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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Nihilism
#4623915 - 09/05/05 07:47 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sometimes I feel like I've been dropped into a world of mindless sheep. They say to me, "Why not worship the Great Sheep in the Sky? We are more than animals, after all!"
Life is really amazing, isn't it? Billions of years of Darwinism in the making, and from this we get a brain and a short-lived experience. People squander this short-lived experience, like going down a grocery list: 20 years of schooling filled with teenage angst, 40 years of working filled with Zoloft and Viagra, 15 years of bitching about holes in failing organic structure of the animal, and then it ends. They've wasted their whole existence; not that it matters, as there's no way not to waste it, because it has no meaning. There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.
People try to fill the void with "meaning", despite the fact that they lack any evidence. For any mind even liberated with a small drop of Nihilism, the minds ask the people for evidence. "How do you know there is a Great Sheep in the Sky with sheep-like emotions? Isn't that a coincidence, to the extent of being a major lie?" They make up an answer, and continue to not care about evidence; this will at first baffle the Nihilist until he realizes what the purpose of the Sheep's delusions are. The Sheep doesn't want evidence, or logic, or science; he has enough of that in everyday reality, and all it does is create hopelessness in his primate mind. The only thing the Sheep wants from spirituality and God is a permanent fix; when you begin to realize this, religion will make a lot more sense. The heroin addict will defend his addiction to the bloody end, because what does he have to go back to anyway? Real life? As if that matters! He's found an answer, despite any lack of evidence; and to him, the answer of heroin is completely real, and when others criticize it, he'll react arrogantly. "You don't understand! Live with me a month, see the beauty of heroin and you'll change your ways, Nihilist!"
But it's not just religion; this fix extends to almost all endeavors of the Sheep. The Sheep will constantly put "meaning" into everything, because the only true purpose of their lives otherwise is short-sighted reproduction for natural selection. They say, "Evidence has shown us evolution! Death to evidence! I want happiness!" And then the Sheep will often create art with messages of hope, create philosophy that doesn't adhere to logic or reality, but still tries to give the other sheep hope. But humans are animals, and I wouldn't expect much more from animals; animals don't need knowledge as long as they have an answer, no matter how pseudoscientific and illogical it may be.
No matter how much these hairless monkeys progress, I think all the Sheep will look for a fix or two. A Nihilist is probably also looking for a fix in Nihilism; it's not like there's any meaning beyond it. There's nothing wrong with killing people, or destroying the earth, or letting the universe die, because anything that can be done is right and regulated by reality. No one's going to stop the gun from going off if you want to kill your enemy because it's entirely permissible, even natural, for the human condition. The fact that we can do something makes it entirely right! What would that do for the discussions on good and evil?
Isn't it odd to some people that religion even needs "Commandments" and "Laws" for their Sheep to follow? I mean, if there is a Higher Power, then something should happen when we try to kill another temporary monkey. Instead, all that happens is a flash of light, a loud bang and spurt of water filled with solutes. Is this "wrong"? If it's wrong, how come we can do it, and the only penalty we receive is from other Sheep like us? Not even the non-hairless monkey animals care; they seem to have realized, in their more primitive brains, that right and wrong don't exist. All that matters is whether you can do an action, and if you can do it, then it is wrong only by Sheepish standards.
Just my take on life.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4623935 - 09/05/05 07:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree for the most part. The only thing I have to add is that nihilism CAN be a depressing philosophy. I mean, nothing matters in the least, so why even bother living?
Religion and spirituality (I consider them to be different) CAN be good in that they give people hope and love. Personally I'd rather lead an enjoyable pointless existence rather than a depressing one. That's just me thogh.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MJF
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Re: Nihilism [Re: dblaney]
#4623960 - 09/05/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok so there is no meaning?
Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4624045 - 09/05/05 08:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said: Ok so there is no meaning?
Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.
Let us go somewhere indeed! Why not go get high? Or we can look for God. 
But it doesn't matter, because no matter where we go, in the end humans almost always fall into the same grain of conformity. As long as you follow others, and believe what others say without questioning it, meaning will be all around you. You can find meaning in any cult or any street corner if you're thirsty enough for it; those with higher taste will go to Kabbalah and dead sects of modern religions.
Where would you go anyway? Where do you expect your thoughts to take you? Nihilism has no purpose, it's true; the primates around us will make up enough purpose to clog the air with its stench even in the most remote areas of the human mind.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4624056 - 09/05/05 08:44 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Sometimes I feel like I've been dropped into a world of mindless sheep. They say to me, "Why not worship the Great Sheep in the Sky? We are more than animals, after all!"
Life is really amazing, isn't it? Billions of years of Darwinism in the making, and from this we get a brain and a short-lived experience. People squander this short-lived experience, like going down a grocery list: 20 years of schooling filled with teenage angst, 40 years of working filled with Zoloft and Viagra, 15 years of bitching about holes in failing organic structure of the animal, and then it ends. They've wasted their whole existence; not that it matters, as there's no way not to waste it, because it has no meaning. There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.
People try to fill the void with "meaning", despite the fact that they lack any evidence. For any mind even liberated with a small drop of Nihilism, the minds ask the people for evidence. "How do you know there is a Great Sheep in the Sky with sheep-like emotions? Isn't that a coincidence, to the extent of being a major lie?" They make up an answer, and continue to not care about evidence; this will at first baffle the Nihilist until he realizes what the purpose of the Sheep's delusions are. The Sheep doesn't want evidence, or logic, or science; he has enough of that in everyday reality, and all it does is create hopelessness in his primate mind. The only thing the Sheep wants from spirituality and God is a permanent fix; when you begin to realize this, religion will make a lot more sense. The heroin addict will defend his addiction to the bloody end, because what does he have to go back to anyway? Real life? As if that matters! He's found an answer, despite any lack of evidence; and to him, the answer of heroin is completely real, and when others criticize it, he'll react arrogantly. "You don't understand! Live with me a month, see the beauty of heroin and you'll change your ways, Nihilist!"
