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Microscopic features [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #6322343 -

Responding to this late, but -

bluemeanie wrote:

"Ive never viewed a specimen of P. cyanofibrillosa but its important to be aware of which cystidia we are talking about - in this case this mushroom is supposed to have forked cheilocystidia, not pluerocystidia."

HOngkong told me that he viewed this mushroom - fricosa - under a microscope it was identical to Ps.cyanescens. Im not sure if thismeans that it has the same cystidia or spores. If its the same then chances are its just a phenotype of Ps,cyanescens - specifically if Guzman stated the same."

What we see in California IS NOT the Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa that Stametes and Guzman described from Washington state. Guzman is right about California "cyanofibrillosa" being pretty much identical microscopically to Ps. cyanescens.

The problem is, so is Ps. azurescens. And Ps. azurescens and Ps. cyanescens are even interfertile in the lab according to a recent paper I read. So a good case could be made that the three are essentially the same species. On the other hand, they maintain distinct populations with distinct macromorphological features even in geographically overlapping ranges. Hence, a case could be made that these populations are not interbreeding in nature and are therefore on their own evolutionary trajectory – which is as valid a concept of "species" as we have at present.

"The major problem with using cystidia to break entities up into separate species is that (with the exception of some specific mushrooms like Ps.azurescens) the cystidia can range from one collection to another to the point where they merge with the cystidial forms of other species. So whether they are definitive is still questionable - the DNA work being done indicates that they arent."

I have not found the above to be the case, so its a valid identifying feature, at least for species that aren't closely related. Ps. stuntzii, Ps. cyanescens, and Ps. semilanceata all have distinct cheilocystidial shapes, even if they're all fairly subtle variations on "lageniform".

Peter

Edited by Strophariaceae (11/30/06 06:31 PM)

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Re: Official Fall 2006 Winter 2007 San Francisco, Bay Area Thread. Post your finds here! [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #6322432 -

Strophariaceae said:
Oh, and I finally got a chance to look at Auweia's Richmond specimens (from last year) under the microscope – NOT Ps. azurescens! Nor anything else in the Ps. cyanescens group. It looks like either Ps. subaeruginascens (though not the same as the one that came out of GG Park a few years back) or Ps. stuntzii, though strangely lacking a ring in any of the photos Auweia posted.

Peter


wow, ok thanks peter..that's the first thing I heard so far about those..I found some stuntziis last week down south..these were a little bigger, and also they were a little stronger than cyans too..only one did it for me. All my friends say they are stronger too.

who knows, it could be yet another even newer species..hopefully the transplants will make it this year. last year was not good since they were getting old by the time I found it..

Just have to wait and see

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Re: Official Fall 2006 Winter 2007 San Francisco, Bay Area Thread. Post your finds here! [Re: auweia]
    #6322479 -

come to think of it, i thought they were something like stuntzii when i first saw them, or I thought they'd be too weak to bother with..at the time it was something I never saw before..I remember picking them and thinking I was going to toss those in the garbage because I knew they were psilocybe of some kind, but didn't really have that strong bluing.

then I ate one..those puppies were strong

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Re: Official Fall 2006 Winter 2007 San Francisco, Bay Area Thread. Post your finds here! [Re: auweia]
    #6322872 -

wooowoy,I'm in the real life dream mode right now sorry for any weridness.I read that 3 page Richmond report,and Read that Tahoe Said that then wood chips Come from Coos-Bay,But I didn't think that azures grew that far southI know they are native to the Mouth of the Columbia River between Washington and oregon state But this area is full of logging/lumberyards were theythen shipped it to Coos Bay,then to richmond,Here in Humboldt there are huge mills and they Sell the wood Chips to Cal-Trans who Spreads the Chips around all of Nor-Cal alond the freeways to help with water-runoff.


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I'm in a Magical Mushroom land!

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Re: Official Fall 2006 Winter 2007 San Francisco, Bay Area Thread. Post your finds here! [Re: OregonBluesGil]
    #6322952 -

yeah, that's possible, but they're not azures...I don't think they are stuntziis because those are 20-40 for a dose, and these are were 1 or 2...still are a year later dried too..A friend took one a few weeks ago

The could be those subaeruginascens tho (how do you say that anyway)

could be a double mystery here. My friends and I don't mind being test rabbits tho :laugh:

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Re: Official Fall 2006 Winter 2007 San Francisco, Bay Area Thread. Post your finds here! [Re: auweia]
    #6323197 -

god damn sun. i want some good ard down pors. iv got a feeling the small pathes i found yesterday are mearly the begining. once the bay gets good and wet i bet the buggers will come up in force.


