Home | Community | Message Board


Everything Mushrooms
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop: Pink Floyd

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
free will and insanity
    #2282738 - 01/29/04 04:17 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

This is an essay by Derrick Jensen which appeared in the May 2003 issue of Adbusters. I think he makes an incredible point and I urge everyone to read it even though it's somewhat long. Tell me what your reaction is.


It is almost impossible to talk about free will without talking about insanity. Most of us are by now, of course, almost completely insane.

Force is an expensive and inefficient way to exploit. This is as true on the grand social level as it is on the familial. From the perspective of those in power, it's more desirable to get those you exploit to participate in their own victimization.

One way this can happen is through mystification, where an exploiter convinces victims that the violence is their fault. The abusive father, for example, might tell his children he would not have hit them had they sufficiently cleaned the dishes. This serves the function of causing the children to focus on cleaning the dishes instead of attending to the inexcusable violence of their father. Perhaps more importantly, it convinces them that if they can only be good enough at reading and responding to their abuser's everchanging wants, they might not get beaten. The question as it relates to free will becomes: if they clean the dishes obsessively and perform every other obeisance, all without him beating them anymore, are they then doing these of their own free will?

We can ask similar questions about the actions of black people facing the threat of lynching. If you are a poor black farmer, having seen your neighbor hanging long-necked from a bridge, if you give up your crops or farmland to white farmers, are you doing so of your own free will?

In 1957 in Montgomery, Alabama, four Ku Klux Klan members kidnapped Willie Edwards, Jr., beat him, took him to a bridge, and forced him at gunpoint to jump. Faced with the choice between certainly being shot and possibly surviving the fall, did Willie Edwards, Jr., jump of his own free will?

Note that we've slid across some sort of boundary here, from victims convinced of their own culpability to the elimination of choice such that it actually becomes in the best interests of the victims to choose the lesser of two very great evils. They are now not merely convinced they should participate in their own victimization; they are forced to.

There are extreme political ramifications to this reduction in choice. One of the most brilliant things the Nazis did was to coopt rationality, and to coopt hope. They created circumstances such that at every step of the way it was in the Jews' rational best interests not to resist. Would you rather get an ID card, or resist and possibly get killed? Would you rather take a journey on a cattle car, or resist and possibly get killed? At each step, choices have been reduced such that the victims participate "of their own free will."

I experienced the process not long ago, with consequences much less severe. An airport security agent ran her fingers beneath the waistband of my pants. I asked what she was doing.

She responded, "This is for your safety and the safety of others."

"You putting your hand inside my pants doesn't make anyone safer," I said.

"Flying is a privilege, not a right. If you don't like it, stay home."

I began to disagree, and she motioned to a nearby cop. I had a plane to catch, and so I had a choice: I could make a scene and possibly get arrested, or I could get the hell out of Austin, Texas. I got the hell out of Austin, Texas.

But to choose, to really exercise free will, you must also have the opportunity to not choose. Willie Edwards Jr did not have the opportunity to not choose. Nor, for the most part, do most of us. Would you like to vote Republican or Democrat? (Note that even not voting does not protect you from the outcomes of the vote.) Would you like to work for ibm or Microsoft? Try leaving the wage economy and becoming a hunter-gatherer. Try, as a community, not allowing those in power to have access to - that is, exploit - your landbase, and then the rest of us can take bets on how long before the tanks roll in, and how long until it's you hanging long-necked from a bridge.



Before we move to the terminal stage of this process there's one other condition we need to talk about. One of the most common and necessary steps taken by an abuser in order to control a victim is to monopolize the victim's perception. That is one reason abusers cut off victims from family and friends: so that in time victims will have no standard other than the abusers' by which to judge the abusers' worldviews and behavior. Behavior that would otherwise seem extraordinarily bizarre (How crazy is it to rape one's own child? How crazy is it to toxify the air you breathe?) can then become in the victim's mind (and even more sadly, heart) normalized. No outside influence must be allowed to break the spell. If the abuser is able to mediate all information that reaches the victim, the victim will no longer be able to conceptualize that there is any other way to be. At this point the abuser will have achieved more or less total control.

