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 redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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 when you absolutely know something  [Re: spud]
#4959070 - 11/20/05 08:19 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Probably Moses today would be committed.
that magic occurred that far back in time is indisputable, no witnesses from either side can vouch for anything.
what does manage to come accross consistently is that experiences which have no good explanation happenned and some particular story was being vehemently stuck to:
"moses talked to a burning bush, just don't argue with him..."
"moses can't exactly tell us what he was doing, but suddenly and undeniably god was talking to him,... yes of course it was THE god... he became furious with me when I questioned him on this... yes very very angry, and confused, yes,
yes worried too, like he had made some kind of promise (to (them...))...
(it all sounds quite familiar to me, just this morning in the bath I was...)
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 _  🧠 _ 
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 SketchyTX05
Beginner to theJourney
Registered: 08/11/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: it stars saddam]
#4961259 - 11/20/05 06:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
If something is not "within our realm of potential knowledge," it is quite irrelevant, no?
I like your point here. It would seem so, though, perhaps my wording was off. For something like Religion, it's hard say point blank that it can not exist, if you consider the entirety of existance. But, if you choose to live life as you see it (Which isn't wrong or bad in my mind) and make sense of the world based solely on what we can sense, it is quite simple to say God doesn't exist.
I switched from the latter thought process to the former. And, to be honest, I can still quickly remember and picture myself currently in the mind set that this (what I see) is all there is to it, simply because I know that viewpoint so well. Why else would you assume that there was something else if there hasn't been a recurring "something else" happening in our lifetimes. How strange life is to occur, and self-awareness and consiousness can only take you to such broad places.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
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Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Moonshoe]
#4961877 - 11/20/05 09:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well said. I would add that reason often becomes an idolatrous [metacognitive] belief. It accomplishes great things with space-time and linearity, with cause-effect, but is itself an obstacle to transrational apprehension. I learned from BE HERE NOW decades ago that people who denounce faith (i.e., in God) actually have faith in the rational mind and the sense data upon which is functions. The rational mind obviously does not do well with those realities which transcend its 'control.'
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 20 days
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4961900 - 11/20/05 09:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I learned from BE HERE NOW decades ago that people who denounce faith (i.e., in God) actually have faith in the rational mind and the sense data upon which is functions.
so only by breaking the shackles of reason and sense data, as well as god, can we free ourselves from faith once and for all.
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Unagipie]
#4961935 - 11/20/05 09:49 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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great thoughts from everyone.
unagipie... your a deep guy.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4961978 - 11/20/05 09:58 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I learned from BE HERE NOW decades ago that people who denounce faith (i.e., in God) actually have faith in the rational mind and the sense data upon which is functions. The rational mind obviously does not do well with those realities which transcend its 'control.'
I do not believe in the existence of god, but my faith in the rational mind is murky at best. I fancy myself to be something of an absurdist, though I admittedly do attribute a certain amount of value to logic and hard science because they seem to be consistent with the reality which I have experienced thus far.
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: it stars saddam]
#4962057 - 11/20/05 10:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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"It's almost as if the more logical we become, the further we are from forming a transhuman relationship with the divine.
It's as if we are punished for intellect. "
We ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and we were punished by explusion from paradise...
Logic hasn't necessarily brought us further from god, it's brought us further from absolutes, which is quite a paradox. The belief in materialistic-determinism logically leads to the destruction of any sensable form of morality. Logically, everything is relative...
These are old questions/problems that we've been struggling with, but I feel like it's time to move foward. We are truly in a new age of thinking and the old paradigms are being thrown out...
Science has seemingly moved us further from divinity, but I know that eventually it will lead us back to it. Remember, everything works in cycles.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: it stars saddam]
#4963150 - 11/21/05 08:08 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
I learned from BE HERE NOW decades ago that people who denounce faith (i.e., in God) actually have faith in the rational mind and the sense data upon which is functions. The rational mind obviously does not do well with those realities which transcend its 'control.'
I do not believe in the existence of god, but my faith in the rational mind is murky at best. I fancy myself to be something of an absurdist, though I admittedly do attribute a certain amount of value to logic and hard science because they seem to be consistent with the reality which I have experienced thus far.