But it's not just religion; this fix extends to almost all endeavors of the Sheep. The Sheep will constantly put "meaning" into everything, because the only true purpose of their lives otherwise is short-sighted reproduction for natural selection. They say, "Evidence has shown us evolution! Death to evidence! I want happiness!" And then the Sheep will often create art with messages of hope, create philosophy that doesn't adhere to logic or reality, but still tries to give the other sheep hope. But humans are animals, and I wouldn't expect much more from animals; animals don't need knowledge as long as they have an answer, no matter how pseudoscientific and illogical it may be.
No matter how much these hairless monkeys progress, I think all the Sheep will look for a fix or two. A Nihilist is probably also looking for a fix in Nihilism; it's not like there's any meaning beyond it. There's nothing wrong with killing people, or destroying the earth, or letting the universe die, because anything that can be done is right and regulated by reality. No one's going to stop the gun from going off if you want to kill your enemy because it's entirely permissible, even natural, for the human condition. The fact that we can do something makes it entirely right! What would that do for the discussions on good and evil?
Isn't it odd to some people that religion even needs "Commandments" and "Laws" for their Sheep to follow? I mean, if there is a Higher Power, then something should happen when we try to kill another temporary monkey. Instead, all that happens is a flash of light, a loud bang and spurt of water filled with solutes. Is this "wrong"? If it's wrong, how come we can do it, and the only penalty we receive is from other Sheep like us? Not even the non-hairless monkey animals care; they seem to have realized, in their more primitive brains, that right and wrong don't exist. All that matters is whether you can do an action, and if you can do it, then it is wrong only by Sheepish standards.
Just my take on life.
you are same as them, they think you are wrong for not being a sheep, and you think they are wrong for being what they are and you call them sheep. Both of you think you are right. That's where all the problems start in our civilisation, they start in those people who think they are right
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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I usually don't assume I'm a sheep not because I'm really any different, but because to my knowledge I'm not actually following anyone as a sheep. I find Nietzsche and other's interesting, but I disagree with the majority of what these philosophers say, and in actuality I have no Jesus or Buddha that I look to for guidance.
I look at most humans as sheep who get distracted from our pointless existence by religions and spiritualities lacking evidence; I'm simply a human who gets distracted a human's pointless existence by looking into evidence and the simplest explanation (which is Nihilism). Either way, as I said in my post, I don't think they're wrong because if they can take that path, they will take that path; religion and spirituality are possibly the easiest paths to happiness out there. There's no more of that pesky logic needed; all you need to do is put faith in a Higher Power and voila! Life gains meaning like never before! You can even go through torture and crufixion and still forgive your enemies if you're deeply enough entrenched in this suspension of reality; the deeper the suspension of reality, the more shocks you have to absorb the impact when reality really starts to hit you.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4624682 - 09/06/05 06:29 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: I usually don't assume I'm a sheep not because I'm really any different, but because to my knowledge I'm not actually following anyone as a sheep. I find Nietzsche and other's interesting, but I disagree with the majority of what these philosophers say, and in actuality I have no Jesus or Buddha that I look to for guidance.
I look at most humans as sheep who get distracted from our pointless existence by religions and spiritualities lacking evidence; I'm simply a human who gets distracted a human's pointless existence by looking into evidence and the simplest explanation (which is Nihilism). Either way, as I said in my post, I don't think they're wrong because if they can take that path, they will take that path; religion and spirituality are possibly the easiest paths to happiness out there. There's no more of that pesky logic needed; all you need to do is put faith in a Higher Power and voila! Life gains meaning like never before! You can even go through torture and crufixion and still forgive your enemies if you're deeply enough entrenched in this suspension of reality; the deeper the suspension of reality, the more shocks you have to absorb the impact when reality really starts to hit you.
following someone is not inherently bad, if he is more intelligent, more wise, and stronger than you are. Do you honestly believe the majority of people could be anything other than sheep? They are like vagons in a train, the have no motor of their own, they can only be pulled or left behind. Not everyone has your ability to think. The poor things are stupid, and there is no cure for that.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4624698 - 09/06/05 06:45 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nice post. Nihilism is a response to religion. No meaning is a belief same as religion. It doesn't matter to a Warrior what name the path has. You nailed it with your in your thread title. " A path is just a path. They all lead into the bush and out again. In the end all paths meet. And the only thing that matters is, does this path have a heart."
For me everything is both. Meaning and no meaning occupy the same space. Both are "true". You are still trying to answer the question from your other thread. What is existence. You can't get there from here. Sheep are sheep. Don Juan called them Phantoms. You do not have to be amoung them. You can marvel at the Tao. You once said you feel seperate. What about the quantum field? How can you be seperate from Tao? You are Tao. You choose to feel seperate. You can feel the energy that flows in your veins, you can feel what it is to be human. But there is more. It never ends. Right on Ravus. Forget the sheep.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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crunchytoast
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4624853 - 09/06/05 08:36 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Is this "wrong"? If it's wrong, how come we can do it, and the only penalty we receive is from other Sheep like us?
if someone arbitrarily harms you, is that right or wrong?
-------------------- "consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
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Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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How can I call something that has already happened "wrong"? Would that take away the action, or make the suffering less, or serve any purpose?
We can label actions any way we want, but that doesn't mean the label is logical. We might call it wrong to arbitrarily harm someone, but in the end both right and wrong actions are the same; the distinction is only the superficial label. The actions themselves are both real in this universe, both utilize the same energy and wave particles.