This is, of course, the point we have reached as a culture. Civilization has achieved a completely unprecedented and nearly perfect monopolization of our perception, at least for those of us in the industrialized world. Nearly all of our sensory input is mediated by our fellow civilized. I'm typing these words sitting in a manufactured chair staring at a manufactured computer screen, listening to the hum of a manufactured computer fan. To my left are manufactured shelves of manufactured books, written by human beings. Civilized, literate human beings, who write in English (languages, many of them indigenous, are being destroyed as quickly as all other forms of diversity, and to as disastrous an effect). To my right a window leads to the darkened outside and reflects back to me my uncombed dark hair surrounding the blur of my own face. I'm wearing mass-produced clothes, and mass-produced slippers. I do, however, have a cat on my lap. All sensory inputs save the cat originate in civilized humans, and even the cat is domesticated.

Stop. Think about it. Every sensation I have comes from one source: civilization. When you finish this paragraph, put down the magazine for a few moments, and check out your own surroundings. What can you see, hear, smell, feel, taste that does not originate in or is mediated by civilized human beings? Frogs singing on a Sounds of Nature CD don't count.

This is all very strange. Stranger still - and extraordinarily revealing of the degree to which we've not only accepted this artificially imposed isolation, but have actually turned our insanity into a perceived good - is the way we've made a fetish and religion (and science, for that matter, and business) of attempting to define ourselves as separate from - even in opposition to - the rest of nature. Civilization isolates all of us, ideologically and physically, from the source of all life. We do not believe trees have anything to say to us, nor stars, nor coyotes, nor even our dreams. We have been convinced that the world is silent save for civilized humans.



Try this: take a moment and attempt to conceptualize nonownership of land. That is, an end, abrupt or otherwise, to the right of a few to force other people to pay for the right to actually exist on the planet (it's called rent). Having been fully enculturated, perhaps you cannot even imagine nonownership of land, or see how the power to control access to land is maintained through a combination of social convention and force. You may, if you are a member of the police or military, or just a good citizen, kill to protect the right of land ownership, even to your own detriment. This is how it can also begin to make sense that those in power have the right to toxify the planet. If you've been sufficiently enculturated, you may refuse to recognize that there has ever been any other way to be, and you may, once again, oppose those who oppose this toxification. This is how we can come to believe that production is more important than human or nonhuman life.

You can list your favorite delusion.

Free will at this point becomes almost meaningless, because by now the victims participate of their own free will - having long-since lost touch with what free will might be. Indeed, they can be said to no longer have any meaningful will at all. Their will has been broken. Of course. That's the point. Now, they are workers. They are productive members of this great and benevolent structure of civilization that brings good to all it touches. They are happy, even if this happiness requires routine chemical assistance. There is no longer any need for force, because the people have been fully metabolized into the system, have become self-regulating, self-policing.

Welcome to the end of the world.

Fortunately, however, there do still exist people - mainly the poor, people from nonindustrialized nations, and the indigenous - who still have primary connections to the physical world. And fortunately, also, the physical world still exists, and all of us can at the very least reach out to touch trees still standing in steel and concrete cages, we can see plants poking up through sidewalks, breaking cement barriers that don't quite keep them from feeling the sun. I would hope we can learn from these plants and ourselves break through our barriers. I would hope we can see or feel our way to remembering what it means to be a free human being - we certainly must remember deep deep in our flesh and bones and organs - and to remember the joy that can come from standing on our own hind legs, from saying No! I do not know if free will can be entirely eradicated. I do know that it remains in some of us, as crazy as the system makes us all, as much as we have come to tolerate.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMrGrib
Stranger

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 181
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2282773 - 01/29/04 04:37 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Can you summarize the bullet points of what you just said?--I don't feel like reading all that right now. Incidentally, how's the weather in Vancouver? I'm thinking of moving there someday.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: MrGrib]
    #2282802 - 01/29/04 04:57 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Summarize? I really can't do justice to the article in a summary, I suppose I could outline it though.

The basic idea is that forcing people to act against thier will is difficult, its a lot easier to find a way to make them enforce thier own victimization and think they have power over thier own actions. He goes on to demonstrate exactly how he came to this conclusion. I suggest reading the essay, its quite accessible.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMrGrib
Stranger

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 181
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2282853 - 01/29/04 05:25 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

sounds similar to a chapter in a favorite book of mine by Raymond Smullyan, The Tao is Silent. The chapter is a dialogue between a mortal and God, regarding free will. It's quite clever.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGrav
 User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2283074 - 01/29/04 08:33 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Great article.
Makes a good point.
It's always pretty nuts to think about how we ammassed all this stuff in the last couple centuries after millenias of nothing but hunters and farmers.

The only thing I might add would be to remove the sense of nasty boogeymen holding us prisoner. I think this culture is too impersonal for that kind of direct relationship.

