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InvisibleRavus
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Nihilism
    #4623915 - 09/05/05 09:47 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Sometimes I feel like I've been dropped into a world of mindless sheep. They say to me, "Why not worship the Great Sheep in the Sky? We are more than animals, after all!"

Life is really amazing, isn't it? Billions of years of Darwinism in the making, and from this we get a brain and a short-lived experience. People squander this short-lived experience, like going down a grocery list: 20 years of schooling filled with teenage angst, 40 years of working filled with Zoloft and Viagra, 15 years of bitching about holes in failing organic structure of the animal, and then it ends. They've wasted their whole existence; not that it matters, as there's no way not to waste it, because it has no meaning. There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.

People try to fill the void with "meaning", despite the fact that they lack any evidence. For any mind even liberated with a small drop of Nihilism, the minds ask the people for evidence. "How do you know there is a Great Sheep in the Sky with sheep-like emotions? Isn't that a coincidence, to the extent of being a major lie?" They make up an answer, and continue to not care about evidence; this will at first baffle the Nihilist until he realizes what the purpose of the Sheep's delusions are. The Sheep doesn't want evidence, or logic, or science; he has enough of that in everyday reality, and all it does is create hopelessness in his primate mind. The only thing the Sheep wants from spirituality and God is a permanent fix; when you begin to realize this, religion will make a lot more sense. The heroin addict will defend his addiction to the bloody end, because what does he have to go back to anyway? Real life? As if that matters! He's found an answer, despite any lack of evidence; and to him, the answer of heroin is completely real, and when others criticize it, he'll react arrogantly. "You don't understand! Live with me a month, see the beauty of heroin and you'll change your ways, Nihilist!"

But it's not just religion; this fix extends to almost all endeavors of the Sheep. The Sheep will constantly put "meaning" into everything, because the only true purpose of their lives otherwise is short-sighted reproduction for natural selection. They say, "Evidence has shown us evolution! Death to evidence! I want happiness!" And then the Sheep will often create art with messages of hope, create philosophy that doesn't adhere to logic or reality, but still tries to give the other sheep hope. But humans are animals, and I wouldn't expect much more from animals; animals don't need knowledge as long as they have an answer, no matter how pseudoscientific and illogical it may be.

No matter how much these hairless monkeys progress, I think all the Sheep will look for a fix or two. A Nihilist is probably also looking for a fix in Nihilism; it's not like there's any meaning beyond it. There's nothing wrong with killing people, or destroying the earth, or letting the universe die, because anything that can be done is right and regulated by reality. No one's going to stop the gun from going off if you want to kill your enemy because it's entirely permissible, even natural, for the human condition. The fact that we can do something makes it entirely right! What would that do for the discussions on good and evil?

Isn't it odd to some people that religion even needs "Commandments" and "Laws" for their Sheep to follow? I mean, if there is a Higher Power, then something should happen when we try to kill another temporary monkey. Instead, all that happens is a flash of light, a loud bang and spurt of water filled with solutes. Is this "wrong"? If it's wrong, how come we can do it, and the only penalty we receive is from other Sheep like us? Not even the non-hairless monkey animals care; they seem to have realized, in their more primitive brains, that right and wrong don't exist. All that matters is whether you can do an action, and if you can do it, then it is wrong only by Sheepish standards.

Just my take on life.  :heart:


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4623935 - 09/05/05 09:53 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree for the most part. The only thing I have to add is that nihilism CAN be a depressing philosophy. I mean, nothing matters in the least, so why even bother living?

Religion and spirituality (I consider them to be different) CAN be good in that they give people hope and love. Personally I'd rather lead an enjoyable pointless existence rather than a depressing one. That's just me thogh.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Nihilism [Re: dblaney]
    #4623960 - 09/05/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ok so there is no meaning?

Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
    #4624045 - 09/05/05 10:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
Ok so there is no meaning?

Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.




Let us go somewhere indeed! Why not go get high? Or we can look for God. :wink:

But it doesn't matter, because no matter where we go, in the end humans almost always fall into the same grain of conformity. As long as you follow others, and believe what others say without questioning it, meaning will be all around you. You can find meaning in any cult or any street corner if you're thirsty enough for it; those with higher taste will go to Kabbalah and dead sects of modern religions.

Where would you go anyway? Where do you expect your thoughts to take you? Nihilism has no purpose, it's true; the primates around us will make up enough purpose to clog the air with its stench even in the most remote areas of the human mind.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4624056 - 09/05/05 10:44 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Sometimes I feel like I've been dropped into a world of mindless sheep. They say to me, "Why not worship the Great Sheep in the Sky? We are more than animals, after all!"

Life is really amazing, isn't it? Billions of years of Darwinism in the making, and from this we get a brain and a short-lived experience. People squander this short-lived experience, like going down a grocery list: 20 years of schooling filled with teenage angst, 40 years of working filled with Zoloft and Viagra, 15 years of bitching about holes in failing organic structure of the animal, and then it ends. They've wasted their whole existence; not that it matters, as there's no way not to waste it, because it has no meaning. There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.