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Re: Official Fall 2006 Winter 2007 San Francisco, Bay Area Thread. Post your finds here! [Re: angryshroom]
    #6323895 -

angryshroom said:
I've taken up smoking cigs and drinking keystone light. My mullet has grown out, and I some how lost 3 teeth. My truck broke down in my front yard, and I started taking it apart, but, I ran out of money so I started selling the tires and random body parts....


You should be writing Country tunes!

I might like to join a hunt too, I'm not so sure about the loveseat thing, but I NEED to go hunting. It's been five years, (since I moved from Seattle to LA) :frown: and It's starting to kill my soul to not get out and do some hunting.


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"Humanity is entering into a time of consequences" ---
- Winston Churchill

Edited by mattso (12/01/06 10:13 AM)

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let it rain [Re: mattso]
    #6325182 -

as a newbie, I was excited about my Peninsula finds, about 2 dozen mature cyanescens over three forays, most in the same general location two weeks ago. But today I found nada. I had hoped that that day of rain last weekend would have resulted in a new flush. But all species seem to have remained largely dormant these last two weeks. I wonder whether the more successful hunters on this thread ever have days like this.

I guess it would take more than an inch or so of rain to produce results? I haven't much time for forays, and it requires about an hour drive each way to reach likely locaions, and I certainly feel guilty about dumping all that carbon into the air if I get no inspiration from the experience.

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Re: let it rain [Re: WilhelmFink]
    #6325482 -

oh yes, it's dry out there all over the bay area..many places where I know there's mushrooms, there's nothing, but i stick my finger down there and the mycelium is healthy and just at the surface ready to pop.

this is micro climate season where only the shady spots might have something. Here's you can see a wide range of various states of dryness..some are nearly shriveled.. also one odd neat looking mushroom if anybody knows what it is



Edited by auweia (12/01/06 07:57 PM)

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Re: let it rain [Re: auweia]
    #6325541 -

auweia said:
also one odd neat looking mushroom if anybody knows what it is





It is a Peziza, likely Peziza vesiculosa. Other possibilties are P. petersii or P. repanda.


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Re: let it rain [Re: auweia]
    #6325871 -

in the my local area i now have a few patches and i have also found som scatered lone guys in the shade just like you said.
i even found a few guys growing up through an iris plant :whoa:


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LIsten to lthis story Please help me! [Re: notapillow]
    #6328459 -

Well Up here in Humbolt The Patches I've found are all new ones,None Of the ones I Know about are not popping yet,But I came acrosse this One Patch which Was Really dried Out,There were no Pins,But about 30-40 Dried,/20-30 Rotten.Ok Heres' the Story,I walkking along around the Outside Of a NationWide Well Known Department Store thats on the Bay,and there is a couple LawnCrew People,Looking like Decent Cool,Kinda hippieish.One guy aproached me and Said Looking for mushrooms,Seeming too be cool,I say ya ,seen any?The guy said on the other side of the Lot by the fence,But he said that he thought they were Cyans,But they weren't wavy,So he wasn't sure about them So I chatted a couple of minutes,Then I headed over to were he told me,I found the Patch with in 2 minutes.Like I Said no pins,Very dried,The guy had even pick most of them and tossed them down,They were bruised blue,Kinda spoty blue on cap,Stems were Blue/Blackened,Some smaller shrooms hadspores dryed on Cap give it a werid appearnce,They didn't look to much like cyans,Just as big as I seen cyans get ,from 1,2 or3 inches acrooss cap.Cap Had inverted center on a couple,Broad complex,kinda dome like,but oviously blue,I think they might be CyanFriscosa LIke I said I have Finds still,But Dam G/f Deleted my Pictures,From Computer,and Cam,Any way to get them back from the computer HardDrive,Heree are some Pics I did get a Chance to post of some cyans.enjoy any help would br good,









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I'm in a Magical Mushroom land!

Edited by OregonBluesGil (12/02/06 08:35 PM)

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Re: LIsten to lthis story Please help me! [Re: OregonBluesGil]
    #6328502 -

Oregon, yes, I've seen the same thing. Alot of folks just don't know. I guess once you know, then you know, then it's OK, but if you don't know yet, it can get really frustrating.