Would you call it wrong for a meteor to slam into the earth and wipe out almost all multicellular life? What about if instead of a meteor, it was a series of man-made nuclear bombs? Is an action any more wrong if us hairless mammals do it than if it occurs by a mindless rock?
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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VirgilKane
Miner for truth and delusion


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4625675 - 09/06/05 01:10 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Intent.
-------------------- Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense... "Religion is a defense against a religious experience" Carl G. Jung "So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
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But does intent make an action wrong? In my opinion, the ends justify the means; the earth is destroyed still the same, whether it's a mindless asteroid or thousands of hydrogen bombs. Intent doesn't matter to the dying animals; death comes the same either way.
So what does intent add to the equation that the action itself does not? If the ends are the same, why does it even matter?
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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VirgilKane
Miner for truth and delusion


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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4625740 - 09/06/05 01:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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From an entirely logical viewpoint, I guess nothing.
But what if everyone/everything was purely logic? All the religious bullshit aside, do you think you would like the world more if it were that way?
-------------------- Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense... "Religion is a defense against a religious experience" Carl G. Jung "So really, ordinary reality is a kind of chemical habit, sanctioned by culture, which says it's okay to use certain drugs, eat certain foods, and have certain sexual behaviors. However, when you transcend all this pre-conditioning by returning to the original wisdom of the animal body, then you discover this immense dimension of opportunity. For some people, it is a frightening risk. To me, that's the psychedelic experience." Terence McKenna
Edited by schapper (09/06/05 01:33 PM)
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dblaney
Human Being

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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4625773 - 09/06/05 01:40 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think that intent makes a difference on a more personal level, whereas the effects of an action or thought can be observed on a broader scale.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus] 1
#4626250 - 09/06/05 04:15 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.
I would have agreed with you even more if you just said, "There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here." Reproduction is just as meaningless as anything else. There is really no reason for us to be concerned with future generations. It doesn't matter. If humanity continues or not, the universe will still roll along as it always has.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4626261 - 09/06/05 04:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said: Ok so there is no meaning?
Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.
Move on to Epicureanism. Enjoy the void.
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MJF
Human Being


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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
MJF said: Ok so there is no meaning?
Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.
Move on to Epicureanism. Enjoy the void.
Is that why the rich and powerful find it ok to pursue their happiness at the expense of others?
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CreativeLogic
Land of no laws


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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4626505 - 09/06/05 05:32 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree Ravus.
Really there is no such thing as wrong or right when you are talking in the realms of beyond good and evil or right and wrong, just differences of perceptions. Eventually wrong and right meet at one central point, call it what you will, I call it "trust". So really wrong and right only exists in your perception of what's wrong and right for yourself.
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Icelander
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Everything is permitted. Not everything is expedient.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psychomime
o_O



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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4626802 - 09/06/05 06:31 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ravus, I've said before that every post you make screams nihilism. Ironically this one ON nihilism does not. Sure there's some in there but you've warped it into fatalism which is something quite different. you've turned nihilism into a dark pit of hopelessness when it is anything but. Nihilism is pure freedom. Nihilism shows that nothing matters, that we are all animals. Nihilism wipes the slate. It is redemption. Don't you realise that nihilism lets you create your own reality? free from imported meaning handed down to you. (hehe yes i'm aware that it's ironic that i'm doing just that, but it seems you have not considered these points) If you choose to create a dark negative world for yourself, justified by fatalistic nihilism then I pity you. It's a cold dark path with only your death to look forward to. Nihilism makes you your own creator. Don't be a lazy creator, it's easy to create negativity. Nihilism does not negate joy, wonder or love. nihilism only gives one the freedom to place whatever value in them that one chooses and the knowledge that it is self assigned. My suggestion is to value those things highly.
Edited by psychomime (09/06/05 07:26 PM)
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:
Ravus said: There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here besides reproducing, and as long as the human species continues, we can be as unhappy and miserable as we want, but all that matters is that new unhappy maggots will soon roam the planet.
I would have agreed with you even more if you just said, "There's nothing we're supposed to be doing here." Reproduction is just as meaningless as anything else. There is really no reason for us to be concerned with future generations. It doesn't matter. If humanity continues or not, the universe will still roll along as it always has.
It is true that on a personal level, our meaning is not reproduction; that is simply on the biological level. Reproduction has no foresight, as Darwinism only works in the present. Mutations do not plan for the future, but instead adapt to their current environment. So this "meaning" is anything but really; it is, in actuality, a logical process of constantly adapting to the present, without consciousness or meaning. It is simply a base biological duty to much life. Luckily, humans have evolved to think beyond the base biological duties, to the point that we have no biological responsibilities, not even our own survival as suicide shows.
The real difference between humans and the rest of the animals is that we don't have to follow our biological "purpose" if you will developed by natural selection. We don't have to survive, or expand, or reproduce; our brains have developed to such a size that some aspects of human life almost go against survival. Not that it really matters though. All the animals living in the present, simply reproducing and surviving until they die, will die off eventually just as we will; Darwinism has no foresight, and therefore the biological purpose of life, if you want to call it that, is a single blink of the eye that acts only to flex its own muscles.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
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Quote:
psychomime said: Ravus, I've said before that every post you make screams nihilism. Ironically this one ON nihilism does not. Sure there's some in there but you've warped it into fatalism which is something quite different. you've turned nihilism into a dark pit of hopelessness when it is anything but. Nihilism is pure freedom. Nihilism shows that nothing matters, that we are all animals. Nihilism wipes the slate. It is redemption. Don't you realise that nihilism lets you create your own reality? free from imported meaning handed down to you. (hehe yes i'm aware that it's ironic that i'm doing just that, but it seems you have not considered these points) If you choose to create a dark negative world for yourself, justified by fatalistic nihilism then I pity you. It's a cold dark path with only your death to look forward to. Nihilism makes you your own creator. Don't be a lazy creator, it's easy to create negativity. Nihilism does not negate joy, wonder or love. nihilism only gives one the freedom to place whatever value in them that one chooses and the knowledge that it is self assigned. My suggestion is to value those things highly.