People try to fill the void with "meaning", despite the fact that they lack any evidence. For any mind even liberated with a small drop of Nihilism, the minds ask the people for evidence. "How do you know there is a Great Sheep in the Sky with sheep-like emotions? Isn't that a coincidence, to the extent of being a major lie?" They make up an answer, and continue to not care about evidence; this will at first baffle the Nihilist until he realizes what the purpose of the Sheep's delusions are. The Sheep doesn't want evidence, or logic, or science; he has enough of that in everyday reality, and all it does is create hopelessness in his primate mind. The only thing the Sheep wants from spirituality and God is a permanent fix; when you begin to realize this, religion will make a lot more sense. The heroin addict will defend his addiction to the bloody end, because what does he have to go back to anyway? Real life? As if that matters! He's found an answer, despite any lack of evidence; and to him, the answer of heroin is completely real, and when others criticize it, he'll react arrogantly. "You don't understand! Live with me a month, see the beauty of heroin and you'll change your ways, Nihilist!"

But it's not just religion; this fix extends to almost all endeavors of the Sheep. The Sheep will constantly put "meaning" into everything, because the only true purpose of their lives otherwise is short-sighted reproduction for natural selection. They say, "Evidence has shown us evolution! Death to evidence! I want happiness!" And then the Sheep will often create art with messages of hope, create philosophy that doesn't adhere to logic or reality, but still tries to give the other sheep hope. But humans are animals, and I wouldn't expect much more from animals; animals don't need knowledge as long as they have an answer, no matter how pseudoscientific and illogical it may be.

No matter how much these hairless monkeys progress, I think all the Sheep will look for a fix or two. A Nihilist is probably also looking for a fix in Nihilism; it's not like there's any meaning beyond it. There's nothing wrong with killing people, or destroying the earth, or letting the universe die, because anything that can be done is right and regulated by reality. No one's going to stop the gun from going off if you want to kill your enemy because it's entirely permissible, even natural, for the human condition. The fact that we can do something makes it entirely right! What would that do for the discussions on good and evil?

Isn't it odd to some people that religion even needs "Commandments" and "Laws" for their Sheep to follow? I mean, if there is a Higher Power, then something should happen when we try to kill another temporary monkey. Instead, all that happens is a flash of light, a loud bang and spurt of water filled with solutes. Is this "wrong"? If it's wrong, how come we can do it, and the only penalty we receive is from other Sheep like us? Not even the non-hairless monkey animals care; they seem to have realized, in their more primitive brains, that right and wrong don't exist. All that matters is whether you can do an action, and if you can do it, then it is wrong only by Sheepish standards.

Just my take on life.  :heart:




you are same as them, they think you are wrong for not being a sheep, and you think they are wrong for being what they are and you call them sheep.
Both of you think you are right.
That's where all the problems start in our civilisation, they start in those people who think they are right


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4624080 - 09/05/05 10:52 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I usually don't assume I'm a sheep not because I'm really any different, but because to my knowledge I'm not actually following anyone as a sheep. I find Nietzsche and other's interesting, but I disagree with the majority of what these philosophers say, and in actuality I have no Jesus or Buddha that I look to for guidance.

I look at most humans as sheep who get distracted from our pointless existence by religions and spiritualities lacking evidence; I'm simply a human who gets distracted a human's pointless existence by looking into evidence and the simplest explanation (which is Nihilism). Either way, as I said in my post, I don't think they're wrong because if they can take that path, they will take that path; religion and spirituality are possibly the easiest paths to happiness out there. There's no more of that pesky logic needed; all you need to do is put faith in a Higher Power and voila! Life gains meaning like never before! You can even go through torture and crufixion and still forgive your enemies if you're deeply enough entrenched in this suspension of reality; the deeper the suspension of reality, the more shocks you have to absorb the impact when reality really starts to hit you.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4624682 - 09/06/05 08:29 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
I usually don't assume I'm a sheep not because I'm really any different, but because to my knowledge I'm not actually following anyone as a sheep. I find Nietzsche and other's interesting, but I disagree with the majority of what these philosophers say, and in actuality I have no Jesus or Buddha that I look to for guidance.

I look at most humans as sheep who get distracted from our pointless existence by religions and spiritualities lacking evidence; I'm simply a human who gets distracted a human's pointless existence by looking into evidence and the simplest explanation (which is Nihilism). Either way, as I said in my post, I don't think they're wrong because if they can take that path, they will take that path; religion and spirituality are possibly the easiest paths to happiness out there. There's no more of that pesky logic needed; all you need to do is put faith in a Higher Power and voila! Life gains meaning like never before! You can even go through torture and crufixion and still forgive your enemies if you're deeply enough entrenched in this suspension of reality; the deeper the suspension of reality, the more shocks you have to absorb the impact when reality really starts to hit you.




following someone is not inherently bad, if he is more intelligent, more wise, and stronger than you are. Do you honestly believe the majority of people could be anything other than sheep? They are like vagons in a train, the have no motor of their own, they can only be pulled or left behind. Not everyone has your ability to think. The poor things are stupid, and there is no cure for that.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4624698 - 09/06/05 08:45 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Nice post. Nihilism is a response to religion. No meaning is a belief same as religion. It doesn't matter to a Warrior what name the path has. You nailed it with your  :heart: in your thread title. " A path is just a path. They all lead into the bush and out again. In the end all paths meet. And the only thing that matters is, does this path have a heart."

