the typical reasons why women are the ones that are being courting, rather then courting (old ass term i know) in this day and age is due to the fact that in regards to nature, man is expendable, whereas a women isn't. (By virtue of their anatomy, and their function [book by howard bloom which speaks of this: "the Lucifer Principle"]). Either way, true equality will only exist in our ideals regarding all practices... you pick the roles you want to play, they don't pick you... typically.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/03/05 06:23 PM)

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3864544 -

Quote:
All it takes are a few careless wise cracks to send us back into the dark ages.


Sorry, but that doesn't sound equal at all. If it just takes a joke about your butt to send you back to the dark ages, then you haven't gotten very far. Jokes are harmless unless you make it otherwise for yourself. A guy hears a joke made about him, and he'll just make a wise crack right back, cuz we're not so overly sensitive as to make it into a war on our gender. I can understand demanding professionalism out of workers, but for some reason, certain jokes are allowed while others are not. I'm not saying sexual harassment is a-ok, but to say that a few little comments bring you back to the stone age reek of hyperbole, and does more to make your gender look weak than any joke I could make.


--------------------

Edited by Paradigm (03/03/05 07:29 PM)

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: Silversoul]
    #3864594 -

Well....

'Fuck it' hand out waivers, simple problem simple solution.

Man: I've signed a waiver allowing me to engage in "black belt sexual" harrassment, want to talk?
Women: Sorry, I'm only a brown belt... go find a blackbelt to talk about that.

Stupid, and ridiculous example, but catch the drift of it? Just denote to what degree each person is able to deal with it, if it is really that large of an issue.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: Silversoul]
    #3865002 -

That was joke, like this topic is.

I can throw wise cracks back and forth with men and some guys CAN'T! I saw a show last night where a 16 year old guy who was being called fag and queer in school and killed himself. He couldn't throw back. Does any body care about him?

I am a parent and that was some bodies son. This is real life shit!

Remember the Columbine shootings? The guys who shot up class mates were also being harassed and called queers and fags.

Apparently these males were sensitive and the columbine ones picked up guns and waged war. It's not a gender issue. Its really one of intimidation, harassment and respect.

I bet the guys calling them fags and queers were just joking around, having some harmless fun huh?

I personally love to shred with the boys, my nick name was the shredder in St. Thomas. I don't do it here orrr as much in life off the board with close friends anymore because it can get negative after a while.

Dave Chappelle is one of my fav comediennes. He'd be awesome to work for. Give me a break!

I had just come from watching a documentary called "Bullied to Death" before I saw this post last night.

This is not a gender issue to me. Its one of knowing where the line is between close friends who have earned each others respect and people who enjoy intimidating others and how it should not be tolerated in schools or work places. I don't like to hear about it male on male, male on female, female on female or female on male.

My sister worked with a guy who would come to her desk making lewd comments and she finally reported him. They warned him to back off and stay away from her. After that, when she wasn't at her desk, he would draw pictures of bombs and devils on her desk pad.  He admitted to the drawings and he was fired. She was afraid he might retaliate for months walking out to her car from work and into her condo.

Why did she have to put up with that shit at work and who's to say it was harmless fun? He may be a total psycho case. How far would he have taken his intent to intimidate her at work?

My sister is more "fragile" then me which is probably why he singled her out. I've never had that problem and can throw it right back at men and women alike in fun and be assertive with my own sense of power and security.

Do you take me as a female who is easily intimidated or quick to cry, you hurt my feelings wah wah? I am a very confident woman who can hold my own anywhere. I was a bully for most of my life.

This isn't about me as I haven't personally had a problem with men in the work place I couldn't easily handle on my own.

Tom said he felt scared in the work place with women in it and thought it was unfair that he can't feel comfortable. I just wanted to highlight how unfair many practices in the work place have been to women and how many do not feel comfortable in it either.

NOT my sentiment, however, I wanted to be the voice of the women for whom it is because most of the women at the shroomery can hang and that voice would not be heard here and needs to be if it is to be a fair discussion.

I could just as easily argue any side of it because its really all ridiculous to me.

Is it fair women have to adhere to dress codes to look more like men in the office? I know women who get sent home to change.

Is the only way women are going to be accepted in the work place for them to become male like in it? How is that fair to women?

So some women ask for men to be more respectful looking for a fair compromise in the work place and the roof falls in???????

I've come very far myself an make my own way just fine wherever I am. The whole issue of women in the work place still needs work from both sides if we are to progress together as human beings.

I could easily say, "Oh fuck the wussy girls men and women a like they need to toughen up" and what would that solve? I would just make an ass of myself.