Tell me, how can we go on without meaning? Yet meaning can be found by at any street corner; there are plenty willing to give you meaning for free. All that's required is faith. But I intuitively know this is not true meaning, because their meaning doesn't correspond to my reality. I can't mathematically prove it, but in my reality, meaning has to be absolute; I do not consider one person's opiate to be the universe's law.
Nihilism is the belief that nothing has any meaning or value. Everything humans believe is simply another opiate to take the edge off of a harsh, short existence. Science is just the theorizing of knowledge, but even science is simply a human opiate; many do not believe the theories, and the theories themselves are not absolute. They are constantly evolving and changing. To put your life into religion is to lay your foundation upon shallow, black water; to put your life into science is to put build your house upon a constantly shifting fault line. Either way, the only meaning we derive is the meaning that we ourselves put in there; if you add a marble into a chemical experiment, chances are you'll get a marble back out. But the marble itself is unchanged by the experiment; we simply forgot we put it in the there in the first place.
Nihilism cleans the slate, but it is not redemption, because there is nothing to redeem us from. There is nowhere we're trying to go besides death, and death takes no gifts or salvation; your body will fail the same whether you are a scientific Nihilist or a pope. Just like biologically the only purpose for life is to survive and reproduce, the only path we know we're all following is a temporary one, even if this does not decipher the nature of the path itself.
If you wiped your slate with Nihilism only to then turn around and create a philosophy based on faith and with the sole purpose of happiness, you would be a philosopher, but not a Nihilist. Any path I take I sense is useless, so the one with the least sunlight to burn me seems best to my reality. Let us all take the paths of our choosing, because travel will have to stop eventually; we might as well enjoy this meaningless sunset on the way.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?

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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4627523 - 09/06/05 09:08 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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You cannot find meaning in a religion, you give meaning to a religion. Meaning is subjective, even to the most ardent believer (though many will be hesitant to admit it). If life's pointless all you have to do is give it a point. Nihilism is a dead end. If nothing matters, choose to make something matter - there doesn't have to be a reason other than it's what you like, it doesn't have to make cosmic sense. Choose hedonism and have fun, you're gonna die anyway so WTF?
Just my take on it.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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MJF
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4627546 - 09/06/05 09:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ravus: You say you can't accept whatever meaning because you know it's not a true meaning....
there is no true meaning...so even the true meaning is not true.
So basically....all meanings are equal.
Edited by MJF (09/06/05 09:15 PM)
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crunchytoast
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4627577 - 09/06/05 09:17 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
How can I call something that has already happened "wrong"? Would that take away the action, or make the suffering less, or serve any purpose?
it would serve a purpose- being honest with oneself. you're talking like you can apprehend objective reality and see it's valueless. yet there is no reality without a subject perceiving it. all subjects have values. nihilism IMO is like denying one's inner capacity for judgment. denying this capacity makes one weak.
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We can label actions any way we want, but that doesn't mean the label is logical. We might call it wrong to arbitrarily harm someone, but in the end both right and wrong actions are the same; the distinction is only the superficial label. The actions themselves are both real in this universe, both utilize the same energy and wave particles.
what are energy and wave particles without observers to perceive them?
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Would you call it wrong for a meteor to slam into the earth and wipe out almost all multicellular life?
it's something i don't want. isn't knowing what i want useful to me?
it's like, people always give their opinions without prefacing, "i think, i believe, i prefer." because, for each person, their own subjective reality appears objective. when i talk about "the objective world", obviously i'm talking about my own subjective world.
i believe you're a naked mammal that experiences pleasure and pain, sadness and joy like every other naked mammal. thus i believe that you have values. what are values besides one's own real preferences?
-------------------- "consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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MJF
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nice post.
seeking pleasure and avoiding pain...is a pretty good meaning
Edited by MJF (09/06/05 09:23 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4628101 - 09/06/05 11:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said:
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MushmanTheManic said:
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MJF said: Ok so there is no meaning?
Now what? Nihilism goes nowhere....finding a meaning...even if it is not real....lets us go somewhere.
Move on to Epicureanism. Enjoy the void.
Is that why the rich and powerful find it ok to pursue their happiness at the expense of others?
No. "For Epicurus, the highest pleasure (tranquility and freedom from fear) was obtained by knowledge, friendship, and living a virtuous and temperate life...Epicureanism is probably the first philosophical school which introduced the social contract, in that the laws established by this school of thought are based on mutual agreement, not divine decree..."
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psyka
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4628825 - 09/07/05 04:33 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Letting go and relaxing are the greatest advantages of pleasant nihilism.
-------------------- As the life of a candle, my wick will burn out. But, the fire of my mind shall beam into infinite.

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Icelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4629023 - 09/07/05 07:56 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ravus said:
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psychomime said: Ravus, I've said before that every post you make screams nihilism. Ironically this one ON nihilism does not. Sure there's some in there but you've warped it into fatalism which is something quite different. you've turned nihilism into a dark pit of hopelessness when it is anything but. Nihilism is pure freedom. Nihilism shows that nothing matters, that we are all animals. Nihilism wipes the slate. It is redemption. Don't you realise that nihilism lets you create your own reality? free from imported meaning handed down to you. (hehe yes i'm aware that it's ironic that i'm doing just that, but it seems you have not considered these points) If you choose to create a dark negative world for yourself, justified by fatalistic nihilism then I pity you. It's a cold dark path with only your death to look forward to. Nihilism makes you your own creator. Don't be a lazy creator, it's easy to create negativity. Nihilism does not negate joy, wonder or love. nihilism only gives one the freedom to place whatever value in them that one chooses and the knowledge that it is self assigned. My suggestion is to value those things highly.