For me everything is both. Meaning and no meaning occupy the same space. Both are "true". You are still trying to answer the question from your other thread. What is existence. You can't get there from here. Sheep are sheep. Don Juan called them Phantoms. You do not have to be amoung them. You can marvel at the Tao. You once said you feel seperate. What about the quantum field? How can you be seperate from Tao? You are Tao. You choose to feel seperate. You can feel the energy that flows in your veins, you can feel what it is to be human. But there is more. It never ends. Right on Ravus. Forget the sheep.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4624853 - 09/06/05 10:36 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Is this "wrong"? If it's wrong, how come we can do it, and the only penalty we receive is from other Sheep like us?




if someone arbitrarily harms you, is that right or wrong?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4625656 - 09/06/05 03:04 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

How can I call something that has already happened "wrong"? Would that take away the action, or make the suffering less, or serve any purpose?

We can label actions any way we want, but that doesn't mean the label is logical. We might call it wrong to arbitrarily harm someone, but in the end both right and wrong actions are the same; the distinction is only the superficial label. The actions themselves are both real in this universe, both utilize the same energy and wave particles.

Would you call it wrong for a meteor to slam into the earth and wipe out almost all multicellular life? What about if instead of a meteor, it was a series of man-made nuclear bombs? Is an action any more wrong if us hairless mammals do it than if it occurs by a mindless rock?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4625675 - 09/06/05 03:10 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Intent.


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: VirgilKane]
    #4625701 - 09/06/05 03:16 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

But does intent make an action wrong? In my opinion, the ends justify the means; the earth is destroyed still the same, whether it's a mindless asteroid or thousands of hydrogen bombs. Intent doesn't matter to the dying animals; death comes the same either way.

So what does intent add to the equation that the action itself does not? If the ends are the same, why does it even matter?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleVirgilKane
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4625740 - 09/06/05 03:27 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

From an entirely logical viewpoint, I guess nothing.

But what if everyone/everything was purely logic? All the religious bullshit aside, do you think you would like the world more if it were that way?


--------------------
Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense...

"Religion is a defense against a religious experience"
              Carl G. Jung

 
"So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience."
Terence McKenna


Edited by schapper (09/06/05 03:33 PM)


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4625773 - 09/06/05 03:40 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think that intent makes a difference on a more personal level, whereas the effects of an action or thought can be observed on a broader scale.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus] * 1
    #4626250 - 09/06/05 06:15 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.




I would have agreed with you even more if you just said, "There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here." Reproduction is just as meaningless as anything else.
There is really no reason for us to be concerned with future generations. It doesn't matter. If humanity continues or not, the universe will still roll along as it always has.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
    #4626261 - 09/06/05 06:17 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MJF said:
Ok so there is no meaning?

Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.




Move on to Epicureanism. Enjoy the void.


--------------------
PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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OfflineMJF
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4626313 - 09/06/05 06:32 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

MJF said:
Ok so there is no meaning?

Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.




Move on to Epicureanism. Enjoy the void.




Is that why the rich and powerful find it ok to pursue their happiness at the expense of others?


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OfflineCreativeLogic
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
    #4626505 - 09/06/05 07:32 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I agree Ravus.

Really there is no such thing as wrong or right when you are talking in the realms of beyond good and evil or right and wrong, just differences of perceptions. Eventually wrong and right meet at one central point, call it what you will, I call it "trust". So really wrong and right only exists in your perception of what's wrong and right for yourself.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: CreativeLogic]
    #4626551 - 09/06/05 07:43 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Everything is permitted. Not everything is expedient.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
    #4626802 - 09/06/05 08:31 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Ravus, I've said before that every post you make screams nihilism. Ironically this one ON nihilism does not. Sure there's some in there but you've warped it into fatalism which is something quite different. you've turned nihilism into a dark pit of hopelessness when it is anything but. Nihilism is pure freedom. Nihilism shows that nothing matters, that we are all animals. Nihilism wipes the slate. It is redemption. Don't you realise that nihilism lets you create your own reality? free from imported meaning handed down to you. (hehe yes i'm aware that it's ironic that i'm doing just that, but it seems you have not considered these points) If you choose to create a dark negative world for yourself, justified by fatalistic nihilism then I pity you. It's a cold dark path with only your death to look forward to. Nihilism makes you your own creator. Don't be a lazy creator, it's easy to create negativity. Nihilism does not negate joy, wonder or love. nihilism only gives one the freedom to place whatever value in them that one chooses and the knowledge that it is self assigned. My suggestion is to value those things highly.


Edited by psychomime (09/06/05 09:26 PM)


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