My beliefs are somewhat akin to yours. I would call myself a Taoist or a sublimest. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: it stars saddam]
#4963348 - 11/21/05 10:07 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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If we only would believe our senses, would a blind man argue, there is no visual world ?
Open your (third) eyes and wake up (to life) !
(No, the world is not flat and not the sun circles around earth, really !)
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4963473 - 11/21/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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the blind man has much evidence that there is a visual world- by talking with people who can see, and by seeing through his remaining senses how they do things he can't, various feats that only sight could allow them to accomplish.
but if you are right, that there must always be other senses, then why stop at the 3rd eye? perhaps there's other eyes, a 4th, and 5th, etc
yet what makes you think any of these other improbable senses have anything to do with what is usually posited as being a third eye?
Quote:
(No, the world is not flat and not the sun circles around earth, really !)
this doesn't accord with the evidence, much like the existence of a third eye
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: crunchytoast]
#4963557 - 11/21/05 10:55 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
crunchytoast said:
the blind man has much evidence that there is a visual world- by talking with people who can see
You totally missed the point there. The entire point is that if every human being was totally blind from birth, then we would not consider or conceptualize the existance of a visual world, am I not correct?
Let's focus and stay on task here, people. 
 
Peace. 
--------------------
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: fireworks_god]
#4963981 - 11/21/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hehe, yes F_G
Even the world of the blinds exist. They are not exclusive from visual world and listening to both 'views' could make sense, even for the seer.
crunchy, indirect perceiving is our misery. That is why science leaves out the 'meaning'-point, which seems to still lie in the eye of the beholder, the individual 'seer'. Science has one major problem with meaning: it can't look inside the heads of the meaners, yet. There may exist ONE collective meaning behind the scenes, we don't just have the 'means' to measure it yet (as far as I know, at least).
Quite ironic in the world of the intellect transhuman perspective of knowing 
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: crunchytoast]
#4964418 - 11/21/05 02:41 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm sorry to be nit-picky, but grammatically your response does not make sense. What are you trying to say something about God? And as for faith, it is that mode of apperception which is contemplative, transcendendental and available to all people. It's central place in one's life may result in an experience of Gnosis. Certainly for me, a spontaneous experience of Gnosis, or transcendental experience, allowed me to have faith afterwards, but "...blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed." I was a 'Doubting Thomas,' now I revere the Gospel According to Thomas.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 20 days
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#4966440 - 11/21/05 11:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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markos: i was saying that faith in reason and experience makes about as much sense to me as faith in god. why is faith even necessary? faith happens when there's an absence of sincere belief, like, 'i see no evidence of god, so i have faith he exists.' furthermore, not to be nitpicky, but such transcendental knowledge doesn't seem available to me; so how could it be available to 'all people'? i was raised catholic yet despite all my prayers, etc, never encountered any evidence whatsoever of the existence of a creator.
coyote:Quote:
crunchy, indirect perceiving is our misery. That is why science leaves out the 'meaning'-point, which seems to still lie in the eye of the beholder, the individual 'seer'. Science has one major problem with meaning: it can't look inside the heads of the meaners, yet. There may exist ONE collective meaning behind the scenes, we don't just have the 'means' to measure it yet (as far as I know, at least).
i think this is entirely false. i would point you to the work of people like hubert dreyfus and walter freeman who talk about the role meaning plays in the brain. consider this: meaning may simply be an individual organism's value system, where pleasure and pain give meaning to individual stimuli.
yet some caprice of neurobiology yields no metaphysical truths. imagine, a scientist could theoretically scramble neurons any which way, yet such scrambling would have no effect on any other part of the universe, and as such could not create some metaphysical truth.
Quote:
You totally missed the point there. The entire point is that if every human being was totally blind from birth, then we would not consider or conceptualize the existance of a visual world, am I not correct?
