redtailedhawk said:

I am wondering if tribal societies truly needed harsh rules to keep their members in check. For one a lot of tribes do not have the notion of ‘I’ – they only use ‘we’. If a member of a tribe has a problem, the tribe has a problem and if the tribe has a problem, each individual of that tribe has one as well. The level of individualization is nowhere near to what we have in the west, where each individual sees his needs as primary and the needs of the society as secondary.

I believe the need for control and punishment-based laws is an invention of modern civilization. I’m not saying tribal societies did not punish their members when they broke some major taboo, but they certainly did not need a part of the population to be in constant armed control over the rest of the population, which is a situation we seem to take for normal here in the west (police and the military).

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Icelander said:

I don't think you get where I am coming from here. In idea conditions of plenty no strictness or punishment necessary. But if there is scarcity then there is competition for resources even within the group. Those who take more than their share are punished if they are the weakest also. The strongest use there position to gain security for themselves and maybe their offspring. See where this could lead? Once scarcity is over the old survival programs remain as patterns. Fear of famine becomes prime mover and laws and rulers are set in place. Powertripping starts in ernest.

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I've been reading some more articles on this topic and I was surprised to find out most of the authors and researchers agree with your view, Ice.

"According to DeMeo's (1998) thesis, some 6,000 years ago in the Saharasian region of the world, humanity experienced an overwhelming trauma, from which we never recovered. ... experienced a significant drought which "would have been a major, and probably the only major mechanism which would lead to famine and starvation, given the normally self-reliant condition of early peoples" (DeMeo, 1998, p. 78)...

In a haunting study of the Ik people in northeastern Africa, Colin Turnbull (1972) documented the devastating consequences when an entire group of people are ravaged by drought, famine, aggression, and forced displacement. "Under the stress to which this society was subject, all the trimmings were shed, everything that was not directly functional to the problem of [individual] survival was abandoned" (Turnbull, 1972, p. 178).

Human values such as trust, cooperation, commitment, affection, and empathy were no longer 'functional to the problem of survival' and were thus discarded in favor of a hyperindividualism that spelled the end to their traditional tribal ways (DeMeo, 1998; Turnbull, 1972)." --Trauma & Civilization: http://www.avoiceforfreedom.com/Final1.html

Fuck. 

hot48yearolds said:

I never said that you specifically were trying to blame.
I can tell by your posts that you wouldnt do that.

But many idealistic people who think that there can one day be
complete peace and love throughout humanity tend to blame the
insititutions.

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I agree.