I remember the first time I saw them, I was the same way..They turned blue, but they were not wavy like the cyans I've seen for so long. WTF?. When I first found them I too threw them out. At the time, I didn't even have internet, much less this board. But then I started seeing them closer and closer to normal cyan patches, and it drove me batty. None of the books had anything close so one day after about a year of this, I finally ate one..Then I knew, and never needed to question it again..that was 2001

Here's a theoretical question. Suppose DNA testing proves these are cyans, but are simply morphing into a different shape sometimes.

well then the ID key would need to be updated, so would this help or make it more confusing? I'm trying to think like a beginner here. Cyans are relatively easy to ID once you get past the other ones shaped the same, but these are a little tougher to ID. Maybe site like MSSF will have to add a supplement someday

well anyway, good to hear from Eureka..I used to live up there long ago..Your description actually gives me hope because it tells me it's still a little early even up there.

this is one big difference between california and the PNW..We barely even started yet...seasons seem to be starting later and later everywhere now

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Re: LIsten to lthis story Please help me! [Re: auweia]
    #6328594 -

Yeah thats true,Ive Picked all the the till april 20th lastt Season,good wet,shady spot,And another thing about those Psilocybes I found they kind of grew in tight clusters of 5-8. Last Season on the Jetty I picked Cyans And I now Think Cyanfriscosa,Because I would Find regular Cyans,and Back Then I thought Super Cyans,Which were much larger then some of the cyans,But again I remember some of the Larger weren't Wavy,but more rounded,Anyways If Cyans and Azures Can Grow together in Astoria,Or Is it Possible for Cyans,and Cyanfriscosa to grow together,Yes Most Likely They are only a Variated Cyan


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I'm in a Magical Mushroom land!

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Re: LIsten to lthis story Please help me! [Re: OregonBluesGil]
    #6328643 -

went to the fair today and it was your usaul crowd. Found some fibs near the fair and showed some newbie what they looked liked and gave the ones i found to him.
I have got great news. My project from last year where i mixed 25cc's of lc with a water and filled a spray bottle and squirted areas in the park worked. Fibs are in the ggp where i had sprayed solution. Here is a pic of some of the finds. Fibs on the left



As for the fair here is a rundown
What I learned at the fair.
1. Every hippie/dirtbag/burnout claims to be the first person to find a new species including the fibs. I have met three different people that said they found fibs first and they were the ones that showed stamets the sample for an id about 4 years ago.

2. The fair is a great place for these burnouts to talk about the only thing they know about and that is tripping or how to make outdoor patches stronger by adding phalaris hulls.

3. There are transgender/ sex change members in the mssf. Women with goatees. ƒ¼

4. Shroomery lingo does not fly there. Many people got laughed at including the dude from erowid for calling them friscosas. Friscosas is not an official name so using it at an i.d. booth or in front of the head of mycology isn¡¦t going to fly.

5. Scott tells everybody that cyans grow under eucalyptus trees but this is just because he wants you to look there so that you won¡¦t invade his patches.

6. Contrary to popular belief wood lovers are not always introduced by man. Their reproductive systems work just fine.

7. It is also ¡§hip¡¨ to talk about psilocybes at the fair but make sure you know the correct pronunciation when talking about it or else you will lose all credibility. Just to clear things up with the noobes it¡¦s pronounced sil-ah-so-be

8. You can buy a portabella kit that will produce 4 pounds of ports for 28 bucks or you can buy a pound of fresh ports for 5 bucks. It is cheaper to buy 4 pounds of fresh ports at $20 then it is to buy the kit. The girls at the mushroompeople booth were hot.

I had a good time there and I talked to hongomeester for a bit but this pretty much sums it up. Anyone else have anything to add?


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Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread

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Re: LIsten to lthis story Please help me! [Re: tahoe]
    #6328717 -

does this mean you won't be there next year, or even tomorrow, tahoe?

tahoe said:
went to the fair today and it was your usaul crowd. Found some fibs near the fair and showed some newbie what they looked liked and gave the ones i found to him.
I have got great news. My project from last year where i mixed 25cc's of lc with a water and filled a spray bottle and squirted areas in the park worked. Fibs are in the ggp where i had sprayed solution. Here is a pic of some of the finds. Fibs on the left



As for the fair here is a rundown
What I learned at the fair.
1. Every hippie/dirtbag/burnout claims to be the first person to find a new species including the fibs. I have met three different people that said they found fibs first and they were the ones that showed stamets the sample for an id about 4 years ago.

2. The fair is a great place for these burnouts to talk about the only thing they know about and that is tripping or how to make outdoor patches stronger by adding phalaris hulls.

3. There are transgender/ sex change members in the mssf. Women with goatees. ƒ¼

4. Shroomery lingo does not fly there. Many people got laughed at including the dude from erowid for calling them friscosas. Friscosas is not an official name so using it at an i.d. booth or in front of the head of mycology isn¡¦t going to fly.

5. Scott tells everybody that cyans grow under eucalyptus trees but this is just because he wants you to look there so that you won¡¦t invade his patches.