Here's something else I just thought of: Aren't a number of civilized countries pretty much held at gunpoint to advance their industry... because the alternative is becoming primitive and vulnerable to a greater technological attack from a competing nation. We either turn these gears as fast as we can or we get overrun by Chinamen. I wonder which is a bigger motivator; power or fear????


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblekaiowas
mndfrayze'speppet urme
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,498
Loc: oz
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2283304 - 01/29/04 11:07 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"Having been fully enculturated, perhaps you cannot even imagine nonownership of land, or see how the power to control access to land is maintained through a combination of social convention and force. You may, if you are a member of the police or military, or just a good citizen, kill to protect the right of land ownership, even to your own detriment. This is how it can also begin to make sense that those in power have the right to toxify the planet. If you've been sufficiently enculturated, you may refuse to recognize that there has ever been any other way to be, and you may, once again, oppose those who oppose this toxification. This is how we can come to believe that production is more important than human or nonhuman life"

:smile:  :thumbup:

this is exactly what I have bee thinking about over and over this past month.  it's like how crazy are we to cut off our own oxygen supply.  and how can a human determine a pricetag on our earth.

you know I was thinking about littering.  i don't agree    with it, but isn't pouring concrete on the ground littering? 

and besides who ever said the ways of old were worse off.  There's been things that can't be explained that happened thousands of years ago, and it involved humans. 

I sometimes wonder about what really went on in the past.  it's so hard to really "know"


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineShroomerious
OO
Male

Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2283686 - 01/29/04 01:31 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I fully disagree with this article. If I could choose anything for my favorite delusion it would be Mr.Jensen's conclusion. By taking some individual ,carefully chosen of course, situations like die by a gun shot or by getting hanged, or the example with the kids who get beaten or who would one vote or about the ownership of land he reached a conclusion which would be correct if the only things one would experience in his life were get beaten and wash the dishes, having to vote, own a bit of land and getting hanged or any other specific well-suited for that false conclusion example.

People have free will. There are not only two ways to go!There are the hard ways and the easy ways and the medium-hard and medium-easy ways. There is infinite variation. Sometimes though in life one does not get much choise.....well....so what? Yesterday I ate a bitter orange. That doesn't mean that all oranges are bitter. Sometimes life is hard, we all have to face it. There is nothing more to it.

Also, the steel and concrete cages and the cement barriers that he is talking about are his media from which he tries to abuse the truth. All these things were and are created because there was a reason to be there. Sometimes it is too much and it is like that because it serves many economical and what else purposes that are obviously wrong. But you can't put "everything in the same basket" as we say in my country.

If there is one word that characterizes this article is rabble-rousing. Finally I think that this article has some good points but only if chosen with an extremely individual manner.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2284477 - 01/29/04 05:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

maybe luvdemlies (w/ apology to alex123) is *wrong*.. and life is really is a balance of liberty vs. property...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 12 years, 25 days
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2284716 - 01/29/04 06:49 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
I fully disagree with this article. If I could choose anything for my favorite delusion it would be Mr.Jensen's conclusion. By taking some individual ,carefully chosen of course, situations like die by a gun shot or by getting hanged, or the example with the kids who get beaten or who would one vote or about the ownership of land he reached a conclusion which would be correct if the only things one would experience in his life were get beaten and wash the dishes, having to vote, own a bit of land and getting hanged or any other specific well-suited for that false conclusion example.





I disagree whole-hartedely with what you say. We're all gears in the machine society is. We're born in a specific region on the planet Earth. This region comes with its own economical and sociological factors. You grow up, you finish school (if schooling is available in your home region) and what comes next is the choice to become and adult or refuse to grow up.

This is the first real, fundamental choice a person has to make in his life. Artists make the second choice. Business tycoons make a go-between choice, i.e. the choice of doing everything they need to do to get by, but indulging in alcohol/drug consumption, shopping, or orgies. Most people that are considered to be succesful make the first choice, which also entails giving up the exploration of the inner world of fantasy, chosing society's reality over an idealised yet possibly workable reality.
This first choice makes one ask oneself this question: do I want to live in the society I was born in? I'll ignore the affirmatory answer, since it's the least interesting one to discuss here.