Tell me, how can we go on without meaning? Yet meaning can be found by at any street corner; there are plenty willing to give you meaning for free. All that's required is faith. But I intuitively know this is not true meaning, because their meaning doesn't correspond to my reality. I can't mathematically prove it, but in my reality, meaning has to be absolute; I do not consider one person's opiate to be the universe's law.
Nihilism is the belief that nothing has any meaning or value. Everything humans believe is simply another opiate to take the edge off of a harsh, short existence. Science is just the theorizing of knowledge, but even science is simply a human opiate; many do not believe the theories, and the theories themselves are not absolute. They are constantly evolving and changing. To put your life into religion is to lay your foundation upon shallow, black water; to put your life into science is to put build your house upon a constantly shifting fault line. Either way, the only meaning we derive is the meaning that we ourselves put in there; if you add a marble into a chemical experiment, chances are you'll get a marble back out. But the marble itself is unchanged by the experiment; we simply forgot we put it in the there in the first place.
Nihilism cleans the slate, but it is not redemption, because there is nothing to redeem us from. There is nowhere we're trying to go besides death, and death takes no gifts or salvation; your body will fail the same whether you are a scientific Nihilist or a pope. Just like biologically the only purpose for life is to survive and reproduce, the only path we know we're all following is a temporary one, even if this does not decipher the nature of the path itself.
If you wiped your slate with Nihilism only to then turn around and create a philosophy based on faith and with the sole purpose of happiness, you would be a philosopher, but not a Nihilist. Any path I take I sense is useless, so the one with the least sunlight to burn me seems best to my reality. Let us all take the paths of our choosing, because travel will have to stop eventually; we might as well enjoy this meaningless sunset on the way.
Very good Ravus. Right out of Castanada or the Tao. I wouldn't say that any path you take is useless though. One path may bring more energy for your experiencing of Tao. That would be your path with heart. But all the paths are equal if that's what you mean by useless.
I really like your post. I can tell that you have looked deeply into these questions. Keep going and report back. You're one of best thinkers here.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ravus
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So why take any paths at all Icelander? Is the experience enough of a reason to suffer the blows of time, even if the experience doesn't lead anywhere outside of itself? Is a universe without understanding and inherent value a universe fit for human consciousness?
"Of course," one would say, "such a vicious thing as human consciousness could not evolve anywhere else but in such a meaningless universe. Heaven would not evolve to any great lengths; neither would life grow without suffering and extinction." What does not kill me makes me stronger, but this quote doesn't just apply to us individually; it applies to all life. And the lack of meaning in the universe may make meaningless lives, but at least it hasn't killed us; perhaps such a universe is the only one we can exist in.
Existence lies beyond our comprehension, as does infinity; birth and death are simply two points on a line, and after we cross the latter the line inexplicably seems to end. One must occassionally wonder why the former point exists at all.
Temptation's page flies out the door You follow, find yourself at war Watch waterfalls of pity roar You feel to moan but unlike before You discover That you'd just be One more person crying.
While them that defend what they cannot see With a killer's pride, security It blows the minds most bitterly For them that think death's honesty Won't fall upon them naturally Life sometimes Must get lonely.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Icelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4630248 - 09/07/05 02:30 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Very beautiful Ravus, you captured a pure feeling.
Why take a path? Because you can't help it. Everything is a path. So choose one. Based on your innermost predilection. To survive the path of knowledge one must be a warrior. You know that Ravus. That means that every thing is a battle. The reward is to experience more and more of Tao. That is a path with heart. The Universe asks this one question. How much can you take? What does that mean? It means how much can you experience with your awareness. How much can you feel love and hate and loss and fullness. We are perceivers. That is our job in the Universe. To choose to experience only black or white, love or hate, joy or pain is to deny our heritage and is an unnecessary loss. Using death as our adviser we begin to use our time wisely.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: Nihilism [Re: dblaney]
#4630303 - 09/07/05 02:39 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney18 said: The only thing I have to add is that nihilism CAN be a depressing philosophy.
if nihlism is a depressing philosophy, then the suspossed philosophy wasn't nihilisim at all. 
Any conclusion that nihlism is depressing is baseless through nihlism itself.
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ravus
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Human emotional responses are always there, like the ashes from a leftover blaze. But the emotional responses themselves are not the philosophy, nor are they descriptive of the philosophy; they are simply byproducts.
With that said, most people will automatically link their emotional responses to the philosophy, despite the emotions being subjective. One man's depressing philosophy is another man's liberating enlightenment; it all simply depends on what kind of weight we want to carry around.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Icelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4630366 - 09/07/05 02:53 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right on. I myself have carried negative emotional states (fear, guilt, shame, insecurity,) most of my life. The legacy of my childhood indoctrination. To the best of my ability I want to try the opposite for awhile and balance things out a little.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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crunchytoast
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4630479 - 09/07/05 03:27 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
With that said, most people will automatically link their emotional responses to the philosophy, despite the emotions being subjective.
"objectivity" may be possible in the sense that a person can talk about facts, such as whether the earth is flat or round; but nihilism is a value statement. it asserts the nonexistence of "objective values," which are necessarily the philosopher's values.
we're the fatalistic interaction of desire and reality.
-------------------- "consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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psychomime
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4631765 - 09/07/05 08:07 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If you wiped your slate with Nihilism only to then turn around and create a philosophy based on faith and with the sole purpose of happiness, you would be a philosopher, but not a Nihilist. Any path I take I sense is useless, so the one with the least sunlight to burn me seems best to my reality. Let us all take the paths of our choosing, because travel will have to stop eventually; we might as well enjoy this meaningless sunset on the way.
perhaps not a nihilist in your own fatalistic definition but a nihilist none the less. Nihilism confirms the validity of all subjective paths as all paths are objectively meaningless. faith is the most important aspect of nihilism. faith is the mechanism by which one may follow their path. I acknowledge that my faith is objectively meaningless but that does not negate its value to me. you yourself have faith. Only you've placed it in the belief that no path you take would have any meaning. While you are right objectively, whether you're right subjectively is entirely up to you.
