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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblespud
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Registered: 10/07/02
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Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing
    #4957037 - 11/19/05 08:14 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Does anyone find it odd that our tools of rational and logic guide us away from the Judeo-Christian God?

It's almost as if the more logical we become, the further we are from forming a transhuman relationship with the divine.

It's as if we are punished for intellect.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957064 - 11/19/05 08:23 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

"It's almost as if the more logical we become, the further we are from forming a transhuman relationship with the divine. "

i agree. i think god, the divine, is everything, an all encompassing being. he is tao, the totality.

Logic is a fairly narrow lens through which to view reality, so when we use it exclusively, we miss out on much of the transhuman experience of god that you are talking about.

however, this is just of true of christian beliefs, or buddhist beliefs, or whatever. if we become trapped by any single way of thinking, we miss out on alot of reality.

We can probably only have moments of "direct experience" with god when we are no longer making any attempt to reason... ego death


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957105 - 11/19/05 08:40 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Spud, I remember not too long ago, Toadie made a post where he was contemplating the possibility that after death, our mind would exist "eternally" due to the emission of DMT or something of the sort. I remember admiring the way that, in short, you assured him that after death, consciousness ceased to exist.

What happened?


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4957112 - 11/19/05 08:44 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

I was assuring him that any sort of neurological induced consciousness ceases to exist.

I can say that with much certainty.

As for some abstract notion of being, I would not even know how to go about defining it let alone proving it does/does not exist.

You can't argue the existence of something unless you define what it is.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957137 - 11/19/05 08:52 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

I'd say that reason and logic are not the only capabilities of the human mind. I believe in gnosis, which brings us closer to God, as I believe I have experienced it myself. I certainly think that logic and reason are useful tools, but I do not believe that they alone will guide one to the ultimate truth.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Silversoul]
    #4957138 - 11/19/05 08:53 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Logic doesn't play friendly with other tools.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957152 - 11/19/05 08:57 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Logic doesn't play friendly with other tools.



No, reductionism doesn't play friendly with other tools. Logic can work within different frameworks, as it requires premises to reach its conclusions.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Silversoul]
    #4957158 - 11/19/05 08:59 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

>> It's almost as if the more logical we become, the further we are from forming a transhuman relationship with the divine.

Try Buddhism!


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Silversoul]
    #4957167 - 11/19/05 09:02 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Logic is inherently reductionistic in nature.

And I'm not sure what you mean by

Quote:

Logic can work within different frameworks




Logic is always working, if anything it exposes a problematic nature of a framework.

Frameworks don't discredit logic, logic discredits frameworks.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957232 - 11/19/05 09:16 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

The only thing we can ultimately reduce reality to is our experience of it. As everyone's experience is different, it leads to different frameworks, which cannot be broken down further. Therefore, it seems a bit silly to me to say that logic would inevitably guide one away from God. It would guide some away from God if they did not have the experiences to confirm the existence of such a being. For others of us who have had spiritual experiences, it could lead one closer to God.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Silversoul]
    #4957245 - 11/19/05 09:18 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

The Gnostics actually attempted to abandon rational thought when persuing their religion.

Why? Because rational and Christianity don't mix.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957251 - 11/19/05 09:20 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

There's a difference between "abandon" and "transcend."


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Silversoul]
    #4957258 - 11/19/05 09:22 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

To transcend is to accept as a premise, which they did not.

They didn't concern themselves with rational, propositional, logical understanding.


Edited by spud (11/19/05 10:58 PM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957300 - 11/19/05 09:34 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

i think god makes sense.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: Deviate]
    #4957304 - 11/19/05 09:35 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

Thank you for sharing that incredibly deep and insightful post.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957580 - 11/19/05 10:49 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

:rofl:


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OfflineSketchyTX05
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: it stars saddam]
    #4957739 - 11/19/05 11:31 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

I didn't believe in the possibility of a God for a very long time. Being very logical (science) and rational, I found myself further and further denying even the remote possibility. And then I realized, a day after a heavy LSD trip, that, perhaps being "logical" and looking at the world through only what we see (and denying that there could be greater things not in our realm of potential knowledge) is kind of, well, ignorant in some ways. I sympathize with both viewpoints. Even though I admit the possibility of a God now, I continue to use logic in a way that won't harm my openness to ideas -- which is a very delicate balance.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: SketchyTX05]
    #4957814 - 11/19/05 11:53 PM (16 years, 12 days ago)

If something is not "within our realm of potential knowledge," it is quite irrelevant, no?


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OfflineUnagipie
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4957865 - 11/20/05 12:11 AM (16 years, 12 days ago)

I don't see how logic brings one away from God. It may bring one away from dogmas - but even the most ardent of "rationalists" mistake Biblical symbolism for historic truth. Of course the earth isn't 5,000 years old. It seems those that espouse unmitigated rationalism to replace any revered persuit of spiritual symbols fail to see the bigger, esoteric picture. They also over-estimate the intelligence of ancient civilizations, when humanity was essentially in its infancy. The truly rational person does not halt at a checkpoint that proves to only conjugate limits. When people imply that by default literal contradictions somehow disprove God's very immense reality-as-we-know-it, I do not see this as a conclusion. I see it as a preclusion. I see it as trying to hide something. My rational mind concludes that it only disproves the benighted mind-set of religious literalists who read scripture like it is a medical journal for the soul.


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Irony of Intellect in Perspective of Transhuman Knowing [Re: spud]
    #4959053 - 11/20/05 10:11 AM (16 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

spud said:
Does anyone find it odd that our tools of rational and logic guide us away from the Judeo-Christian God?

It's almost as if the more logical we become, the further we are from forming a transhuman relationship with the divine.

It's as if we are punished for intellect.




I don't find this to be the case personally. Maybe my logic is faulty. :grin: The more I understand the logic of my life and the world the more mysterious, spirit filled and divine things seem to me.
Maybe the problem is in the limited concept many people have of God. Which might well be illogical. 


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/20/05 10:12 AM)


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