The whole issue of harassment, intimidation and lack of respect in general needs work.  :yesnod:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3865005 -

:lol:

Great post.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3865626 -

I think this has alot to do with the public nudity thread, "sexy" wouldnt exist if "sexy" was all around us in the beginning of our lives. There would only be sex, and that would be as normal as eating. How u would get a boner is the big question :lol:. So imagine we all lived in the nude from the very beginning, what would give you a reason to blow a whistle? Modern sexuality created this inequality IMO. Its even hard for us to imagine whether or not women would blow a whistle at men.

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Re: Women conPLETELY Make Men BOW DOWN to Their "SexualThermostat"... . . [Re: Jon]
    #3865665 -

In a way by virtue of your post isn't that a bad thing socially? (Again not asserting an opinion just a perspective) Essentially wouldn't that make people look into something that has more depth then a body... perhaps a soul as something that would be classified as "sexy"? Instead of the typical notion of a body being the sole attraction. (Going to be to some extent anyhow). Also I digress from my original position though, it would also inherently create what others had suggested in way of radical problems from the outset. But I certainly could see some benefit from it in the long run.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Don't Sweat The Little Things in Life.... (And They are ALL "Little Things"....) [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3865759 -

Quote:
Tom said he felt scared in the work place with women in it and thought it was unfair that he can't feel comfortable. I just wanted to highlight how unfair many practices in the work place have been to women and how many do not feel comfortable in it either.


  I didn't say it was unfair, I said it SUX....  :grin:  The reason it "sux" to me is because I am honestly kind at heart, and would NEVER want to hurt anyone in ANY way....  I joke around at absolutely everything, ALL the time....  The sucky part is that someone (non-genderly speaking now) would/could at any point take offense to my pure intents of humor --to lift others spirits and have fun, to inturn uplift my spirit and have fun-- and use that against me instead of just asking me to stop humoring about a certain aspect - I could adapt....    :frown:    Hell, I don't think I could ever stop making funnys, it is the way I am - at work or not....  I would get fired for sure, and all they have to do is not have a sence of humor like mine....  That would be the EquaLitY I would like to see....!    :tongue:




Quote:
NOT my sentiment, however, I wanted to be the voice of the women for whom it is because most of the women at the shroomery can hang and that voice would not be heard here and needs to be if it is to be a fair discussion.


  As I said, a woman's perspective is always needed - but I will rephrase that and say,
ALL perspectives are ALWAYS needed, and WANTED from EVERYBODY - they should just not be forcing opinions or views at people to be fact....  Instead, they should be SHARED - as other's perspective should also be HEARD and UNDERSTOOD....  How else does one learn and grow...?   

I would hope that this little thread, nor any other from anyone would ever stop anybody from speaking their mind, EVER (this isn't even "real life"...!?)  Nothing, and no one should stop anyone else from speaking their mind....  And people should not be so easily intimidated or offended by others as to feel they need to shut down or envoke any negative or hurtful emotions, from words.... 


It seems a much needed classes they *should*  teach in school as a required course thru every grade, should be classes on Self Esteem, and Confidence (and Tolerance)....    Perhaps a "Personal Growth 101" class thru life itself....  If this was taught, perhaps issues of tolerance and confidence would not be such an issue until things actually merit scrutany of the authorities (H.R., or the law)....  It boggles my mind that people (in any circumstance) would, or could be offended by simple words - intentional or not....  Sound coming from pushed air thru the vocal chords....  Words.... 

What happened to "freedom speach"....? 
What happened to "Sticks and Stones"....  <=== Right back to child-like fundementals....

That is why it is so mind boggling to me....  The ONLY people that *might* be able to hurt my feelings are the people I care about....  I don't understand why others do not see it this same way....  :frown:



ME....


:heart:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 Sinbad 5,771 100 05/30/06 11:32 AM
by Phoshaman
* women and art
( 1 2 3 all )		 Faaip_De_Oiad 4,371 57 12/20/04 01:57 AM
by Mushmonkey
* do men and women share the same essence?
( 1 2 all )		 Malachi 2,507 25 06/24/03 10:37 PM
by Ped
* Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! chemkid 1,726 14 08/08/02 05:00 PM
by Anonymous
* why do women in middle east cover their faces?
( 1 2 3 all )		 TameMe 6,030 53 01/31/06 12:37 PM
by Veritas
* Are women objects?
( 1 2 3 all )		 Mixomatosis 3,968 56 11/24/03 05:53 AM
by EvilGir

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