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Ravus
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Quote:
Nihilism confirms the validity of all subjective paths as all paths are objectively meaningless. faith is the most important aspect of nihilism. faith is the mechanism by which one may follow their path
Nihilism could care less about the paths. All Nihilism does is destroy them; after that, it's up to you to transcend it and become your own human being. But Nihilism in and of itself destroys meaning and value; it doesn't affirm anything, because to affirm something would place value or priority in it, which, of course, Nihilism doesn't have. In a meaningless void, standing still is the same as moving forward, or walking backwards.
Nihilism simply states that the universe, especially human life, is lacking any meaning or value. Does this affirm faith? Well, no; it seems to be the opposite of faith, since faith is a type of hope for meaning. We have "faith" in God, because we hope that he is real and contains the ultimate meaning. There's no way to verify it. If faith was allowable in Nihilism, then you could potentially have a theistic Nihilist, which is, of course, an absurdity.
Extreme Nihilism with faith in nothing, not even subjective knowledge, becomes Absurdism, which I do not subscribe to, otherwise I wouldn't be making this post right now. So the most faith any Nihilist will have is faith in his subjective knowledge, and this would indeed not allow for all paths unless he purposely became delusional while still believing in nothing. But faith in subjective knowledge would allow for subjective meaning, which is contradictary to true Nihilism, so is Absurdism the only pure type of Nihilism? Everything else has these poison drops of faith and hope mixed into distilled water, ultimately leaving a product much less poisoned than the alternatives, but still poisoned nonetheless.
If you deny Absurdism, then what basis do you have for having faith, even subjective faith? It's incredibly easy to deny all the mystical fog obscuring our vision and usher away the delusions of God, of oneness, of Heaven and Hell, of an afterlife and of absolute meaning in anything, but after you get to this point Nihilism has gone as far as it can. Afterwards, it's up to you to choose how much faith you would rediscover from your life experiences, or if you want any at all; but in my opinion, faith is extremely easy to overdose on and get back into the old delusions. Not that the answers as of yet have any meaning, but if humanity as a whole can shake off the old leeches stuck to their skin, afterwards we'll have to decide what to do with the old skeletons of meaning and faith, clinging to us like a skeleton with its hand still fused into our brains.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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psychomime
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4631845 - 09/07/05 08:28 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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well done Ravus. you're now arguing my point.
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Ravus
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Indeed I do not think so; faith is still poisonous to Nihilism, no matter which way you look at it. Faith and meaninglessness cannot co-exist, because faith exists for meaning; outside of meaning, faith has no purpose.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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psychomime
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4631865 - 09/07/05 08:35 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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"faith" is only the belief that you are right. I attach no religious or spiritual connotations to the word.
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Icelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4631869 - 09/07/05 08:37 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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How does nihilism destroy ones personal path?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ravus
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Quote:
Nihilism could care less about the paths. All Nihilism does is destroy them; after that, it's up to you to transcend it and become your own human being. But Nihilism in and of itself destroys meaning and value; it doesn't affirm anything, because to affirm something would place value or priority in it, which, of course, Nihilism doesn't have. In a meaningless void, standing still is the same as moving forward, or walking backwards.
If you read the quote in its entirety, you'll see that the lack of meaning or value rids the paths of any priority or reason for existing. The paths themselves may still be there, but without any meaning, what point do they have? It doesn't even matter where you go, or if you go anywhere at all; without meaning, staying in your same spot without evolving has no more priority than running full-speed to our death.
Perhaps it's better stated as, "Nihilism destroys the significance of the paths," but to the human mind, are they not one in the same? What is existence without significance?
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Icelander
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4632043 - 09/07/05 09:33 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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A path is traveled from the inside out. In my heart there is a path. It's "meaning" is in how I feel while traveling it. It's going nowhere, but what does that matter? It finds it's beginning and end in Tao. So what if nothing matters? I still can choose how I will feel about that. I can choose joy or sorrow. I have to believe that my path matters for my own wellbeing. It's the only choice I have to make. And it doesn't matter.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psychomime
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thanks icelander, thats the point I was making. You put it much better.
It seems Ravus, that you have trouble distinguishing between objective reality and subjective reality.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4633252 - 09/08/05 08:54 AM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: Human emotional responses are always there, like the ashes from a leftover blaze. But the emotional responses themselves are not the philosophy, nor are they descriptive of the philosophy; they are simply byproducts.
I agree with you, but my point is that if one were to logically follow through with the implications of nihlism, they wouldn't associate such a perspective with their emotional "meaning". 
Quote:
With that said, most people will automatically link their emotional responses to the philosophy, despite the emotions being subjective. One man's depressing philosophy is another man's liberating enlightenment; it all simply depends on what kind of weight we want to carry around.
Exactly, and one's philosophy naturally plays a part in what kind of meaning we wish to apply. If one person understands nihlism conceptually but emotionally rejects such thought as being depressing, they have created for themselves a conflict of perceiving a state with no meaning and then applying emotional meaning to that state, which, naturally, doesn't make the state of existance have no implied meaning. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Ravus
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Quote:
psychomime said: thanks icelander, thats the point I was making. You put it much better.
It seems Ravus, that you have trouble distinguishing between objective reality and subjective reality.
What's the difference? Both are just concepts.