Answering this question with a definate "No!", and creating a strategy, there are a few options. Suppose you aren't dissatisfied with a consumer economy, but simply want more legal options, you could move to a country that doesn't, for instance, wage a war on drugs. Problem solved. The same goes for religious freedom, freedom of speech, economic climate, etc. The obstacles you'll be encountering are of a legislatory nature, such as "Will my government allow me to migrate?", "Will the host country allow me to immigrate and if not, what do I need to do to get in?".
Next: you are dissatisfied with a consumer economy, possibly capitalism as a whole and the farce democracy has become. You're thinking along the lines of a commune, starting your own farm in a quiet, fertile area or the hunter-gatherer society mentioned in the article. This choice is a lot tougher to persue. If you think it isn't, you're ignoring the simple facts of life.
To start a commune/farm/hunter-gatherer society, you'll need a strip or possibly large area of land. This means you'll have to get hold of some major cash. So you have the cash? Where are you going to be able to buy a piece of land that the local government will let you run like a small country, with its own laws, no income or property tax, and so on?
Right, so you say you'll get that done too. Next on the list: skilled laborers. What you need to support a small economy and the survival of a small group, are craftsmen. You need to make your own clothes, hunt or breed your own animals, grow or gather your own crops, create your own tools, build your houses, tend to the community's health, etc. How do you train the people to join your community? Who can teach you about smithing, pottery, basic weaving, creating paper, hunting, bowyering, and so forth? How will you pay them? How much time will you need?
If you build your commune and still pay property tax, you're not getting what you were striving for, you haven't left society behind, because it's still making money off your back. If you don't pay your property tax or follow local laws, you're fined, incarcerated, or worse.

The only conclusion you can draw is, the only real choice you can make is to stick within the confines of society, because it's present around the globe. You're limited in your choice because those in power can destroy your entire life if you don't follow along.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinebradtaylor
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 33
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2284960 - 01/29/04 08:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Stone said:
The only conclusion you can draw is, the only real choice you can make is to stick within the confines of society, because it's present around the globe. You're limited in your choice because those in power can destroy your entire life if you don't follow along.




First of all, it's not really "those in power" who are forcing these choices on you, it's the collective power, society, and not those in charge. I think you and Shroomerious aren't really in disagreement, you're talking about slightly different things. Even with the above statement you have a choice to make, one of the choices(conformity) just happens to be easier and probably better. Free will is still somewhere in there. I gather that you're saying we're practically forced into this choice, which is true, but that doesn't eliminate free will entirely. Anyways, I don't think either of you fully or whole-hartedely disagrees with the other.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineFrog
Warrior
Female User Gallery

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: bradtaylor]
    #2284975 - 01/29/04 08:34 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think they disagree with each other radically and I declare sabers at dawn...



--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineNiamhNyx
I'm NOT a 'he'
Female User Gallery

Registered: 09/01/02
Posts: 3,198
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2285195 - 01/29/04 09:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you, Alan, for arguing that point before I had the opportunity too. I'd have a difficult time trying to say it any better than that so I'll throw my support behind your statements.

As for your statement Shroomerious, if I could chose my favourite delusion it's that we're all empowered by and free within the culture we've been born into. Wouldn't all the little evils of the world be so much easier to deal with if only they were countered by the notion that we all are completely in control of our own destinies? In a sense we are, we do what we can with the choices we have, but when the choice is between compliance and death is there really a choice at all?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineShroomerious
OO
Male

Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2285429 - 01/29/04 11:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Do you understand that you are talking about individual occasions?
Also I fully disagree with you Alan, I believe there are millions of choices but as I said in certain occasions they are hard. If you feel there is no choise it is because of your character.There always is a choice. There is your choice and the choice of the man with the gun, he has the choice not to kill you too. You both have many choices of which to choose. But in this occasion he has the gun. What did you expect? There will be hard times in life....no choice...no I do not agree with you at all.-


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAlan Stone
Corpus

Registered: 11/23/02
Posts: 986
Loc: Ten feet up
Last seen: 12 years, 25 days
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2286170 - 01/30/04 04:14 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

How can you reduce the inability to choose certain options to a character flaw? You can try all you want, but funding your own private estate with private laws will require cash, and to all likelihood even military power. An impossible choice is not merely a hard one.
Mind you, I've never consciously stated in my post that you have no freedom of choice left, you do. The amount of choices you have are severly limited, to the point of having only one real choice. You can still make the other choices, but they'll let you loose out in the long run.

Quote:

First of all, it's not really "those in power" who are forcing these choices on you, it's the collective power, society, and not those in charge.



Society has no real, physical power other than that of government. The government ARE those in power. The general population has no power whatsoever, since each member has one vote, is but one cog in the giant machine. Society's other forms of power - conformity, taboos, religious dogma, ethics - can be overcome by employing your mind and persevering.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePsilocybeingzz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Re: free will and insanity [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2286265 - 01/30/04 04:52 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

did you get this from the one called


Mad pride\Mad world
I have that copy and its fucking great!!!