Let's focus and stay on task here, people
on the contrary, fw, you missed my point. i addressed both readings of coyote's statement- the literal reading which addresses real blind men. but i also addressed the idea that "we may all be blind"- and that there may be senses beyond ours. as i said:
Quote:
but if you are right, that there must always be other senses, then why stop at the 3rd eye? perhaps there's other eyes, a 4th, and 5th, etc
yet what makes you think any of these other improbable senses have anything to do with what is usually posited as being a third eye?
this is an argument against the metaphorical reading of blue_coyote's argument. a simpler way of stating this would have been, "your position doesn't hold up under occam's razor". yes it is possible people are metaphysically blind- but that's just pure, idle speculation until you have some facts of some sort ("evidence") that is an example or counter-example of this theory.
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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GulGen
Old Bird
Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 307
Loc: I live in the Internet
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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 Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
#4967083 - 11/22/05 05:25 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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People like to believe in absolute truths, even when we cannot know such things. For a long time Christianity was the dominant truth in the Western world. It had all of the answers and was irrefutable. Then strict logic and science began to grow, invalidating Christian truths and proposing its own along the way that were harder to ignore. In doing so, Christianity has been slowly been getting pushed aside by science and the process continues today. Now it's becoming increasingly popular and cool to be a hardcore atheist, as zealous in the almighty power of science and rationality as the followers of any religion. In doing so, any sign of spirituality or consideration of the divine is seen as a sign of weakness to be avoided at all costs, much like if someone during the crusades were to suggest that maybe there wasn't a God after all.
Don't blame logic; blame human nature. If people would accept that there is no single, knowable, absolute truth, I suspect that they would be much closer to finding such a thing. There's the irony for ya.
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: GulGen]
#4967160 - 11/22/05 07:07 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
GulGen said:
If people would accept that there is no single, knowable, absolute truth, I suspect that they would be much closer to finding such a thing. There's the irony for ya.
= hammer + head of nail!
Having faith is NOT the same as making an assumption. Faith is knowing without certain proof. I have faith that I exist despite the complications of Cartesian doubt. Why? Well, I'm experiancing something, I don't understand it, but I have faith that this is some kind of "real". I have faith that the world makes sense despite the fact that it is full of paradoxes.
When you accept that logic does not negate paradoxes... that is faith.
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dr0mni
My Own Messiah
Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: dr0mni]
#4967162 - 11/22/05 07:09 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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it really bugs me when people accuse those with faith of being irrational... everything has a reason, even faith.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: crunchytoast]
#4967891 - 11/22/05 11:21 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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coyote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
crunchy, indirect perceiving is our misery. That is why science leaves out the 'meaning'-point, which seems to still lie in the eye of the beholder, the individual 'seer'. Science has one major problem with meaning: it can't look inside the heads of the meaners, yet. There may exist ONE collective meaning behind the scenes, we don't just have the 'means' to measure it yet (as far as I know, at least).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think this is entirely false. i would point you to the work of people like hubert dreyfus and walter freeman who talk about the role meaning plays in the brain. consider this: meaning may simply be an individual organism's value system, where pleasure and pain give meaning to individual stimuli.
yet some caprice of neurobiology yields no metaphysical truths. imagine, a scientist could theoretically scramble neurons any which way, yet such scrambling would have no effect on any other part of the universe, and as such could not create some metaphysical truth.
---
Not entirely false. I know about the neurobiological explanations which were tried on meaning and the pleasure-pain system. As for one who is hungry, an orange is only food, but it is not the same meaning for everyone here regarding an orange. We could make an intersection of all possible meanings, but that does not nescessarily lead to the ONE meaning, if there might be one behind.
If you see knowledge as pleasure in the 'meaning'-sysem of our brains, theories get very abstract. One could see an orange in thousands of ways, but how combine these, or is THE way included ?
I think, if we really could (scientifically) get all the individual motivations out of individual meanings, there could be something left in essence, like 'to be or not to be' which leads to 'universal knowledge' behind the scenes, and that is not that we can't know  This would be considered spiritual within the eyes of the beholder in our days now.
Then you ask for the metaphorical 'evidences' of my arguments considering the blind ? I like that.
