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OfflineXeny

Registered: 02/15/08
Posts: 387
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11405174 - 11/07/09 01:59 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

the next step for icelander would be a book


--------------------
Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Xeny]
    #11405246 - 11/07/09 02:14 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I have too little interest even if I could.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11410225 - 11/08/09 09:45 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
OK I'll try to explain my "logic":lol:

Nihilism doesn't say that something is correct. It's says imo that our values are inherently meaningless. So I accept this premise. Knowing that I still may adopt any subjective meaning I want for my life as long as I acknowledge that my meanings are inherently meaningless. I can adopt a positive outlook on the experience of being alive temporarily. Now maybe I should have included the fact that we can adopt a negative outlook also. It also would be subjective and inherently meaningless.

In other words once I accept the basic premise of nihilism then I can do whatever I please. I'm free to follow my subjective whim.

By creating subjective meaning I know I am no longer within the definition of nihilism proper but why should that matter to me? I can have my cake and eat it to so to speak. One is free to carry on.

I know this seems sloppy, but my position is that while I believe nihilism to be realistic (at least my definition of it) it does not lend itself to a way of living considering that we are a meaning making animal. :shrug: I'm willing to be illogical here for the sake of my well being knowing I'm being illogical and knowing there is a higher "truth".




If you accept that as a premise there is not much I can do. I don't accept the premise that our values are inherently meaningless. I'd rather say that our values are universally, perhaps even ontologically meaningless, but ethically, metaphysically, epistemologically, personally they are filled with meaning.

I also disagree that you "may adopt any subjective meaning", because for the most part we inherit meaning and or are given it as a reaction or result of our environment. For instance, your nihilism, as you've often pointed out, clearly stems from a trajectory that was set for you by your parents.

Even if you adopt the "basic premise of nihilism" ("you can do whatever you please"), this only guarantees that you are logically free. Whether your will is actually free to do these things is another thing nihilism won't establish for you.

"I'm free to follow my subjective whim" means that in a logically possible world where the subject was free, it could follow its whims.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11410280 - 11/08/09 10:00 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Good post.

By "inherently" meaningless I'm saying as far as any ultimate meaning. Ultimate meaning is unknowable so as far as we are concerned does not exist. Subjectively of course we create the only meaning we will ever know.  This fits in with my idea that one may choose his path to some degree.

While it's true we inherit meaning through culture etc. There is wiggle room. I was brought up fundy christian. I wiggled into something else over time. While we are not filled to the brim with free will we do have limited choice. This is what I'm addressing of course.

Your points are valid.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11410467 - 11/08/09 10:38 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Alright. In that sense of inherent I don't think there is inherent meaning either. I've already reached the point where I understand that the only thing that can secure that inherent value is a supernatural belief, such as a "God" outside the universe who keeps track of every event and by this anal bookkeeping makes sure everything is recorded and meaningful/valuable.

...which is just a round about way for, you guessed it, soothing death anxiety.

But also, the logical criteria of supernatural beliefs are just too crude for thinkers like myself. My criteria for proof is much higher and I can't cut it lower having studied, learned, unlearned, seen and reasoned all that I have.

However, that values are 'wiggly' doesn't make them less valuable for me. It's closer to it making them more valuable. What's valuable must be rare... not mass-produced values like say routine Christianity. The magic of values is in their locality and temporality. Begging for values to be inherently meaningful/valuable is like begging for a knife to have neither a blade nor a handle.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11410498 - 11/08/09 10:43 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

that values are 'wiggly' doesn't make them less valuable for me. It's closer to it making them more valuable. What's valuable must be rare... not mass-produced values like say routine Christianity. The magic of values is in their locality and temporality. Begging for values to be inherently meaningful/valuable is like begging for a knife to have neither a blade nor a handle.

Yes indeedy. I have come to the same conclusion. My subjective values give "meaning" to my experience and nothing else. Groking that a tiny bit is one of the major accomplishments of my life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLuSiD9
reality is plastic
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Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/06/06
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11441935 - 11/12/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

"The morality of rules and regulations based on rewards and punishments, even when these are as intangible as the pain of guilt and the pleasure of self- respect, has no relation to free action. It is a way of ruling slaves by benevolent exploitation of their illusions, and, however far pursued, can never lead to freedom."

- Alan Watts


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


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Offlineseraphnz
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Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 290
Loc: vally of the real
Last seen: 1 month, 27 days
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: LuSiD9]
    #11442359 - 11/12/09 05:01 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

LuSiD9 said:
"The morality of rules and regulations based on rewards and punishments, even when these are as intangible as the pain of guilt and the pleasure of self- respect, has no relation to free action. It is a way of ruling slaves by benevolent exploitation of their illusions, and, however far pursued, can never lead to freedom."

- Alan Watts




Indeed.

Makes me think of a society where nihilism could prosper in a sense.
But could it? Even without the rules of the road set in place, some people will always be that herd type of human being.

Born to follow.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: seraphnz]
    #11442385 - 11/12/09 05:04 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I have stated this in several different ways in other threads but in relation to the freedom  nihilism might offer, only a fraction of a percent could embrace it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineseraphnz
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Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 290
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11442428 - 11/12/09 05:12 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I think maby thats because to appreciate the finer points of nihilism, morally.. It has to come from some root of personal experience.

Sure you can read up as much as you want on it but that's different from been able to relate to the approach.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: seraphnz]
    #11442483 - 11/12/09 05:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

true enough as with all real belief

"What the thinker thinks, the prover proves"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleLakefingers

Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11608729 - 12/08/09 03:51 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

For future reference in case anyone digs up this thread in a search:

The Four Frameworks from which We Understand the Meaning of Life


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OfflineLuSiD9
reality is plastic
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Re: THE NIHILISM THREAD. [Re: Icelander]
    #11612768 - 12/08/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I have stated this in several different ways in other threads but in relation to the freedom  nihilism might offer, only a fraction of a percent could embrace it.




qft


--------------------
Nothing is true, everything is permissible.

Our laws make law impossible; our liberties destroy all freedom; our property is organized robbery; our morality an impudent hypocrisy; our wisdom is administered by inexperienced or mal-experienced dupes; our power wielded by cowards and weaklings; and our honour false in all its points. I am an enemy of the existing order for good reasons.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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