I love every article in that issue! :thumbup:

Adbusters is fucking awsome

ADBUSTERS


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineShroomerious
OO
Male

Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2286639 - 01/30/04 11:09 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The people are the ones that with their vote elect those that are in charge. If people had a different character they wouldn't have elected Bush, who is merely a puppet, they would have shown their opinion. But all I see in the campains is people cheering. I don't get what you're saying. People mad a mistake i.e. they voted Bush; now look what happened.

I come from a country with a long history of revolutions. This was what everybody said then, people have no power...well if ALL the people would stand up for what they believed is correct, no one could have the power to disagree. If all the planet had the same opinion you have, there would be no revolutions nor nothing. I believe in democracy. If the majority of people voted Bush and I didn't, I obviously must try something else.

I believe that people have the power. What seems to be the problem is what the majority of people think. I find your opinion extremely numb and again I say that if this was the opinion of the black people, the people under tyrrany like there would be no changes.

I don't know if your opinion represents the majority of the people in this planet, or in your city or in your social surroundings but this is not the opinion that one should have. It kills the passion to live your life. This numbness kills life. I never accepted it and I never will. When I do, I will put a gun to my head, after hearing my favorite song from Pink Floyd, and do nothing I guess. Just be miserable for the rest of my life.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2286969 - 01/30/04 01:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The only conclusion you can draw is, the only real choice you can make is to stick within the confines of society, because it's present around the globe. You're limited in your choice because those in
power can destroy your entire life if you don't follow along.


first of all..i should point out the obvious fallacy of embodying the collective society as [an elite class of] "those in power"...the popular acceptance of this fallacy as fact is a symptom of bad govt..which has been "elected" by ppl who didnt vote when it still made a difference.. ie. via the excercise of free will...

second of all..given that reality..those in power will destroy your entire life either way...the only decision to be made is whether or not you will entertain their sadistic fantasies in the process...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (01/30/04 02:38 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineShroomerious
OO
Male

Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2286996 - 01/30/04 02:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

those in power will destroy your entire life either way...the only decision to be made is whether or not you will entertain their sadistic fantasies in the process...




That "loser" type of attitude won't get us nowhere. Read about all these revolutions that were made. With that numb posture of course you have only one real decision.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2287101 - 01/30/04 02:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomerious said:
Quote:

those in power will destroy your entire life either way...the only decision to be made is whether or not you will entertain their sadistic fantasies in the process...




That "loser" type of attitude won't get us nowhere. Read about all these revolutions that were made. With that numb posture of course you have only one real decision.




on the contrary..the original poster asserted that we have no choice but to bow to their will...and im saying we do...revolutions are launched when enough ppl realize that their fucked anyway..and decide not to further entertain the sadisms of their rulers...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineShroomerious
OO
Male

Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: free will and insanity [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2287245 - 01/30/04 03:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yes but out of revolutions comes a result. In Greece we had dictatorship that was backed up by you, the Americans for 7 years and then we made a revolution ans said. Freedom or Death. And we won our freedom. And looked at us now. Do we seem like we're fucked? No way. There was a result, it was a hard choice but the results were satisfactory.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop: Pink Floyd

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* RUSH Rocks & Free Will Rules! gettinjiggywithit 319 1 08/02/04 07:52 PM
by barfightlard
* The existence of Free Will is far from certain
( 1 2 3 4 ... 9 10 all )
BrainChemicals
10,956 182 04/26/07 03:34 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Free will is bullshit.
( 1 2 3 4 ... 19 20 all )
Phluck 23,861 380 01/16/07 06:57 PM
by Brugman
* Free Will and its Origin
( 1 2 all )
exclusive58 1,145 20 08/08/05 11:54 PM
by Shroomism
* Victim Mentality Anonymous 3,233 2 11/13/04 09:48 PM
by question_for_joo
* Big Questions (comments on free will)
( 1 2 3 all )
Attackgecko 3,089 49 04/23/07 12:23 AM
by Phred
* Im Back!!! and still convinced free will is an illusion ;)
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
ZenGecko 10,996 148 04/23/07 12:22 AM
by PhanTomCat
* Free Will and Determinism...
( 1 2 3 all )
dr0mni 4,057 56 06/29/10 02:24 AM
by blinkybill

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
3,777 topic views. 1 members, 4 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
The Spore Depot
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.036 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 18 queries.