How does the blind man know, what to think of all that what is TOLD to him, or INDIRECTLY been tried to convince him of the seeing world ?
If all see and one is blind... if one sees and all are blind... majorities ? For sure not. 'Blind' believing ? For sure not. He tries to 'retrace' that what is told to him, or given into his hands, and tries to relate this to a visual world. So he 'knows', without having seen.
The same for spiritual realms...
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crunchytoast
oppositional
Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,133
Loc: aporia
Last seen: 17 years, 20 days
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: BlueCoyote]
#4970557 - 11/22/05 09:51 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not entirely false. I know about the neurobiological explanations which were tried on meaning and the pleasure-pain system. As for one who is hungry, an orange is only food, but it is not the same meaning for everyone here regarding an orange. We could make an intersection of all possible meanings, but that does not nescessarily lead to the ONE meaning, if there might be one behind.
If you see knowledge as pleasure in the 'meaning'-sysem of our brains, theories get very abstract. One could see an orange in thousands of ways, but how combine these, or is THE way included ?
I think, if we really could (scientifically) get all the individual motivations out of individual meanings, there could be something left in essence, like 'to be or not to be' which leads to 'universal knowledge' behind the scenes, and that is not that we can't know This would be considered spiritual within the eyes of the beholder in our days now.
yet no individual's to be or not to be could always be the same as any other individuals, since some individuals have killed each other before, and some have even committed suicide. with such variety, there is no universal meaning here.
the brain gives rise to the possibility of infinite diversity, due to its extremely plastic nature, particularly regarding meaning. any meaning is available to some individual: consider the masochist or the anorexic, whose meaning-systems act in direct violation of the process of natural selection that evolved meaning systems.
to talk about a universal meaning shared at this level would be absurd. the only universals regarding meaning would be in its conception- for example, meaning is expressed in terms of good and bad.
Quote:
Then you ask for the metaphorical 'evidences' of my arguments considering the blind ? I like that.
i'm merely showing that either conclusion of your argument is problematic- either there's evidence to differentiate the blindness, in which case the the issue is no longer one of blindness. or on the other hand, there's no evidence to differentiate the blindness, in which case, why give in to speculation that is of the utmost idle nature?
Quote:
How does the blind man know, what to think of all that what is TOLD to him, or INDIRECTLY been tried to convince him of the seeing world ?
If all see and one is blind... if one sees and all are blind... majorities ? For sure not. 'Blind' believing ? For sure not. He tries to 'retrace' that what is told to him, or given into his hands, and tries to relate this to a visual world. So he 'knows', without having seen.
the blind man has senses besides sight that i imagine would confirm to him the superior power of the sighted- for example, i dunno, if the blind man and a sighted person were asked to identify objects on the other side of the room, without touching them until each placed their guess- the sighted person would always win, and the blind man could conclude that yes, indeed, the sighted person wins so often that they really must have some sense beyond the blind man's.
Quote:
The same for spiritual realms...
this doesn't seem so, since such "spiritual senses" don't seem to interact with the other senses in way. otherwise you'd expect things like clairvoyance to be a reality. yet clairvoyance has no evidence for its existence.
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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: crunchytoast]
#4972246 - 11/23/05 11:49 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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the blind man has senses besides sight that i imagine would confirm to him the superior power of the sighted- for example, i dunno, if the blind man and a sighted person were asked to identify objects on the other side of the room, without touching them until each placed their guess- the sighted person would always win, and the blind man could conclude that yes, indeed, the sighted person wins so often that they really must have some sense beyond the blind man's.
That experiment is not possible for the blind man in his blind world because he could not know, if the other one was told about the object before. The blind has to select the objects (and also the conditions and rules) for that experiment, but there could be still some gaps in prove, many possibilities to 'cheat'... funny idea..
I think that sounds quite similar to that, what we ask, and could be taken as rule for every transhuman intellectualized knowledge-transfer for some sure
edit: but if the gaps of proof are that, what's of interest for this thread, then the blindmen rules could also never close those gaps... I assume...
Edited by BlueCoyote (11/23/05 12:12 PM)
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