And if concepts are only substance without meaning, objective and subjective become just syllables. Nothing can be objective or subjective, because both require some sort of system to exist in. But if the system is indeed just a flat plain where all flows and battles until it evaporates, then the substance is in itself indistinguishable. The reason there's so much discussion over subjectivity and objectivity is because neither exist; to exist, one requires the other. If you say, "Everything is subjective," then subjectivity becomes objective, unless there is actually an unknown objective system, in which case you'd be having faith in something you only imagine exists.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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BlueCoyote
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psycho, you are right, ravus lost/left the concepts of subjective and objective 
(And I don't want to start the mill again...but remember, if we hit a wall with our forehead and our nose starts bleeding, that wants to tell us something about objectivity)
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psychomime
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Quote:
(And I don't want to start the mill again)
I hear that brother! Ravus, thank you for your well thought out arguments. it has been a pleasure.
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MJF
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634036 - 09/08/05 01:56 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said:
Quote:
psychomime said: thanks icelander, thats the point I was making. You put it much better.
It seems Ravus, that you have trouble distinguishing between objective reality and subjective reality.
What's the difference? Both are just concepts.
And if concepts are only substance without meaning, objective and subjective become just syllables. Nothing can be objective or subjective, because both require some sort of system to exist in. But if the system is indeed just a flat plain where all flows and battles until it evaporates, then the substance is in itself indistinguishable. The reason there's so much discussion over subjectivity and objectivity is because neither exist; to exist, one requires the other. If you say, "Everything is subjective," then subjectivity becomes objective, unless there is actually an unknown objective system, in which case you'd be having faith in something you only imagine exists.
is this a subjective or objective statement? they can be the same but still different.
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Ravus
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4634065 - 09/08/05 02:05 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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If we pretend for a moment that objectivity exists, it would still be subjective. For us to perceive the difference, objectivity must first become subjective; we cannot perceive objectivity, think objectivity, or rationalize objectivity, because all human functions are subjective to the meaningless human itself, even the idea of the functions and objectivity. Objectivity is itself subjective, and co-exists as the same substance as subjectivity.
But if you say that everything is subjective and there is no objectivity, then all that would exist is subjectivity with nothing else out there, and then the line between subjectivity and objectivity becomes truely blurred beyond the simple arguments right now. Objectivity and subjectivity cannot co-exist together, because it would require either subjectivity to become part of objectivity or objectivity to become a part of subjectivity. If you are part of an objective universe, then you are a subjective interpretation of it (which we cannot confirm, and which I do not subscribe to, because an objective universe would require a source of objectivity in my opinion). But if the universe is actually part of your subjective mind, and the only boundaries are the boundaries of your mind, then what? This is far more verifiable than the other perspective; we can easily verify subjectivity, because we're living it right now.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634119 - 09/08/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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rav, it sounds weird, but with the two concepts of (budhist)meditation about 'samatha' and especially 'vipassana' you learn also very much abour objectivity. I can't follow your exlplanations well, perhaps because they are beyond the concept of meaning? Sorry, didn't want to disturb...just carry on
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MJF
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re: Ravus what is the difference between a meaning and a reason?
things don't happen for any old reason...but specific ones. The car blew up because a terrorist put a bomb in it. That is the meaning of the bomb.
Meaninglessness can be a meaning. You can't possibly know the objective meaning (could be meaninglessness or maybe for the entertainment of some alien race...who knows).
Edited by MJF (09/08/05 03:01 PM)
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Delusion_of_Self
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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634301 - 09/08/05 03:11 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ravus said: If we pretend for a moment that objectivity exists, it would still be subjective. For us to perceive the difference, objectivity must first become subjective; we cannot perceive objectivity, think objectivity, or rationalize objectivity, because all human functions are subjective to the meaningless human itself, even the idea of the functions and objectivity.
When a person is dreaming he can do basically anything but it's all a dream between the many, but it's just a dream. But when you wake up you can really see everything for what it is or wouldn't that be the case?
Objectivity is itself subjective, and co-exists as the same substance as subjectivity.
I think it is One objective that is dreaming one subjective that has multiplied.
But if you say that everything is subjective and there is no objectivity, then all that would exist is subjectivity with nothing else out there, and then the line between subjectivity and objectivity becomes truely blurred beyond the simple arguments right now. Objectivity and subjectivity cannot co-exist together, because it would require either subjectivity to become part of objectivity or objectivity to become a part of subjectivity. If you are part of an objective universe, then you are a subjective interpretation of it (which we cannot confirm, and which I do not subscribe to, because an objective universe would require a source of objectivity in my opinion). But if the universe is actually part of your subjective mind, and the only boundaries are the boundaries of your mind, then what? This is far more verifiable than the other perspective; we can easily verify subjectivity, because we're living it right now.
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Delusion_of_Self
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In duality we can shift to intellect (adam) or emotions (eve) but there exist a is a third option...none. And by that I mean no shift.
-------------------- "It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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MJF
Human Being


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Joining the two together.
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MushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
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The only way to truely believe in Nihilism is not to believe in it.
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Delusion_of_Self
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It's all the same...it's only one real way...God being Absolute can be approached in the way of unity, Love. We just have to get pass duality.
-------------------- "It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
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Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: The only way to truely believe in Nihilism is not to believe in it.
That's where Absurdism would come in, but I'm not ready to give up faith in knowledge yet. I wonder if sanity would remain if that was the case.
But lately I have been trying to incorporate more Absurdist periods, like a meditation of sorts. Absurdism cannot co-exist with philosophy however, even Nihilism itself; once you cross that line, all the bullshit is filtered out. Yet as I've seen it, life itself is a manure sculpture. Take away the bullshit, and you're taking away the medium life communicates in, as nothing should be significant.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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Delusion_of_Self
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Re: Nihilism [Re: MJF]
#4634433 - 09/08/05 03:42 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MJF said: Joining the two together.
