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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11383098 - 11/04/09 11:31 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

let's assume there is nothing after death... at all

would nothing really be all that bad? :shrug:


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


Edited by LuSiD9 (11/04/09 11:32 AM)


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11383117 - 11/04/09 11:33 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Freud liked death! :wink:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlineastronaut
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #11383148 - 11/04/09 11:37 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

astronaut said:
I don't see that as nihilism at all. To willfully self-destruct, there must be an aspiration -- that is, to be destroyed. Likewise, to willfully destroy, the aspiration is the same. The motivation may be aesthetic in nature (Cool, etc), or it may merely be a longing to recede into oblivion (Thanatos)... But whatever the case, nihilism as I understand it is not compatible with any aspiration. To me, nihilism is the absence of aspiration, and the complete halting of all constructive and deconstructive longings and tendencies.




If this is true then IMO Nihilism is not something we can live with. We do aspire. And without the basic instinctual urges would we not seek oblivion?




But are the "we" that aspire nihilists? I've at times lived without aspiration, and without a need to construct or deconstruct. I didn't care about anything, and nothing had any meaning to me. But you are right, part of me was driven towards oblivion. I wasn't consciously seeking out self-destruction, but it may have been an inadvertent result.

Eventually I did rebuild myself. But I live knowing that I've compromised part of myself to recapture meaning.

edit -- thinking back, I was in that space after deconstructing everything. Maybe I wasn't deconstructing, because there was nothing left to deconstruct.

edit #2 -- except empathy. that's one thing I never deconstructed, and ultimately it's what I used to pull myself back.

edit #2 -- is nihilism rock-bottom, or is it the path to rock-bottom (oblivion)? thinking about it now, I agree with your response, and think it's the latter, in which case oblivion is the aspiration of nihilism, and self-destruction is a method.


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!


Edited by astronaut (11/04/09 11:52 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: astronaut]
    #11383176 - 11/04/09 11:41 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

except empathy.

This is what aspires I'm guessing or something else for someone else, but always, even if buried in the background, something.

Otherwise, why would there be this coming back?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: demiu5]
    #11383222 - 11/04/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
as far as the roots of nihilism, i think maybe it stems from indulging in indulgence, or over indulgence




a life depraved of the ability to indulge can lead you to the exact same place

if life is shit... what's the fuckin point?

it's hard to find meaning in a shitty, boring, painful life... unless you believe it will be made up for in heaven.


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11384298 - 11/04/09 02:07 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
...
Well of course we seek relief from death anxiety. He chose a return to faith. I cannot. My personal goal if it's a realistic one is to slowly, consciously, condition myself to my anxiety. To lessen the impact, not in life so much but towards the final moments. I would like some feeling of composure at my dying but without the props of faith in something greater then death itself.




Not exactly something to build a family, tribe or society on...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11384889 - 11/04/09 03:12 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No I guess not. However there is no reason that  a more open discussion of death cannot take place. In Veritas home her children have no illusions about who dies and they absolutely do not believe in afterlife nonsense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #11386908 - 11/04/09 07:28 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

astronaut said:
I don't see that as nihilism at all




I don't understand how what I said could not be seen as nihilism




Quote:

astronaut said:
The motivation may be aesthetic in nature (Cool, etc)




I have never met anyone who became a nihilist to be cool... ever

I think science is what causes most people to become nihilists.. at least in my experience... that and depression


Quote:

Icelander said:
we are just living out the chaotically complex forces that spawned us, and which will one day reduce us to nothingness again.


This is all I see. Then of course the questions arises. What will I do?




exactly :thumbup:


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


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Offlineastronaut
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11386936 - 11/04/09 07:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LuSiD9 said:
Quote:

astronaut said:
I don't see that as nihilism at all




I don't understand how what I said could not be seen as nihilism




Quote:

astronaut said:
The motivation may be aesthetic in nature (Cool, etc)




I have never met anyone who became a nihilist to be cool... ever

I think science is what causes most people to become nihilists.. at least in my experience... that and depression






I meant to respond to the original post, not to you.

What I said is that the motivation to self-destruct may be aesthetic (as in, to be edgy or just 'cool').. but no, that's not nihilism. I agree that scientific rationality and depression may lead to nihilism.


--------------------
In another Time's Forgotten Space, your Eyes looked through your Mother's Face:
Wildflower Seed on the Sand and Stone, may the Four Winds blow you Safely Home!


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: astronaut]
    #11386979 - 11/04/09 07:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

oh ok... I see where you're coming from now astronaut


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: astronaut]
    #11387179 - 11/04/09 08:03 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I think depression leads to cynicism more than nihilism.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (11/04/09 08:04 PM)


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #11388281 - 11/04/09 10:56 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I guess it's more a potential symptom of depression than a result of it

and nihilistic thinking can easily pave the road towards depression for many



--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


Edited by LuSiD9 (11/04/09 11:00 PM)


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11388297 - 11/04/09 10:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

WE BELIEVE IN NOSSING LEBOWSKI!


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OfflineLuSiD9
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: learningtofly]
    #11388311 - 11/04/09 11:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
VEE BELIEF IN NOSSING LEBOWSKI!




fixed :wink:


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


Edited by LuSiD9 (11/04/09 11:03 PM)


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11389091 - 11/05/09 04:25 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
No I guess not. However there is no reason that  a more open discussion of death cannot take place. In Veritas home her children have no illusions about who dies and they absolutely do not believe in afterlife nonsense.




Good. But I'm just making a reminder that the conclusions we might draw are a philosophy for the few.


Edited by Lakefingers (11/05/09 10:04 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11389517 - 11/05/09 08:09 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

For who can stand it?:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #11389896 - 11/05/09 10:05 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

For who can understand it.


Edited by Lakefingers (11/06/09 01:39 AM)


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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #11389994 - 11/05/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
�Nihilism is . . . not only the belief that everything deserves to perish; but one actually puts one�s shoulder to the plough; one destroys�

What interests me in this quote is the word "deserves".

Opinions?




I don't think 'deserve' to perish. They are to perish no matter what. Nothing to do with 'deserving'.
Everything that is born must cease. Saying that something doesn't 'deserve' may feel true but it doesn't change a thing about the nature of reality.
That we have to destroy is unavoidable. All things become anew from the remnants of what ceased.

Nihilism is... denying the existence of anything. Which is wrong since things exist when they have arisen due to circumstances and conditions that caused them to do so.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11390006 - 11/05/09 10:28 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe we (us here) who think nihilism is valuable at least in part should create our own definition.

I think I will start a thread.:laugh: thanks.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Roots of Nihilism? [Re: Icelander]
    #11390871 - 11/05/09 01:21 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Fuck nihilism. :satansmoking:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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