6. Contrary to popular belief wood lovers are not always introduced by man. Their reproductive systems work just fine.

7. It is also ¡§hip¡¨ to talk about psilocybes at the fair but make sure you know the correct pronunciation when talking about it or else you will lose all credibility. Just to clear things up with the noobes it¡¦s pronounced sil-ah-so-be

8. You can buy a portabella kit that will produce 4 pounds of ports for 28 bucks or you can buy a pound of fresh ports for 5 bucks. It is cheaper to buy 4 pounds of fresh ports at $20 then it is to buy the kit. The girls at the mushroompeople booth were hot.

I had a good time there and I talked to hongomeester for a bit but this pretty much sums it up. Anyone else have anything to add?


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Re: LIsten to lthis story Please help me! [Re: tahoe]
    #6328758 -

i am fairly sure cyans grow from eucalyptus kernels too, but all 5 of my patches were eucalyptus chips and dirt. whos to say they couldnt grow from a fallen branch or kernel like that of alder and beech?

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Re: LIsten to lthis story Please help me! [Re: auweia]
    #6328761 -

oh, i will be there next year but once a year is enough. Cant make it tomorrow. If there was wetter weather then i would have considered a 2 dayer but not now. It is worth a trip to the fair.


--------------------
Stop experimenting half way through your first grow. Grow it to maturity, watch it, learn from it. Do this a few times then experiment with different ideas and figure out what works best for you.


My Legacy
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22140987#22140987

Teh=The
I need to proofread

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Re: Microscopic features [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #6329201 -

quote: 'What we see in California IS NOT the Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa that Stametes and Guzman described from Washington state. Guzman is right about California "cyanofibrillosa" being pretty much identical microscopically to Ps. cyanescens.'

A few points here that Id make. Firstly I wasnt aware that Guzman had actually suggested that Californian cyanofibrillosa was microscopically (I assume you mean in reference to cystidial forms?) to Ps.cyanescens.
Id also like to ask where your specimens of Ps.azurescens that were microscopically identical to Ps.cyanescens came from, because ive viewed quite a few and in all there were marked differences.

quote ' The problem is, so is Ps. azurescens. And Ps. azurescens and Ps. cyanescens are even interfertile in the lab according to a recent paper I read. So a good case could be made that the three are essentially the same species. On the other hand, they maintain distinct populations with distinct macromorphological features even in geographically overlapping ranges. Hence, a case could be made that these populations are not interbreeding in nature and are therefore on their own evolutionary trajectory – which is as valid a concept of "species" as we have at present.'

Id like you to please refer me to this paper - Im only aware of the work that demonstrated NO compatibility between Ps.cyanescens amd Ps.azurescens and based on the significant macroscopic differences between the two it would be hard to argue that they were indeed cross compatible.
On the other hand stable phenotypes found within a similar geographic range does not automatically signify specification. Id quote Chang and Mills work on Ps.eucalypta and Ps.australiana as examples of that fact.
Its just as likely that they were particularly strong phenotypical forms and Id use Ps.subaeruginosa as an example. The wavy capped form whichis identical to Ps.cyanescens is cross compatible with other forms that look much more like Ps.azurescens, yet the wavy-capped phenotype is a stable expression that is passed down through spore to the next generation. Work that out... Other than this one quite significant characteristic (and a different cap colour, size and shape, its microscopically identical to the other forms).

quote: 'I have not found the above to be the case, so its a valid identifying feature, at least for species that aren't closely related. Ps. stuntzii, Ps. cyanescens, and Ps. semilanceata all have distinct cheilocystidial shapes, even if they're all fairly subtle variations on "lageniform".'

Then if this were the case, why are you guys having such an issue identifying this Bay psilocybe? Surely you would be able to discern these 'subtle' cheilocystidial forms.


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Re: Microscopic features [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #6329839 -

ahhh bluemeanie

it's nice to read posts on this subject by someone who actually knows what they're talking about :smirk:

tahoe said:
1.  Every hippie/dirtbag/burnout claims to be the first person to find a new species including the fibs. I have met three different people that said they found fibs first and they were the ones that showed stamets the sample for an id about 4 years ago. 
2. The fair is a great place for these burnouts to talk about the only thing they know about and that is tripping or how to make outdoor patches stronger by adding phalaris hulls.
4.  Shroomery lingo does not fly there. Many people got laughed at including the dude from erowid for calling them friscosas. Friscosas is not an official name so using it at an i.d. booth or in front of the head of mycology isn¡¦t going to fly.



:lol: :lol: :lol:

so I'm kind of curious, did they go so far as to use an official name for them at the fair?  did they call them P. cyanofibrillosa? :smirk:

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > Mushroom Hunting and Identification
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