I guess balance in oneness is the ever culmination of an absolute sincere seeker.
-------------------- "It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4634474 - 09/08/05 03:50 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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The meaning of existence can never be directly percieved and no certian conclusions can be made about it. Everything, in essence, is unknowable. BUT! We can, through empiric investigations, figure out what MIGHT 'really' be happening. Data points us in certain directions. A has more support than B, so A has a higher probability of being true. We just have to make the leap of faith that Solipsism is false and our perceptions are based on something from actuality.
I would never say that I "believe in Nihilism", but I do think its most likely correct. Maybe I am a Probabilitist?
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crunchytoast
oppositional

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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#4635453 - 09/08/05 08:13 PM (18 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
But if the universe is actually part of your subjective mind, and the only boundaries are the boundaries of your mind, then what?
if i understand correctly, if nihilism is the statement that no values exist, and everything is subjective, then it's more or less the statement that you have no values.
do you find this to be true?
my guess is once "meaning" is eviscerated, what you're left with is animal impulses.
-------------------- "consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: Nihilism [Re: Ravus]
#6490886 - 01/23/07 09:41 PM (17 years, 8 days ago) |
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I this thread.
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aelephant
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Does it matter that nothing matters? Nihilism undermines itself quite easily. If you are truly a nihilist then you would agree that it does not matter that nothing matters.
As far as subjectivity/objectivity goes, I believe there is no objectivity. What we perceive as objective is just an example of building an answer to fit the question. All we've got in the realm of objectivity is probability. Does this matter? No. It can be useful, however, depending on what one chooses to use it for.
My question for Ravus is thus:
Why must your reason have an absolute meaning? If you put this condition on it, you will never find any reason to do anything. For what REASON do you require an absolute meaning?
-------------------- As we live a life of ease, Everyone of us has all we need Sky of blue and Sea of Green In our Yellow Submarine
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance


Registered: 04/04/05
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Loc: Time and Space
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What's the point of seeing everything with no values, no meaning? There is no point. Just like there is no point in putting meaning into things. Why do I do it? Because it makes me feel happy, it makes life more interesting to see what kind of realities my mind can create, to explore different possibilities.
You create your own reality. I remember going through my nihilistic period. I would think "The ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate truth. That means that everything is pointless." But, like aelephant said, I later realized this meant that nihilism was also pointless. The truth of nihilism wasn't any more true than anything else. Putting meaning into things was only pointless if I made it pointless. The problem with nihilism is that it's a belief disguised as Truth.
If you look at your life as a linear progression than sure there is no ultimate point, no goal - if you live in the moment, you aren't even thinking in terms of "why" or "what is the meaning behind this." The meaning is present in the moment. What I am trying to express here is that your "knowledge" or "wisdom" is bullshit - the only thing that is real is what is happening right now within or without your conceptual framework, whether nihilistic or hedonistic. Your nihilism is philosophy, not truth.
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Edited by cowabunga_dude (01/24/07 07:07 PM)
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Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker


Registered: 07/18/03
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Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
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Quote:
Why must your reason have an absolute meaning? If you put this condition on it, you will never find any reason to do anything. For what REASON do you require an absolute meaning?
What is reason and meaning that cannot be verified, that will not sustain itself with any length of time and that even the perceiver cannot believe in absolutely? The reason to do anything is that whether you do an action or do not do it, it is equally meaningless. Nihilism is not suicidal for this reason, because death contains no more hope than experience.
If you perform an action and a hundred years from now there is no recollection of that action, no positive or negative change in the universe and no one left to remember what you have done, your action is already meaningless. You may create false delusions in an attempt to make yourself happy, but happiness will also be forgotten and leave no effect on the environment around you. The otherworldly "meaning" created by dogmatic religions and blind spirituality may make some happy during their lifetime, but in most cases people end up dying for this meaning, and in the end it and all the casualties it caused are not even remembered. What's the point of that? And the truth of the matter is that meaning doesn't even usually accomplish the short-lived goal of happiness, as people become too attached to their meaning to adapt or thrive in an environment that doesn't support the meaning they've created for themselves. Those with no meaning can take in their perception and experience without boundaries, and can further eschew cognitive biases in an attempt to evade the contradictions abounding in the reality around them.
-------------------- So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Quote:
cowabunga_dude said: What's the point of seeing everything with no values, no meaning? There is no point. Just like there is no point in putting meaning into things. Why do I do it? Because it makes me feel happy, it makes life more interesting to see what kind of realities my mind can create, to explore different possibilities.
Hhmm... sounds like a point to me.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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I've never known any nihilists beyond acquaintance so I can't claim to be knowledgeable on their lifestyles but I can't understand why someone would actively support such beliefs throughout their lifetime. Meaning, just because one believes not a single thing has divine purpose or meaning why should that stop them from still having their fun while they're here? But on the other hand, I understand that strong personal beliefs can and will determine the manner in which you live your life, because the value you attribute to any aspect of it will be in regards to your beliefs.
I myself like to think of things as positive or negative, constructive or destructive. Not that everything must conform to these two classifications but the majority would, maybe some would even cycle between the two based on external variables. It's hard to classify Nihilism in regards to these classifications though. Not that one has to, but anyway.. Would it denote positivity or negativity? It seems to me that Nihilism is radically neutral, so it must be neither, yes or no? What would cause it be one or the other?
It would probably rely on the individual. Would a lack of constructive action equate to support for destructive action? And if it did then would it enter the realm of destructiveness? For example, a nihilist may have no regard for the world around them, the people, the future condition of the world and the people in it and therefore their inaction may result in a diminished quality of life, denoting again the destructive categorization. At the same time, the nihilist may not actively be supporting negativity, it is only in the lack of action that it results. So where does that leave us?
I have rambled far too long without really saying much have I?
-------------------- From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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